Could you see a future government apologising for liberalisation?

freshpopcorn

At the moment and over the past few years we've seen the government apologising for the wrong doings of the past. IE when homosexuality used be criminalised. (I'm not refereeing to abuse within schools/etc.)
So, in the past 25 years or we've seen homosexuality decriminalised, divorce being introduced, Same-Sex marriage and repealing the eighth amendment.
Going by posts in After Hours most people here favored these things here. So, we all backed these things because we thought it was the right thing to do.
However I've spoken to people who in the 70/80's supported how the country was run because they also believed it was the right thing to do.(Some have changed their opinions and others haven't).
So, does anybody think that in the future we might end up more conservative again? or that a future government might have to apologise for our generation?
Probably not in my opinion.

Taytoland

You are a meek people, so probably not. Although hopefully the conservative movement rises once again. Best chance would be the influx of more Islam on society, so the focus can switch.

strandroad

I certainly hope that Ireland won't start jailing gays, banning divorce, locking up girls and women etc again. So hopefully not.

freshpopcorn

strandroad wrote: »

I certainly hope that Ireland won't start jailing gays,

How about just Darren Kennedy and James Kavanagh?

TheValeyard

Swings and roundabouts. Societies can easily change given the right set of conditions.









Under His Eye

One eyed Jack

freshpopcorn wrote: »

So, does anybody think that in the future we might end up more conservative again? or that a future government might have to apologise for our generation?
Probably not in my opinion.

I'd say we will, because right now, we're still a fairly homogenous society that's culturally about 20 odd years behind both of our major cultural influences - America to the left, and Europe to the right.

Both those mainlands have one thing in common that Irish society really doesn't to any great degree - multiculturalism.

Leo is already on the case

Can't see him making any apologies for it though :pac:

Atlantic Dawn

If they start feckin around with common sense like seperate Male and Female toilets and bringing in single sex or a 3rd or 4th option they will need to apologise for fecking up mens lives when they need to go for a quick trip to the jacks to find it has been turned in to a glorified fashion show.

Wibbs

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Swings and roundabouts. Societies can easily change given the right set of conditions.

Very much so. There is a tendency for every society to believe that "now" is better than "then". Though it can go the other way too, usually with the old reversing that belief. Both see change, but can't quite imagine change going against them. There are quite the number of examples of societies that were more liberal and then became more hardcore, even totalitarian and often remarkably quickly. The Mob™ tend to pendulum and if the Money™ follows then that's the society you get.

The other aspect is people tend to forget that they're a product of their current environment. If Boards.ie was running in 1948 Ireland, the religious forum would be the Catholic forum, vanishingly few of the same people today trumpeting their "religion is BS" line would be doing so back then and criticism of the Church if it came along would be either very tame or a banable offence in the charter. Those who sport rainbow avatars campaigning for abortion and Gay rights would almost certainly be sporting Padre Pio avatars and campaigning against such things. Actual rebels are always a minority against the consensus. The small cadre of other users you disagree with and may consider to be trolls and muppets and whateverists are the "rebels" of today.

Under His Eye

Outlaw Pete

Well, if you're reading this thread in the future Mr/Ms/Hen Taoiseach: apology not accepted!!

Arghus

Well if it's the type of potential government of the future that will roll back on the liberalisation of today, then they'll be the not apologising type.

Sweetemotion

strandroad wrote: »

I certainly hope that Ireland won't start jailing gays, banning divorce, locking up girls and women etc again. So hopefully not.

All of that would have happened without liberalisation.

I think he meant, Jailing people because the woman must alway be believed.

Naming the accused but not the accuser, destroying lives on a whim.

Being labeled a Nazi, just because you hold a different view.

Made to feel embarrassed and ashamed for simply being born a cis white male.

Told your masculine nature is toxic.

Sweetemotion

Radical feminist women having baby boys is going to be a big one.

