Ireland is the world’s biggest corporate ‘tax haven’

Jesus. To think we were being hanged from the gallows for the wearing of the green, dying of starvation and emigrating in our millions not so long ago.

We've come a long way, baby. Or have we?

Fortunately, no other country could step into the breach and undermine us as it's, er, really difficult to attract firms by, er, lowering taxes.... Just how long do neo-liberals think this low corporation tax will be acceptable? There are plenty of Irish people who have never been comfortable with what is effectively enormous handouts to the rich and the undermining of tax-raising abilities of other states that use much more of their tax income to invest in health, education, housing etc. That's where Ireland, like all tax havens, is taking the money from. Our low corporation tax rate is not victimless.

Thank you to the EU for all those billions throughout the decades while we used our lower corporate tax rate to attract foreign firms away from our subsidisers in Germany and France.

Ireland is the world’s biggest corporate ‘tax haven’, say academics

It's time for all EU states to unite to have a uniform/harmonised tax system, and punish states inside or out who try to draw investment out of the EU by having low tax rates for corporations. The sole winners in the current system are the already ridiculously rich corporations who use the educated workforce, roads, telecommunications structure and so much else built by taxpayers from a previous generation and then avoid paying their fair share to support the next generation.

VinLieger

Yeah so we just ignore some of the facts and focus on the big click baity headline

from the article wrote:

The Department of Finance last night said “it is overly simplistic and totally inaccurate to simply examine the number of employees in a country and assert what amounts of corporate tax should be paid in each country on that basis”.
“The concept of value creation considers a much wider range of factors and looks at all types of activity and assets that create value in a business,” the department said.
“Ireland is not a ‘tax haven’ and does not meet any of the international standards for being considered such,”

SEPT 23 1989

but Paschal O' Donohoe says its not true

VinLieger

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

but Paschal O' Donohoe says its not true

Because objectively its not, per the statements in the article, by any internationally accepted definition we aren't a tax haven. The study is far too simplified focusing on a single statistic as it makes for flashy headlines.

Your Face

A good example of the uneducated pub debate starter.

ahnowbrowncow

OP, you don't appear to have much tax experience and have fallen for the bait. It's not the low corporation tax rate that has attracted these companies to Ireland as other countires have lower effective tax rates by thrpugh having more allowable expenses amd other measures which reduce their taxable profit.
It was mostly the loophole called the double Irish that attracted these companies which will be fully by 20121.

Taytoland

Said this ages ago. Lowered corporation tax means companies take advantage of paying less and less tax.

Are Am Eye

“By our estimates, Ireland is the number one shifting destination,” the paper states.

Cushie Butterfield

#FakeNews

We are also responsible for making Greece poor apparently.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/yanis-varoufakis-ireland-a-tax-haven-free-riding-on-europe-1.3527092

Need an even stronger "No" option than "No, absolutely not".

We should keep our rates and we will fight to give Apple back their money too and I can't see how we won't win. The worst thing is some of the counties calling is out, like France, actually have lower tax rates in practice yet hide behind the fact those official rate is higher.

MNC's are keeping this country going, especially for high skilled, high paying jobs they are absolutely vital and we need to keep them as happy as possible.

JohnnyFlash

mariaalice wrote: »

We are also responsible for making Greece poor apparently.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/yanis-varoufakis-ireland-a-tax-haven-free-riding-on-europe-1.3527092

Yanis Varoufakis‘s proposed solution is to create a pan-European socialist state influenced by the writings of Marx and Lenin. This includes the usual things like collectivism, the end of the concept of private property ownership, the destruction of the EU.

VinLieger

mariaalice wrote: »

We are also responsible for making Greece poor apparently.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/yanis-varoufakis-ireland-a-tax-haven-free-riding-on-europe-1.3527092

Notice their banks are open and things are markedly better since Yanis the doomsayer was involved in any decision making.

riffmongous

Addyson Yummy Souvenir wrote: »

.

MNC's are keeping this country going, especially for high skilled, high paying jobs they are absolutely vital and we need to keep them as happy as possible.

Yeah this is the problem, I'd prefer an Ireland that isn't so heavily dependent on foreign profit-slaves. Sure keep them happy but it's irresponsible to depend on them

Fr_Dougal

Yes, but with conditions

That Apple money is just resting in our account.

