BER - your recommendations when buying

dawanda

Hi,

I am thinking of buying a house (first time buyer). I've already asked questions regarding financing in a different thread.

Here, I'd be very grateful if you could share your opinions of buying houses with certain BER ratings. Is there a certain rating you would recommend not going under?

Obviously, money is really tight, so I am wondering what the smartest option would be. There are some gorgeous houses on daft with ratings D or below. But I'm obv worried this will drive up the monthly bills making it much more expensive and not worth it. But maybe there are cheap ways to improve the BER and save energy?

thanks very much in advance
Dana

L1011

BER ratings are trusted too much - they don't give anything more than a vague indication and you are trusting that the assessor did their job properly. Read the advice reports that come with and hope they're accurate rather than believing the headline.

Ranjo

Just been through this and ended up with a D rated house, with minimal changes needed to get up a ranking.

We looked at some F and G places, with expectations of spending tens of thousands to improve.

I lived in a G rated house, never again. D is not too bad.

It depends on many factors, being cost v location v current and future spend needs v mortgage options. If you borrow upwards of your max spending then you're gonna be stuck in an ice box for a few years.

I'm getting a surveyor in too. Better info than just the BER

dawanda

thanks guys. Do you have any idea of how much it does cost to improve the energy level of a house? Just a rough idea? And what to look out for, as in "if the house is rated E because of THIS, this can be fixed relatively easily"

My house was, if i recall correctly, a D rated (it's a 3 bed end terrace). We put an extension onto it, and then the BER changed to C or something. I think we moved from a D2 to a C1. Could be wrong.


Either way, the gist of my post is that I've noticed little to no real difference in the heating of the house. The insulation on the original house was never touched (just the new walls for the extension), didn't do any attic insulation or the likes. If the heating is on for an hour, I've the windows open and I'm melted (both with the old and new rating).


As a result, I wouldn't put much faith into the BER cert telling you too much about the house's heat-holding capabilities. Probable depends on the house itself. I'd be more concerned about a detached house's BER than a terraced house (which will pick up heat from either side of it), etc. but unless it's missing it's roof chances are it won't be too bad at holding heat.

chicorytip

dawanda wrote:

thanks guys. Do you have any idea of how much it does cost to improve the energy level of a house? Just a rough idea? And what to look out for, as in "if the house is rated E because of THIS, this can be fixed relatively easily"

Energy efficient central heating, proper attic insulation, replace old windows and doors. Fit a thermostat to the immersion. Use low energy light bulbs. Those are some of the most obvious measures.

Mantis Toboggan

When looking myself I was very conscious of this as I've been renting a G rated house and it's an ice box in the winter and a sauna in the summer. Once I turned the heat off during the winter you'd immediately feel the cold. Also resale value could be an issue in the future. It'll be hard sell a G rated house in 10 years when there will be a lot more A rated homes.

denismc

You can get an energy survey done on the house before you make any changes and spend money needlessly.
This survey involves going through the house and checking for cold spots, poor insulation, air-tightness etc.
I had a survey done last year on my house thinking I had poor insulation but it turns out the big issue was not insulation but air-tightness (i.e drafts)

The surveyor gave me a list of things that would improve the energy efficiency of the house, many of these things were things I could do myself for little cost.
The survey cost me over 400 euro but I feel it was definitely worth it.

MicktheMan

denismc wrote: »

You can get an energy survey done on the house before you make any changes and spend money needlessly.
This survey involves going through the house and checking for cold spots, poor insulation, air-tightness etc.
I had a survey done last year on my house thinking I had poor insulation but it turns out the big issue was not insulation but air-tightness (i.e drafts)

The surveyor gave me a list of things that would improve the energy efficiency of the house, many of these things were things I could do myself for little cost.
The survey cost me over 400 euro but I feel it was definitely worth it.

^^^^^^^This is the only practical way you will get a correct answer to your questions OP.

Way way too many assumptions made in a ber assessment of a second hand house. You're left with a piece of paper that may or may not reflect the real rating of the house and as such is not fit for purpose when the purpose is to compare actual running costs of one house versus another.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

BER ratings are not worth the paper they're written on.

dawanda

Does this mean that you would recommend not ruling out a house that has, say, G rating?
(wouldn't be able to renovate anything myself and don't know anyone who would do it for me either)

MicktheMan

dawanda wrote: »

Does this mean that you would recommend not ruling out a house that has, say, G rating?
(wouldn't be able to renovate anything myself and don't know anyone who would do it for me either)

As with most things in life, it depends.
One "G" rated house may be easier and cheaper to upgrade to a more comfortable/economical house* than say a "D" or "C" rated one. It depends on a multiplicity of factors which would be quite obvious to the experienced eye. This is why the BER on its own is quite useless to the layman in its present form.