Yer Da sells Avon

freshpopcorn wrote: »

So, in the past 25 years or we've seen homosexuality decriminalised, divorce being introduced, Same-Sex marriage and repealing the eighth amendment.

I can't imagine any future government having any reason to apologise for any of those things because there has to be a perceived victim for an apology to be necessary. The legalisation of homosexuality, divorce, same sex marriage and (the forthcoming legalisation of) abortion didn't negatively impact upon - or take rights away from - any person.

Although if it somehow turns out that all the anti-immigration whingebags are right and teh Muslamics take over, then I suppose all bets are off (not least because gambling is forbidden).

oneilla

freshpopcorn wrote: »

At the moment and over the past few years we've seen the government apologising for the wrong doings of the past. IE when homosexuality used be criminalised. (I'm not refereeing to abuse within schools/etc.)
So, in the past 25 years or we've seen homosexuality decriminalised, divorce being introduced, Same-Sex marriage and repealing the eighth amendment.
Going by posts in After Hours most people here favored these things here. So, we all backed these things because we thought it was the right thing to do.
However I've spoken to people who in the 70/80's supported how the country was run because they also believed it was the right thing to do.(Some have changed their opinions and others haven't).
So, does anybody think that in the future we might end up more conservative again? or that a future government might have to apologise for our generation?
Probably not in my opinion.

Going by threads started here, quite a many poster dislikes Muslims, travellers, gays, trans people, feminists, anyone and everyone in receipt of social welfare and so and so forth.

Maybe there'll be a government one day made up of After Hours posters which will apologise and bring Ireland back to the 19th century.

P.S divorce is still quite restrictive requiring a 4 year separation.

Wibbs

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Although if it somehow turns out that all the anti-immigration whingebags are right and teh Muslamics take over, then I suppose all bets are off (not least because gambling is forbidden).

Or that they don't do loans with interest. Usury. Mortal sin, haraam, piss off banks. The Money™ really don't like that shit. One might muse that this is one of the background reasons why "Muslims get out" is a thing?

Wibbs

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

I can't imagine any future government having any reason to apologise for any of those things because there has to be a perceived victim for an apology to be necessary. The legalisation of homosexuality, divorce, same sex marriage and (the forthcoming legalisation of) abortion didn't negatively impact upon - or take rights away from - any person.

True, but we live in a culture where every demographic is hunting for and usually getting "victim" status. We have become a fractured society of ever increasing victimhood looking for a victimiser. When even middle class heterosexual white men are in the running for same then one has to ask questions of where this is going.

Yer Da sells Avon

Wibbs wrote: »

When even middle class heterosexual white men are in the running for same then one has to ask questions of where this is going.

As a middle-class, heterosexual, white, cis man, I can't think of any non-spurious reasons to consider myself a victim of discrimination.

Absolutely not. All the bad things happened in the past because they were all backward way back then with false certainties.


With all our true certainties about life, we're incomparably more enlightened and people in the future will definitely not look back at our economic liberalisation as a sign of an environment-polluting backward people with a crazily fundamentalist, all-pervasive consumerism who are quite happy to reduce workers' rights and conditions of employment while allowing the richest in society to avoid paying tax and for inequality to grow to levels unseen since before the Welfare State was created in the late 1940s.

Bad things = past. Let's keep the outrage directed there and away from what's going on today, thank you very much.

suicide_circus

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

As a middle-class, heterosexual, white, cis man, I can't think of any non-spurious reasons to consider myself a victim of discrimination.

How meekly you wear your chains..

Irish Guitarist

I don't know about Ireland but I can see it happening in America. I can envision a lot of 'transgender' children growing up and realising that just because they went through a phase of liking the colour pink or playing with dolls when they were six years old doesn't mean they were transgender. They'll resent their parents for going way over the top with their right on views and telling them they were something they weren't. More so they'll resent the medical profession that misdiagnosed them and prescribed hormone changing drugs. In maybe ten or fifteen years time when these kids are teenagers or young adults I can see them demanding an apology from the medical profession and the government for not putting a stop to this.

riffmongous

Is meek the new right buzzword?

touts

I don't think there will ever be a rowing back on the policies you mentioned let alone an apology nor should there be. We have reached a point where everyone accepts that people have a right to equality and happiness.

