Ireland is the world’s biggest corporate ‘tax haven’

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals. Normal PAYE workers make up the shortfall and we are already at breaking point with the average Joe who is anticipating tax cuts, particularly with USC as they rightly should. However, should other countries reign in companies which book profits abroad in havens such as Ireland (which arguably does meet the requirements for a tax haven if you are of the opinion that dealings are not transparent) then there could be tax take shortfalls in the hundreds of millions or even billions ready for average Joe to be taxed again.

In addition, related to the tax haven point, is that swathes of land have also been hoovered up by investment funds with foreign investors, who pay no tax on the acquisition and disposal or rent takings connected with such land. The government has caused the housing crisis through inaction and lost the ability to fix the housing crisis.

The economy is in the **** to be frank; we have only seen in Ireland the wealth being pushed to the top. I’ve posted this before but I strongly feel that conditions for income tax paying workers are not far off what they were in the recession due to the housing and rental crisis mixed with general exorbitant cost of everything really. Sure it is rosy for the employees of multinationals who, instead of paying taxes, pay higher wages to these lucky few who were brought over from abroad to populate an EMEA head office.

Interesting thread here, a lot to read in it! http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66282&sid=969c114e95772c3a0b4b1bfe870bab0b

Well you’re first sentence is a lie.

Every company pays 12.5% tax on profits in Ireland which is law.

Simple as that.

The rest is rambling nonsense.

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

riffmongous wrote: »

Yeah this is the problem, I'd prefer an Ireland that isn't so heavily dependent on foreign profit-slaves. Sure keep them happy but it's irresponsible to depend on them

With what???????

Assetbacked

No

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well you’re first sentence is a lie.

Every company pays 12.5% tax on profits in Ireland which is law.

Simple as that.

The rest is rambling nonsense.

The effective tax rate is not 12.5% in practice, normally for the larger companies.

And what is nonsense? I’m not expecting much other than garbage from wheeliebin30

Ipso

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals. Normal PAYE workers make up the shortfall and we are already at breaking point with the average Joe who is anticipating tax cuts, particularly with USC as they rightly should. However, should other countries reign in companies which book profits abroad in havens such as Ireland (which arguably does meet the requirements for a tax haven if you are of the opinion that dealings are not transparent) then there could be tax take shortfalls in the hundreds of millions or even billions ready for average Joe to be taxed again.

In addition, related to the tax haven point, is that swathes of land have also been hoovered up by investment funds with foreign investors, who pay no tax on the acquisition and disposal or rent takings connected with such land. The government has caused the housing crisis through inaction and lost the ability to fix the housing crisis.

The economy is in the **** to be frank; we have only seen in Ireland the wealth being pushed to the top. I’ve posted this before but I strongly feel that conditions for income tax paying workers are not far off what they were in the recession due to the housing and rental crisis mixed with general exorbitant cost of everything really. Sure it is rosy for the employees of multinationals who, instead of paying taxes, pay higher wages to these lucky few who were brought over from abroad to populate an EMEA head office.

Interesting thread here, a lot to read in it! http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66282&sid=969c114e95772c3a0b4b1bfe870bab0b

How does PAYE workers make up the short fall?

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is not 12.5% in practice, normally for the larger companies.

And what is nonsense? I’m not expecting much other than garbage from wheeliebin30

Link to your claim the effective rate is not 12.5%?

Assetbacked

No

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Link to your claim the effective rate is not 12.5%?

https://fora.ie/effective-tax-rate-ireland-3622827-Sep2017/

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

I'm sure the people who worked in Dell will obviously agree with you.

After they had to go cap in hand to Siptu to try and organise their redundancies when Dell left for Poland.

how long had dell been in place, and to what positive effect in that time to their employees, to small businesses around them, to the universities and students locally, to the local authority they paid rates to

a MNC doesnt have to hang around forever for the area to benefit hugely long after its gone

Assetbacked

No

Ipso wrote: »

How does PAYE workers make up the short fall?

At the moment the government is being hounded from many different sectors which feel that a break is deserved following years of recession and enduring cuts. If half a billion or more was wiped from the coffers, rather than implementing the promised tax cuts to workers, these would likely stall or be negligible (as with last year’s budget).

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

Assetbacked wrote: »

https://fora.ie/effective-tax-rate-ireland-3622827-Sep2017/

Did you read what you linked?

Do you know the differences between corporation tax which is tax on profits not income?

Once again as stated by revenue every company in Ireland paid 12.5% tax on their profits generated in Ireland by law.

This is well known except by pbp and aaa type lunatics.

Assetbacked

No

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Did you read what you linked?

Do you know the differences between corporation tax which is tax on profits not income?

Once again as stated by revenue every company in Ireland paid 12.5% tax on their profits as by law.

This is well known except ny pbp and aaa type lunatics.

At this point you must be trolling given;

(1) your lazy initial dismissal; and
(2) asking for proof then re-hashing your point on which you refuse to be convinced otherwise.

In the link I quoted it clearly refers to corporation tax.

“This masks significant variations within the top 100 companies. While 79 of the top 100 companies had an effective corporation tax rate of between 10% and 15%, 13 had an effective rate of less than 1%.”

VinLieger

Assetbacked wrote: »

At this point you must be trolling given;

(1) your lazy initial dismissal; and
(2) asking for proof then re-hashing your point on which you refuse to be convinced otherwise.

In the link I quoted it clearly refers to corporation tax.

“This masks significant variations within the top 100 companies. While 79 of the top 100 companies had an effective corporation tax rate of between 10% and 15%, 13 had an effective rate of less than 1%.”

And heres what you claimed do you see how they are different?

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals

Also theres so much wrong with your original post im not sure i even know where to start

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals. Normal PAYE workers make up the shortfall and we are already at breaking point with the average Joe who is anticipating tax cuts, particularly with USC as they rightly should.