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

Yeah this is the problem, I'd prefer an Ireland that isn't so heavily dependent on foreign profit-slaves. Sure keep them happy but it's irresponsible to depend on them

They pay the best, have the best benefits, are the best people to work for etc it's more we need to attract in not have less of them. I'd have no issue with even more preferential treatment If it means more highly skilled and highly paid jobs for the highly educated and skilled people in the country.

jimgoose

Hell yes. Social welfare payments should also be exactly the same, because costs and conditions and everything are all identical across the whole EU.

Lollipops23

Yes, but with conditions

My employer is open to the fact that they set up shop here due to the tax status. I wouldn't have a job if it weren't for it, and that's true for hundreds of thousands of people.

Surely the amount generated in employment offsets much of the tax stuff?

VinLieger

Lollipops23 wrote: »

My employer is open to the fact that they set up shop here due to the tax status. I wouldn't have a job if it weren't for it, and that's true for hundreds of thousands of people.

Surely the amount generated in employment offsets much of the tax stuff?

The people who hate the MNC's don't really care about the direct and indirect redundancies which would be caused and would easily top 100,000 if they all suddenly upped and left tomorrow. Minus that in income tax and add on that dole burden and their argument against them quickly is shown for what it really is, illogical socialist dogma not based in any kind of reality.

Richard Hillman

It's actually the Dutch that aid corporate tax avoidance. They are the ones with the direct links to the sunshine islands. We just link it to them via property rights.

suicide_circus

Don't worry lads, if the MNCs left tomorrow your Paul Murphys, your Clare Dalys and your Richard Boyd Barretts would come up with ways to employ the 100s of thousands left unemployed and would come up with loads of schemes to drive the economy and generate wealth.

Ulysses Gaze

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Yanis Varoufakis‘s proposed solution is to create a pan-European socialist state influenced by the writings of Marx and Lenin. This includes the usual things like collectivism, the end of the concept of private property ownership, the destruction of the EU.

And of course this great hero of the left aka Man That Ran Away never mentions that Greeks themselves don't even pay their taxes......

Ipso

Taytoland wrote: »

Said this ages ago. Lowered corporation tax means companies take advantage of paying less and less tax.

Or if the tax was higher they wouldn't be in Ireland in the first place. So you either have a company pay a small amount of tax (and their employees paying PAYE etc) or none.
It's not an ideal scenario but it amazes me that people forget that Ireland was an economic basket case since it's inception. Unfortunately Ireland needs corporations more than they need Ireland.

riffmongous

Addyson Yummy Souvenir wrote: »

They pay the best, have the best benefits, are the best people to work for etc it's more we need to attract in not have less of them. I'd have no issue with even more preferential treatment If it means more highly skilled and highly paid jobs for the highly educated and skilled people in the country.

For as long as it's still profitable enough to stay here of course..

Eggs For Dinner

Yes, but with conditions

Go for it I say.

AllForIt

I don't think there is anything wrong with it when our economy is so much smaller than others in the EU.

I recall a British politician on one of their TV networks being extremely annoyed that Facebook and other big tech companies were located in Ireland instead of the UK as if they have some God given right to attract all the biggest tech firms. He was incredulous that they would choose Ireland over the UK.

If we are to live in a big open and fair EU where we all prosper then it is right that smaller economies should be allowed to incentives firms to locate here. Having said that I do think after a certain period of success I don't think think we should keep that corporation tax advantage forever.

Geuze

After firms pay CT, if their taxed profits are paid out as dividends or capital gains, then that is taxed by income tax or CGT.

So no income gets away untaxed.

OK, this may not be 100% true across countries.

But any shareholder living in Ireland, pays income tax and/or CGT on any dividends or capital gains.

So even if CT was cut to 0%, that larger post-tax profit is still eventually taxed.

BalcombeSt4

Lol I know. Chomsky always mentions Ireland as a tax haven when he's talking about world economics. Were basically the whores of Europe.

Fann Linn

No

Addyson Yummy Souvenir wrote: »

They pay the best, have the best benefits, are the best people to work for etc it's more we need to attract in not have less of them. I'd have no issue with even more preferential treatment If it means more highly skilled and highly paid jobs for the highly educated and skilled people in the country.