However I do believe there will be a rowing back on liberal ideas in relation to policies that have created things like a justice industry biased in favour of the criminal or welfare as a lifestype choice. A swing to the right is rapidly approaching on those sort of areas. For example I could well see a future government apologising to the victims of crime for the liberal system that prioritised the perceived rights of violent repeat offenders over the protection of their victims. Likewise I could see future political parties campaigning on a promise to prioritise services for those who work and contribute to society ahead of those who choose welfare and living off the society. In that case it probably won't be a full apology but it'll be just as good to hard pressed taxpayers.

Yer Da sells Avon

riffmongous wrote: »

Is meek the new right buzzword?

Hope so.

#blessed

RobertKK

A very conservative past has been replaced with a very liberal present, The thing is to find the right balance, the problem for either side is when it swings too much in either direction it leads to a push back and it can go from one extreme to the other.
If Ireland takes a very liberal policy on immigration from countries that don't share our European and western culture, it will lead to push back. It will lead to problems and it will lead to apologies. Angela Merkel sort of apologised for her very liberal open door immigration policy of 2015, which backfired spectacularly, it affected her legacy and has led to the rise of the far right.
People who keep pushing for more liberalism and it was needed in certain areas, will be seen in the future to have made similar mistakes as the people who pushed for more conservatism in the past when Ireland was already conservative, it will just end up backfiring and mistakes will be made, this will lead to apologies in time.
It is all about getting the right balance.

Atlantic Dawn

Angela loves the extra staff to bang out the BMW's.

DEFTLEFTHAND

There might be something for traditionalism and following what served our people well for centuries.

I find myself being driven to the right these days with the anti science regressive leftist movement.


Very creepy and almost sinIster vibe to their speil.

Cabaal

Taytoland wrote: »

You are a meek people, so probably not. Although hopefully the conservative movement rises once again. Best chance would be the influx of more Islam on society, so the focus can switch.

So bring us back to the good old 1950s eh?
is it like a magically time in your head?

super_furry

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Made to feel embarrassed and ashamed for simply being born a cis white male.

Told your masculine nature is toxic.

Outside of interernet hyperbole, where does this happen? I’ve never met anyone who would hold such views, don’t know anyone in my circle who gets so wrapped up in identity politics on either scale and certainly have never been “Made to feel embarrassed and ashamed for simply being born a cis white male”.

Extreme and exaggerated online views are not reflective of wider Irish society.

Wibbs

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

As a middle-class, heterosexual, white, cis man, I can't think of any non-spurious reasons to consider myself a victim of discrimination.

I might suggest that your use of the term CIS suggests you wouldn't even if it were happening. It suggests your down with the identity politic and that politic can be quite picky as far as which group it labels oppressed and groups outside that circle can't possibly be discriminated against. Can women be sexist? Can non Whites be racist? If you had a pause before coming up with an answer in your head, that's an answer in of itself.

Thought experiment: your girlfriend/wife is physically abusive towards you. Who do you call? Who do you turn to? Where do you go? If you have kids and the relationship breaks down who will get near automatic custody, even if she's a proven addict/nutbag? Who gets to stay in your previously shared property?

Sweetemotion

super_furry wrote: »

Outside of interernet hyperbole, where does this happen? I’ve never met anyone who would hold such views, don’t know anyone in my circle who gets so wrapped up in identity politics on either scale and certainly have never been “Made to feel embarrassed and ashamed for simply being born a cis white male”.

Extreme and exaggerated online views are not reflective of wider Irish society.

It may just be internet hyperbole but it's slowly creeping into society.