Firstly thats not how taxes work nobody makes up the difference. Secondly the USC is currently the fairest and most logical tax we have as it broadens the tax base significantly which was one of our main issues during the recession in that so many people were paying no income tax. I find it funny how you have a problem with corporations not paying tax on their incomes and want to broaden that tax base but are for reducing the number of people paying tax on their incomes and want to shrink that one. Bit of a disconnect there no?


Also as you yourself showed the effective tax rate is nowhere near 0 for the vast majority of these companies.

Assetbacked wrote: »

However, should other countries reign in companies which book profits abroad in havens such as Ireland (which arguably does meet the requirements for a tax haven if you are of the opinion that dealings are not transparent) then there could be tax take shortfalls in the hundreds of millions or even billions ready for average Joe to be taxed again.

Nope if we went the route of tax harmonisation across europe as you seem to be arguing it would be the case these companies paid taxes on profits made in those countries we wouldnt see a sniff of what you claim, similar to what will happen with the apple 13 billion it will be divided amongst the rest of europe with us seeing very little.

Assetbacked wrote: »

In addition, related to the tax haven point, is that swathes of land have also been hoovered up by investment funds with foreign investors, who pay no tax on the acquisition and disposal or rent takings connected with such land. The government has caused the housing crisis through inaction and lost the ability to fix the housing crisis.

What is your solution we make it illegal to purchase land unless you are an irish citizen? I think the EU might have a problem with that.

Assetbacked wrote: »

The economy is in the **** to be frank; we have only seen in Ireland the wealth being pushed to the top. I’ve posted this before but I strongly feel that conditions for income tax paying workers are not far off what they were in the recession due to the housing and rental crisis mixed with general exorbitant cost of everything really. Sure it is rosy for the employees of multinationals who, instead of paying taxes, pay higher wages to these lucky few who were brought over from abroad to populate an EMEA head office.

Not much point in even addressing this as everything in here is a basically a lie and you have no evidence to back any of it up.


I did enjoy your ignoring of the fact that tax avoidance as is done here is practiced in many other EU country as well, its just not written about as they like to make ireland a bit of a scape goat. France may like to spout about their 21% cosporate tax but their effective tax is far closer to ours at around 6-9%. And if you have a problem with the double irish, which has been stopped and will be fully gone by 2021, i suggest you look into something called the dutch sandwich which unlike the double irish is still perfectly legal.

Wanderer78

I would class Ireland as a type of tax haven, we probably should be using things such as sovereign wealth funds to truly utilise this position

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

Assetbacked wrote: »

At this point you must be trolling given;

(1) your lazy initial dismissal; and
(2) asking for proof then re-hashing your point on which you refuse to be convinced otherwise.

In the link I quoted it clearly refers to corporation tax.

“This masks significant variations within the top 100 companies. While 79 of the top 100 companies had an effective corporation tax rate of between 10% and 15%, 13 had an effective rate of less than 1%.”

Once again, all mncs and companies in Ireland pay 12.5% tax on their profits in Ireland as has been proven by revenue only recently.

You’re wrong and I suggest you read your link again.

Grab All Association

Yes, but with conditions

One of the conditions of passing Lisbon II was protection of our corporate tax rates. Any attempt of harmonisation surely makes Lisbon null and void?

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

Once again, all mncs and companies in Ireland pay 12.5% tax on their profits in Ireland as has been proven by revenue only recently.

According to Cormac lucey, up to about a year or so ago, the average was about 11.5, so not too bad compared to previous estimations

Wanderer78

Grab All Association wrote:

One of the conditions of passing Lisbon II was protection of our corporate tax rates. Any attempt of harmonisation surely makes Lisbon null and void?

In a union that's not exactly democratic in its workings, some things can be changed relatively easily

Padraig Mor

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Once again, all mncs and companies in Ireland pay 12.5% tax on their profits in Ireland as has been proven by revenue only recently.

You’re wrong and I suggest you read your link again.

It's feck all to do with the corporate tax rate and all to do with the corporate tax base - doesn't matter what your rate is if you ain't charging it on the majority of the (some would say dodgily routed to Ireland) dosh - and conversely, if the tax base is a level pitch across Europe (as is the plan), Ireland won't have much left to be charging its 12.5% on.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

mariaalice

The bit I don't get about the likes of Yanis Varoufakis and other Marxist economists is why they are expecting capitalism to change to suit them as essentially their philosophy is that capitalism should be torn down.

They analysists used to try and make the case that Ireland is a tax haven is flimsy and weak and is trying to push a narrative or make the facts fit a narrative.

We are possibly walking a very fine line though but that does not make Ireland a tax haven.

Wanderer78

mariaalice wrote: »

The bit I don't get about the likes of Yanis Varoufakis and other Marxist economists is why they are expecting capitalism to change to suit them as essentially their philosophy is that capitalism should be torn down.

They analysists used to try and make the case that Ireland is a tax haven is flimsy and weak and is trying to push a narrative or make the facts fit a narrative.

We are possibly walking a very fine line though but that does not make Ireland a tax haven.

so much so, varoufakis was trying to reduce the corporate tax rate of Greece, in order to try grow their economy, in order to try pay back the bail outs, also noting, it was refused by the troika.

AndrewJRenko

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Once again, all mncs and companies in Ireland pay 12.5% tax on their profits in Ireland as has been proven by revenue only recently.

The question of course remains about how they calculate their profits - how much do they pay in royalty payments for IP to other companies in the same group in other tax havens that come off their profits?

ToddyDoody

I'm going to be lazy and throw in a hunch that we're a bit of a tax haven but that doesn't explain the whole story of why there's a lot of fdi from American companies.