I'm sure the people who worked in Dell will obviously agree with you.

After they had to go cap in hand to Siptu to try and organise their redundancies when Dell left for Poland.

An_Toirpin

Tax havens only exist because some nations (traditionally the US) have excessively high taxation rates.

Assetbacked

No

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals. Normal PAYE workers make up the shortfall and we are already at breaking point with the average Joe who is anticipating tax cuts, particularly with USC as they rightly should. However, should other countries reign in companies which book profits abroad in havens such as Ireland (which arguably does meet the requirements for a tax haven if you are of the opinion that dealings are not transparent) then there could be tax take shortfalls in the hundreds of millions or even billions ready for average Joe to be taxed again.

In addition, related to the tax haven point, is that swathes of land have also been hoovered up by investment funds with foreign investors, who pay no tax on the acquisition and disposal or rent takings connected with such land. The government has caused the housing crisis through inaction and lost the ability to fix the housing crisis.

The economy is in the **** to be frank; we have only seen in Ireland the wealth being pushed to the top. I’ve posted this before but I strongly feel that conditions for income tax paying workers are not far off what they were in the recession due to the housing and rental crisis mixed with general exorbitant cost of everything really. Sure it is rosy for the employees of multinationals who, instead of paying taxes, pay higher wages to these lucky few who were brought over from abroad to populate an EMEA head office.

Interesting thread here, a lot to read in it! http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66282&sid=969c114e95772c3a0b4b1bfe870bab0b

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals. Normal PAYE workers make up the shortfall and we are already at breaking point with the average Joe who is anticipating tax cuts, particularly with USC as they rightly should. However, should other countries reign in companies which book profits abroad in havens such as Ireland (which arguably does meet the requirements for a tax haven if you are of the opinion that dealings are not transparent) then there could be tax take shortfalls in the hundreds of millions or even billions ready for average Joe to be taxed again.

In addition, related to the tax haven point, is that swathes of land have also been hoovered up by investment funds with foreign investors, who pay no tax on the acquisition and disposal or rent takings connected with such land. The government has caused the housing crisis through inaction and lost the ability to fix the housing crisis.

The economy is in the **** to be frank; we have only seen in Ireland the wealth being pushed to the top. I’ve posted this before but I strongly feel that conditions for income tax paying workers are not far off what they were in the recession due to the housing and rental crisis mixed with general exorbitant cost of everything really. Sure it is rosy for the employees of multinationals who, instead of paying taxes, pay higher wages to these lucky few who were brought over from abroad to populate an EMEA head office.

Interesting thread here, a lot to read in it! http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66282&sid=969c114e95772c3a0b4b1bfe870bab0b

Well you’re first sentence is a lie.

Every company pays 12.5% tax on profits in Ireland which is law.

Simple as that.

The rest is rambling nonsense.

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

riffmongous wrote: »

Yeah this is the problem, I'd prefer an Ireland that isn't so heavily dependent on foreign profit-slaves. Sure keep them happy but it's irresponsible to depend on them

With what???????

Assetbacked

No

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well you’re first sentence is a lie.

Every company pays 12.5% tax on profits in Ireland which is law.

Simple as that.

The rest is rambling nonsense.

The effective tax rate is not 12.5% in practice, normally for the larger companies.

And what is nonsense? I’m not expecting much other than garbage from wheeliebin30

Ipso

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals. Normal PAYE workers make up the shortfall and we are already at breaking point with the average Joe who is anticipating tax cuts, particularly with USC as they rightly should. However, should other countries reign in companies which book profits abroad in havens such as Ireland (which arguably does meet the requirements for a tax haven if you are of the opinion that dealings are not transparent) then there could be tax take shortfalls in the hundreds of millions or even billions ready for average Joe to be taxed again.

In addition, related to the tax haven point, is that swathes of land have also been hoovered up by investment funds with foreign investors, who pay no tax on the acquisition and disposal or rent takings connected with such land. The government has caused the housing crisis through inaction and lost the ability to fix the housing crisis.