Consent classes because we must our boys not to rape. How fecking patronising is that.

Public figures like blind boy on our national broadcaster saying all males mental health problems can simply be solved by feminism.

Raising kids as gender neutral in most cases means raising the boys to be more feminine.

Giving young boys who have played with a barbie doll and wore a dress once hormone pills.

Being paranoid to pick up your children from school in case you are viewed as some sort of sexual predator.

nthclare

Ireland and it's traditions are being trampled on by snowflakes and lefties...

People being brainwashed into accepting a more soft view on what we once were.

In some ways when certain natural instincts wasn't accepted to our society like sex before marriage, homosexuality, swinging, sleeping around etc....

For some reason I'd enjoy those things more if it was frowned upon and considered naughty and dirty.

Nothing more pleasurable and naughty than going against the system.....as long as it's between two consenting adult's...

When is it all going to stop, chaos is natural in the universe.......so chaos now and again in society ain't bad really....

Later on now today I'll have some kinky fun with my girlfriend somewhere outdoors.

She'll wear a nice skimpy summer dress and no knickers...we'll slip over the dunes, find long grass and go at it like rabbits.....

Is that acceptable ?

dr.fuzzenstein

As long as she contents. Have fun you two.

wakka12

super_furry

nthclare wrote: »

Ireland and it's traditions are being trampled on by snowflakes and lefties...

What traditions are they?

Cabaal

super_furry wrote: »

What traditions are they?

Keeping women in mother in baby homes, its a proud tradition, stretching from 1930's to the late 1990's.

Other traditions include
- Allow people in "power" to rape children and covering it up and not talking about it
- Ignoring victims
- Shouting down anyone who spoke out against such awful things, they even tried to do it with Catherine Coreless.
- Blindly listening to and obeying the catholic church
- Hating gay people
- Hating women
- Sell babies against their parent or parents permission
- Dumping babies into septic tanks and continuing to charge the Irish state for their "care"
- Treating unmarried children and their off spring as dirt

Thankfully things are changing

Cabaal

nthclare wrote: »

Ireland and it's traditions are being trampled on by snowflakes and lefties...

People being brainwashed into accepting a more soft view on what we once were.

In some ways when certain natural instincts wasn't accepted to our society like sex before marriage, homosexuality, swinging, sleeping around etc....

For some reason I'd enjoy those things more if it was frowned upon and considered naughty and dirty.

Nothing more pleasurable and naughty than going against the system.....as long as it's between two consenting adult's...

When is it all going to stop, chaos is natural in the universe.......so chaos now and again in society ain't bad really....

Later on now today I'll have some kinky fun with my girlfriend somewhere outdoors.

She'll wear a nice skimpy summer dress and no knickers...we'll slip over the dunes, find long grass and go at it like rabbits.....

Is that acceptable ?

wow, you are all sorts of weird and messed up,

I don't see any government apologising for liberalisation, however I suspect both the general population and the government might regret some of the initiatives allowed. Not for the things the OP listed like divorce, or SSM, but rather for provision of rights to people across the board. There is so much social change going on with encouragement to accept these changes without any long-term analysis/research to determine how such changes will affect our society. Instead, governments are in a rush to implement change as quickly as possible.

Immigration & Asylum policies, I can definitely see the possibility of coming back to bite us, especially with defending rights to be different with integration being involved. Multiculturalism has consistently failed across every western nation seeking to encourage it, and yet, governments still reinforce the belief that it's needed. Little thought given to the long term effects of changes of such policies. Same with this headlong acceptance of gender changes, with little consideration for how such flexible gender choice will affect a society that was essentially built with two genders in mind. But, that doesn't matter as long as everyone can be seen as open and welcoming.

I'm not against these changes, but I'd like to see more research and analysis done beforehand so that we can estimate how it will affect us. So... yes, I can see regrets on the horizon, but apologies? Nah.

professore

Cabaal wrote: »

Keeping women in mother in baby homes, its a proud tradition, stretching from 1930's to the late 1990's.