*Note that I didn't say "upgrade to a better rating"

dawanda

MicktheMan wrote: »

As with most things in life, it depends.
One "G" rated house may be easier and cheaper to upgrade to a more comfortable/economical house* than say a "D" or "C" rated one. It depends on a multiplicity of factors which would be quite obvious to the experienced eye. This is why the BER on its own is quite useless to the layman in its present form.

*Note that I didn't say "upgrade to a better rating"

I see, it's a whole science in itself. Is there any way for me as a complete lay person to tell by the looks on pics or the text of the advert anyway? So I only look at the houses (likely) with potential?

MicktheMan

Not really. I would try to avoid though (or at least be sceptical of) houses which have gone through recent (in the last decade) energy upgrades as you may well end up paying for other people's mistakes in both capital & running costs.
Imo, better to look at older untouched properties, say from the 60's, 70's or 80's and invest in appropriate upgrade measures.

purifol0

Recently got a BER cert done and wasnt impressed at all by the professional standard of the assessor - he simply moved through the house at breakneck pace and emailed me the cert, rating with a generic list of what to do to improve it.

I had a hunch if I paid him more I could have got a better rating!

That said if its a new build the BER should be very high, if its an old build check to see if the house isnt just losing its heat through single glazed windows or double glazed ones with bad seals. Also attic insulation is usually an easy fix - if the house doesnt have any its going to drop ratings.

So by all means get a BER assessor but ask around if you can find a decent one!

dawanda

MicktheMan wrote: »

Not really. I would try to avoid though (or at least be sceptical of) houses which have gone through recent (in the last decade) energy upgrades as you may well end up paying for other people's mistakes in both capital & running costs.
Imo, better to look at older untouched properties, say from the 60's, 70's or 80's and invest in appropriate upgrade measures.

Interesting, would never have thought about it in this way, thank you

dawanda

purifol0 wrote: »

Recently got a BER cert done and wasnt impressed at all by the professional standard of the assessor - he simply moved through the house at breakneck pace and emailed me the cert, rating with a generic list of what to do to improve it.

I had a hunch if I paid him more I could have got a better rating!

That said if its a new build the BER should be very high, if its an old build check to see if the house isnt just losing its heat through single glazed windows or double glazed ones with bad seals. Also attic insulation is usually an easy fix - if the house doesnt have any its going to drop ratings.

So by all means get a BER assessor but ask around if you can find a decent one!

Are single glazed windows an easy fix?

Are there any features of the house that would not be an easy fix and that I could ask the agent by phone or email? (yep, missing roof is an obvious, so maybe something less obvious to me?)

Naos

dawanda wrote: »

Are single glazed windows an easy fix?

Are there any features of the house that would not be an easy fix and that I could ask the agent by phone or email? (yep, missing roof is an obvious, so maybe something less obvious to me?)

Easy? Yes. Expensive? Depends how many windows you're replacing.

I bought an E2 and replaced 5 old double glazed windows with triple as per Micktheman's recommendation - has made a huge difference compared to this time last year. I also put down 200m of insulation in the attic (covered about 80% of the floor area, planning to have electrical work done so didn't finish other 20%).

Cost of windows was around €6k incl a very large front window + some blockwork. Insulation was a few hundred quid.

I plan to get some pretty extensive work done on the house in the next few years and will be availing of Micktheman's services (around airtightness/draughts) then to add to the list for the builders, worth looking into.

Baybay

When our house was BER assessed for sale the assessor noted the following as positives:

Double glazing, porch at main entrance, attic recently insulated to current standards, low energy bulbs everywhere possible, multi fuel stove with back boiler, recent upgrade of central heating boiler, thermostat controlled water heating & heavy, lined curtains.

The house was an older, detached bungalow with no wall insulation. He graded it D1. We needed both central & stove heating, frequently simultaneously! If we were away for a few days over winter, it’d take three or four days to get the house up to a comfortable temperature when we came back.I work from home so the stove was always at least ticking over when we were home.

Our house now is A2 rated. It’s triple glazed, has good wall & attic insulation, solar &/or oil heated water, LED bulbs & a small stove that we’ve lit maybe four times in three years.

Dolbhad

To be honest anything after a B2 I didn’t pay attention to what the rating was as I found it’s hard to tell how the house would be. Any house build in last 5 or 6 years will be great. After that the ber is a tick boxing Exercise.