The economy is in the **** to be frank; we have only seen in Ireland the wealth being pushed to the top. I’ve posted this before but I strongly feel that conditions for income tax paying workers are not far off what they were in the recession due to the housing and rental crisis mixed with general exorbitant cost of everything really. Sure it is rosy for the employees of multinationals who, instead of paying taxes, pay higher wages to these lucky few who were brought over from abroad to populate an EMEA head office.

Interesting thread here, a lot to read in it! http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66282&sid=969c114e95772c3a0b4b1bfe870bab0b

How does PAYE workers make up the short fall?

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is not 12.5% in practice, normally for the larger companies.

And what is nonsense? I’m not expecting much other than garbage from wheeliebin30

Link to your claim the effective rate is not 12.5%?

Assetbacked

No

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Link to your claim the effective rate is not 12.5%?

https://fora.ie/effective-tax-rate-ireland-3622827-Sep2017/

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

I'm sure the people who worked in Dell will obviously agree with you.

After they had to go cap in hand to Siptu to try and organise their redundancies when Dell left for Poland.

how long had dell been in place, and to what positive effect in that time to their employees, to small businesses around them, to the universities and students locally, to the local authority they paid rates to

a MNC doesnt have to hang around forever for the area to benefit hugely long after its gone

Assetbacked

No

Ipso wrote: »

How does PAYE workers make up the short fall?

At the moment the government is being hounded from many different sectors which feel that a break is deserved following years of recession and enduring cuts. If half a billion or more was wiped from the coffers, rather than implementing the promised tax cuts to workers, these would likely stall or be negligible (as with last year’s budget).

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

Assetbacked wrote: »

https://fora.ie/effective-tax-rate-ireland-3622827-Sep2017/

Did you read what you linked?

Do you know the differences between corporation tax which is tax on profits not income?

Once again as stated by revenue every company in Ireland paid 12.5% tax on their profits generated in Ireland by law.

This is well known except by pbp and aaa type lunatics.

Assetbacked

No

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Did you read what you linked?

Do you know the differences between corporation tax which is tax on profits not income?

Once again as stated by revenue every company in Ireland paid 12.5% tax on their profits as by law.

This is well known except ny pbp and aaa type lunatics.

At this point you must be trolling given;

(1) your lazy initial dismissal; and
(2) asking for proof then re-hashing your point on which you refuse to be convinced otherwise.

In the link I quoted it clearly refers to corporation tax.

“This masks significant variations within the top 100 companies. While 79 of the top 100 companies had an effective corporation tax rate of between 10% and 15%, 13 had an effective rate of less than 1%.”

VinLieger

Assetbacked wrote: »

At this point you must be trolling given;

(1) your lazy initial dismissal; and
(2) asking for proof then re-hashing your point on which you refuse to be convinced otherwise.

In the link I quoted it clearly refers to corporation tax.

“This masks significant variations within the top 100 companies. While 79 of the top 100 companies had an effective corporation tax rate of between 10% and 15%, 13 had an effective rate of less than 1%.”

And heres what you claimed do you see how they are different?

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals

Also theres so much wrong with your original post im not sure i even know where to start

Assetbacked wrote: »

The effective tax rate is zero for big multinationals. Normal PAYE workers make up the shortfall and we are already at breaking point with the average Joe who is anticipating tax cuts, particularly with USC as they rightly should.

Firstly thats not how taxes work nobody makes up the difference. Secondly the USC is currently the fairest and most logical tax we have as it broadens the tax base significantly which was one of our main issues during the recession in that so many people were paying no income tax. I find it funny how you have a problem with corporations not paying tax on their incomes and want to broaden that tax base but are for reducing the number of people paying tax on their incomes and want to shrink that one. Bit of a disconnect there no?


Also as you yourself showed the effective tax rate is nowhere near 0 for the vast majority of these companies.

Assetbacked wrote: »

However, should other countries reign in companies which book profits abroad in havens such as Ireland (which arguably does meet the requirements for a tax haven if you are of the opinion that dealings are not transparent) then there could be tax take shortfalls in the hundreds of millions or even billions ready for average Joe to be taxed again.

Nope if we went the route of tax harmonisation across europe as you seem to be arguing it would be the case these companies paid taxes on profits made in those countries we wouldnt see a sniff of what you claim, similar to what will happen with the apple 13 billion it will be divided amongst the rest of europe with us seeing very little.