Other traditions include
- Allow people in "power" to rape children and covering it up and not talking about it
- Ignoring victims
- Shouting down anyone who spoke out against such awful things, they even tried to do it with Catherine Coreless.
- Blindly listening to and obeying the catholic church
- Hating gay people
- Hating women
- Sell babies against their parent or parents permission
- Dumping babies into septic tanks and continuing to charge the Irish state for their "care"
- Treating unmarried children and their off spring as dirt

Thankfully things are changing

All of these things were supported by the majority of Irish society. Not just "those in power". People - ordinary men and women - especially women - liked nothing better than to gossip about the next door neighbours daughter who got pregnant bringing shame on her family or that fella who was a "Nancy boy" down the road.

Then go to mass on Sunday and show everyone how righteous and holy they were. And if their own son was gay send him to maynooth to become a priest.

These same types are now gossiping about that fella who is a homophobe because he won't wear an LGBT lanyard at work.

So yeah all we need is for society to swing more conservative and these same types will switch in droves.

professore

Cabaal wrote: »

wow, you are all sorts of weird and messed up,

Hope you are being sarcastic. Nothing better or more natural than a good ride in the outdoors at one with nature.

ArchXStanton

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

Cabaal

Deleted User wrote: »

ISame with this headlong acceptance of gender changes, with little consideration for how such flexible gender choice will affect a society that was essentially built with two genders in mind. But, that doesn't matter as long as everyone can be seen as open and welcoming. .

But you could easily argue that our society was also build with no divorce or SSM in mind either, this would be factually true as both were never foreseen as something that would happen and were against the views of the ruling church who basically dictated government policy's for decades via the likes of John Mcquaid,

You could also even extend it to contraception as well which against was against church and government policy also for decades and lots of people (and company's) fought to change it. Remember that it was May 1990 when Virgin Megastores got in trouble for selling condoms!

professore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't see any government apologising for liberalisation, however I suspect both the general population and the government might regret some of the initiatives allowed. Not for the things the OP listed like divorce, or SSM, but rather for provision of rights to people across the board. There is so much social change going on with encouragement to accept these changes without any long-term analysis/research to determine how such changes will affect our society. Instead, governments are in a rush to implement change as quickly as possible.

Immigration & Asylum policies, I can definitely see the possibility of coming back to bite us, especially with defending rights to be different with integration being involved. Multiculturalism has consistently failed across every western nation seeking to encourage it, and yet, governments still reinforce the belief that it's needed. Little thought given to the long term effects of changes of such policies. Same with this headlong acceptance of gender changes, with little consideration for how such flexible gender choice will affect a society that was essentially built with two genders in mind. But, that doesn't matter as long as everyone can be seen as open and welcoming.

I'm not against these changes, but I'd like to see more research and analysis done beforehand so that we can estimate how it will affect us. So... yes, I can see regrets on the horizon, but apologies? Nah.

We have built a remarkably tolerant and open society here. We can't afford to allow some groups to practice intolerance and oppression in the name of religion or culture. By all means come here in a limited and controlled fashion. But you gotta follow our rules.

professore

Cabaal wrote: »

But you could easily argue that our society was also build with no divorce or SSM in mind either, this would be factually true as both were never foreseen as something that would happen and were against the views of the ruling church who basically dictated government policy's for decades via the likes of John Mcquaid,

You could also even extend it to contraception as well which against was against church and government policy also for decades and lots of people (and company's) fought to change it. Remember that it was May 1990 when Virgin Megastores got in trouble for selling condoms!

Divorce and SSM (and marriage in general) are relatively recent social constructs.

Gender is biological with hundreds of millions of years of evolution behind it. Of course you can feel you were born the wrong gender - probably something to do with testosterone exposure in the uterus - but you then identify as the other one.