I viewed a house that was a C1 rating and was told it had been pumped. However the house was riddle with mould. We had an engineer look anyway as there was great potential and we thought maybe it’s just a case of rooms not been used. Engineer said yes house had been pumped. But it was so badly done it might as well not have been hence all the mould. He said it was everywhere - even in the wardrobes.

However because they could say the house was pumped it for a tick of the box and jumped it to a c1 rating.

After that we look to see the conditions of the windows and doors, what type of heating was in place and how many fire places the house had. And if attic was insulated.

godtabh

I moved from an F to a C1 and cost c. €50k

House had no electricity, gas, water or insulation when we moved in. Double glazed windows with a gas boiler that was past its sell by date but ok

Naos

godtabh wrote: »

I moved from an F to a C1 and cost c. €50k

House had no electricity, gas, water or insulation when we moved in. Double glazed windows with a gas boiler that was past its sell by date but ok

What did you get done to move it from a F to a C1?

I'm in an E1 rated house, it's a mid-terrace red brick, and I'm in no rush to improve it bar changing the windows, some of which may as well not be there such is the draft. But the house is fine.

listermint

dawanda wrote: »

I see, it's a whole science in itself. Is there any way for me as a complete lay person to tell by the looks on pics or the text of the advert anyway? So I only look at the houses (likely) with potential?

Did you respond to a thread 3 years later ? ?

godtabh

Naos wrote: »

What did you get done to move it from a F to a C1?

new boiler/new plumbing
underfloor insulation
external wall insulation
New lightning
spray foam
New stove
New radiators
New external doors
Smart home hub


I'm sure there were a few more bits but that was the main thing

dawanda

godtabh wrote: »

new boiler/new plumbing
underfloor insulation
external wall insulation
New lightning
spray foam
New stove
New radiators
New external doors
Smart home hub


I'm sure there were a few more bits but that was the main thing

Wow, that's a lot. Do you recall how much the cost was in total?

Alkers

godtabh wrote: »

new boiler/new plumbing
underfloor insulation
external wall insulation
New lightning
spray foam
New stove
New radiators
New external doors
Smart home hub


I'm sure there were a few more bits but that was the main thing

Stick up €2k worth of solar and you'll probably make B1/A3

godtabh

dawanda wrote: »

Wow, that's a lot. Do you recall how much the cost was in total?

I think around €50k

godtabh

Alkers wrote: »

Stick up €2k worth of solar and you'll probably make B1/A3

House is sold now! Moved to a B1 with solar panels and probably will install PV panels as well

remi76

I've moved from C2 to A2 new development. It is huge difference in warm comfort, not only bills. Even I know this developers BER standards are really lower than they said but still huge difference. If you really want lower BER house and live in. First you should check possibility of insulation ( only external, internal is s....). But worst thing in houses builded before 2015-14 is floor. Foundations of bare concrete without insulation. Improving it would be biggest cost. The best would be remove concrete. Putting insulation and underfloor heating with Heat Pump system.On the beginning the cheapest option is insulate well attic floor (two xcross layers mineral wool). Second replace all windows with minimum 2 glazed with good u-value. Also windows have to be well installed with no cold bridges, no empty spaces under windowsill. Third, insulate well walls outside, with no gaps and good insulation from ground. Last and more expensive is floor inside. The best would be remove old concrete and put at lest 10cm polystyrene and concrete on it and the best option underfloor heating. Last options to make house more passive would be installing recuperation.

JimmyVik

My advise is to just ignore the BER. Its a joke.
If you ignore it and everyone else doesnt you can get a great bargain.
Myself and some family members have bought and renovated several houses over the years and we always went for low BERs.
It dissuaded other bidders, so was to our advantage and its not difficult or expensive getting it up to a C from anywhere.
People put too much stock in the BER.
That said I think its a waste of time and money trying to go any higher than a C.

remi76

Everything is depend from point of view and personal expectations. I know people which love having to a big house and to save a money they not heat up unused rooms. Many times I've seen they have a problem with mold and their children have asthma but they planning to have new extension, instead isolate wet, cold walls. IMHO I prefer have smaller but cosier house. JimmyVik is right, but its make a sense If I you will have a spare money. I would be looking for bargain with lower BER rating and modified them to my purposes. But If you don't have a knowledge or money I wouldn't go this way. If you don't have a knowledge, find some good engineer who would tell you it make a sense or not. Sometimes cost of modification in not proportional to hassle than to buying better property for a higher price.