Assetbacked wrote: »

In addition, related to the tax haven point, is that swathes of land have also been hoovered up by investment funds with foreign investors, who pay no tax on the acquisition and disposal or rent takings connected with such land. The government has caused the housing crisis through inaction and lost the ability to fix the housing crisis.

What is your solution we make it illegal to purchase land unless you are an irish citizen? I think the EU might have a problem with that.

Assetbacked wrote: »

The economy is in the **** to be frank; we have only seen in Ireland the wealth being pushed to the top. I’ve posted this before but I strongly feel that conditions for income tax paying workers are not far off what they were in the recession due to the housing and rental crisis mixed with general exorbitant cost of everything really. Sure it is rosy for the employees of multinationals who, instead of paying taxes, pay higher wages to these lucky few who were brought over from abroad to populate an EMEA head office.

Not much point in even addressing this as everything in here is a basically a lie and you have no evidence to back any of it up.


I did enjoy your ignoring of the fact that tax avoidance as is done here is practiced in many other EU country as well, its just not written about as they like to make ireland a bit of a scape goat. France may like to spout about their 21% cosporate tax but their effective tax is far closer to ours at around 6-9%. And if you have a problem with the double irish, which has been stopped and will be fully gone by 2021, i suggest you look into something called the dutch sandwich which unlike the double irish is still perfectly legal.

Wanderer78

I would class Ireland as a type of tax haven, we probably should be using things such as sovereign wealth funds to truly utilise this position

Wheeliebin30

Yes, but with conditions

Assetbacked wrote: »

At this point you must be trolling given;

(1) your lazy initial dismissal; and
(2) asking for proof then re-hashing your point on which you refuse to be convinced otherwise.

In the link I quoted it clearly refers to corporation tax.

“This masks significant variations within the top 100 companies. While 79 of the top 100 companies had an effective corporation tax rate of between 10% and 15%, 13 had an effective rate of less than 1%.”

Once again, all mncs and companies in Ireland pay 12.5% tax on their profits in Ireland as has been proven by revenue only recently.

You’re wrong and I suggest you read your link again.

Grab All Association

Yes, but with conditions

One of the conditions of passing Lisbon II was protection of our corporate tax rates. Any attempt of harmonisation surely makes Lisbon null and void?

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

Once again, all mncs and companies in Ireland pay 12.5% tax on their profits in Ireland as has been proven by revenue only recently.

According to Cormac lucey, up to about a year or so ago, the average was about 11.5, so not too bad compared to previous estimations

Wanderer78

Grab All Association wrote:

One of the conditions of passing Lisbon II was protection of our corporate tax rates. Any attempt of harmonisation surely makes Lisbon null and void?

In a union that's not exactly democratic in its workings, some things can be changed relatively easily

Padraig Mor

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Once again, all mncs and companies in Ireland pay 12.5% tax on their profits in Ireland as has been proven by revenue only recently.

You’re wrong and I suggest you read your link again.

It's feck all to do with the corporate tax rate and all to do with the corporate tax base - doesn't matter what your rate is if you ain't charging it on the majority of the (some would say dodgily routed to Ireland) dosh - and conversely, if the tax base is a level pitch across Europe (as is the plan), Ireland won't have much left to be charging its 12.5% on.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

The bit I don't get about the likes of Yanis Varoufakis and other Marxist economists is why they are expecting capitalism to change to suit them as essentially their philosophy is that capitalism should be torn down.

They analysists used to try and make the case that Ireland is a tax haven is flimsy and weak and is trying to push a narrative or make the facts fit a narrative.

We are possibly walking a very fine line though but that does not make Ireland a tax haven.

Wanderer78

mariaalice wrote: »

The bit I don't get about the likes of Yanis Varoufakis and other Marxist economists is why they are expecting capitalism to change to suit them as essentially their philosophy is that capitalism should be torn down.

They analysists used to try and make the case that Ireland is a tax haven is flimsy and weak and is trying to push a narrative or make the facts fit a narrative.

We are possibly walking a very fine line though but that does not make Ireland a tax haven.

so much so, varoufakis was trying to reduce the corporate tax rate of Greece, in order to try grow their economy, in order to try pay back the bail outs, also noting, it was refused by the troika.