Cabaal

professore wrote: »

Divorce and SSM (and marriage in general) are relatively recent social constructs.

Depends on your idea of "recent" is I suppose, same sex unions date back to ancient Mesopotamia that pre-dates lots of things. if we want to say all of these are recent then we want to refer to writing as recent too.

Is Ireland ready for writing!?

nthclare

Cabaal wrote: »

Keeping women in mother in baby homes, its a proud tradition, stretching from 1930's to the late 1990's.

Other traditions include
- Allow people in "power" to rape children and covering it up and not talking about it
- Ignoring victims
- Shouting down anyone who spoke out against such awful things, they even tried to do it with Catherine Coreless.
- Blindly listening to and obeying the catholic church
- Hating gay people
- Hating women
- Sell babies against their parent or parents permission
- Dumping babies into septic tanks and continuing to charge the Irish state for their "care"
- Treating unmarried children and their off spring as dirt

Thankfully things are changing

OMG I never experienced any of that.

I mean like the old ways not the negative history that youre affiliated with.

I mean like people enjoying the old ways, less smart phone, more culture and togetherness...

Fist fights at fairs, throwing horseshoes...

Dancing at the crossroads, buying red wing iron ranger boots for half nothing in the local hardware shop and stomping around the place....

Chairoplanes, and bumper cars....

OMG you're soooo negative

nthclare

Cabaal wrote: »

wow, you are all sorts of weird and messed up,

Sure its OK with me, why's it weird to you ?

Do I harm anyone ?

I'd prefer to be a black sheep tbh

Cabaal

nthclare wrote: »

OMG I never experienced any of that.

So you like going back to the good old white washed days when you ignore all the bad stuff?
Just because you didn't experience something doesn't mean it didn't happen, so saying Ireland should go back to the good old days isn't helpful when you ignore the bad stuff.

Also, every generation does this crap...."It was better in the good old days!",

I mean like people enjoying the old ways, less smart phone, more culture and togetherness...

As you type this on your smartphone
:pac:

Fist fights at fairs, throwing horseshoes...

fist fights are barbaric but throwing horseshoes most certainly does still happen

Dancing at the crossroads,

Chairoplanes, and bumper cars....

All these things still exist in Ireland
:rolleyes:

Zebra3

nthclare wrote: »

OMG I never experienced any of that.

I mean like the old ways not the negative history that youre affiliated with.

I mean like people enjoying the old ways, less smart phone, more culture and togetherness...

Fist fights at fairs, throwing horseshoes...

Dancing at the crossroads, buying red wing iron ranger boots for half nothing in the local hardware shop and stomping around the place....

Chairoplanes, and bumper cars....

OMG you're soooo negative

Did anyone ever actually dance at a crossroads?

nthclare

Cabaal wrote: »

So you like going back to the good old white washed days when you ignore all the bad stuff?
Just because you didn't experience something doesn't mean it didn't happen, so saying Ireland should go back to the good old days isn't helpful when you ignore the bad stuff.

Also, every generation does this crap...."It was better in the good old days!",



As you type this on your smartphone
:pac:




fist fights are barbaric but throwing horseshoes most certainly does still happen



All these things still exist in Ireland
:rolleyes:

Sure you know I'm only joking about the fist fights lol

As for smart phone I mean less usage of it, yes I am replying via smart phone.

Ament I entitled to.....

super_furry

ArchXStanton wrote: »

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4MmynUrze8

dr.fuzzenstein

It looks like a shift to the right is already happening in Europe with the rise of right wing groups and parties.
Their values are mostly anti the "wrong" (brown) type of foreigner, national pride, economic isolationism, anti women (getting too many rights, should stay at home, etc...), anti Europe, well, too many antis to list.
It's a backlash from angry, white men who want the world to revolve around them and their rights, so now they want to reclaim "their" world, as in the middle ages or the 1950's.
And this new type of knuckledragger worries me.