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Transgender man wants to be named as father...

  • 08-06-2018 3:21am
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44400736
    A transgender man wants to be listed as his baby's father or parent after being told he had to be named the mother because he gave birth to the child. The High Court was told he was born a woman but had legally become a man by the time of the birth.

    He is challenging a law which requires people who give birth to be registered as mothers. If successful, his child could become the first person born in England and Wales to not legally have a mother.


    I'm sure theres another thread somewhere around here I could stick this in, but I couldn't find one suitable, and I reckon it deserves its own discussion...

    where are the boundaries between sex and gender?

    can a man become pregnant / give birth?

    does this bring up an awkward question among trans people:
    how many trans people actually physically transition?
    (how many can afford to? how many actually want to?)
    Tagged:


«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    You can't change biology. The words "man" and "woman", "father" and "mother" mean something beyond gender identity when it comes to the biological realities of reproduction. This is a female who gave birth to a child. Same as every other person who has ever given birth in the history of human beings. Until the birth certificate changes the definition of mother/father and disregards the identities of 99.9% of females who give birth then they are the mother.

    What's the alternative? They would have to be gender neutral. Gestator and impregnator? Birthing person and fertilising person maybe? That could apply to everyone without offense to the tiny minority of trans gender parents I guess.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    where are the boundaries between sex and gender?


    Sex relates to biology, gender relates to sociology.

    can a man become pregnant / give birth?


    No, of course not.

    does this bring up an awkward question among trans people:
    how many trans people actually physically transition?
    (how many can afford to? how many actually want to?)


    No idea, but it's fairly contentious anyway among people who identify as transgender that those who have only socially transitioned are derided as "transtrender" because they have decided not to have any medical or cosmetic procedures done to alter their physical appearance. There's also research now which suggests that gender confirmation surgery is ineffective in the long term and that the numbers of people who want to detransition is increasing (although this could be a side effect of the number of people who are transitioning in the first place is increasing).

    In the circumstances of the case above, it's a mildly interesting legal test case, not much more to it. It could see legal provisions being introduced for people who are transgender in the future, but there's no precedent in law for it that I can think of currently.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,681 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    The world's gone mad I tell ye!

    This guy(girl) is claiming its infringing his human right, did he ever think about her/his child and how it might be affected in the future.

    Its all me, me, me. I hope a sensible judge somewhere tells this guy to catch himself on and that he's the mother whether he likes it or not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭Pac1Man


    I feel his pain.

    I had a dinosaur Tamagotchi back in the day and irrationally felt that I was his mother.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,639 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    Just name him on the cert as 'Proto-mother'.

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭jacksie66


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    The Rotunda " a mostly woman's hospital"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,044 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    We need to stop giving these people attention. Then maybe they will cop on and act rationally.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    What a crock of ****e, I hope its thrown out and full costs awarded against her!

    She gave birth to a baby, therefore she had a vagina, therefore she is female therefore she is the mother. End of story, there is no grey area in this.

    What she done with her vagina afterwards is irrelevant, she's the child mother. I pity the poor child, she should be concentrating on looking after and rearing her child instead of chasing stupid ridiculous titles in court.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,501 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    jacksie66 wrote: »
    There's only 2 genders, male and female. Anyone who thinks there's more is either looking for attention or has serious mental issues..

    I believe people should be able to do whatever they want.
    They can call themselves a man, woman or a dinosaur for all i care.

    But the law should absolutely not be changed to accommodate people like this.

    If you are born a Man then you remain a man for the rest of your life in the eyes of the law.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭jacksie66


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    They should just change the birth certs to read "Parent 1" and "Parent A".


  • Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,238 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    [

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24



    “He is challenging a law”

    Let me rephrase for the BBC: that person is challenging basic biology.

    And it is a lost battle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,044 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    GLaDOS wrote: »
    [

    Not sure how this is relevant, but still a great clip. Have a thanks on me.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Maxpfizer


    They should just change the birth certs to read "Parent 1" and "Parent A".

    Maybe "Egg Provider" and "Sperm Provider" or something like that?

    I was thinking it's gonna be pretty weird when the parents and teachers of the distant future have to answer the old "where do babies come from"?

    So there's a "person with a penis and testicles and a person with a vagina and ovaries" etc and it's only a matter of time before someone starts wondering if there is some shorthand way of describing the 2 different types of Homo Sapiens like some kind of word we could use to describe people who have "Parent 1" type biology and some other word we could use to describe people who have "Parent A" type biology.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    The child was "fathered" by this person....that should be that in terms of this particular issue

    What the person later did with their lives is their own business but I don't think the matter can be revised retrospectively


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭HappyAsLarE


    If my granny had balls she’d be my granny with balls.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Maxpfizer


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What's the alternative? They would have to be gender neutral. Gestator and impregnator? Birthing person and fertilising person maybe? That could apply to everyone without offense to the tiny minority of trans gender parents I guess.

    What's interesting about that is that it feels like the main issue is simply the connotations, or the baggage, that comes with phrases like "Man" and "Woman" etc.

    Like if "Mother" simply means the person who gave birth to the child then what would be the issue here?

    "I gave birth to the child, yes, but don't call me the child's mother" seems like an objection to the associations that people make with the word "mother".

    It kind of is just an argument over definitions.

    It's true about "Mother" and "Father" though as the words can have a much deeper and nuanced meaning and you'll here people using "biological mother" etc in situations where extra information is needed.

    We'd have to move to a much more rigid and descriptive language were words can only describe things in a very precise way or people will object because the word you used to describe them has other connotations.

    Even something like "impregnator" might not necessarily work as it can be seen to have deeper meaning.

    The Guardian, June 2068: Why "Impregnator" is an oppressive term with roots in toxic patriarchy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    So let's get this whole thing straight she gives birth to this child as a woman and now she wants to be recognized as the father. She obviously missed biology class at school because she would know that its physically impossible for a father to give birth to a child only a mother does which she is no amount of PC pestering is going to change that biological fact.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I see what he's trying to do, but there is a nuance here that's being missed - as someone pointed out there will always be a male/female gamete in the fertilization process and there will always be someone who carries the child. That's an unavoidable fact of biology. One can't claim their egg is male because they identify as a man. That's not how it works.

    That person is the "mother", which isn't necessarily a gendered term. The problem is more that we use the terms "mother" and "father" across a massive spectrum; they don't necessarily refer to the person who provided sperm, or the person who carried the child. Sometimes "father" is used to refer to someone who's not even a member of the family.

    But I think the law needs to be very specific about ensuring that for registration purposes that there is a record kept of who provided which role in the conception of the child. I don't really care whether they use "mother" and "father", but I see no reason why they shouldn't - for the purposes of birth registration these are well understood and well defined terms. The important thing is ensuring that the wording is clear, and we don't have a scenario where the sperm-supplier is registered as the mother, and the womb-lessor is registered as the father.

    Outside of the birth certificate if you want to call yourself the child's father, mother, "healing protector" or "spiritual guru", IDGAF.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    Its shameful about this blatant attack on scientific reality which is being encouraged a very disturbing trend is being pushed in our direction and it needs to be pushed right back in the opposite direction from which it came biological facts need to prevail against PC sensitivities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,472 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Let me rephrase for the BBC: that person is challenging basic biology.

    And it is a lost battle.

    No they're not. they are asking to be identified by a particular gender. Honestly though it the law as it is makes no sense. You can identify as a particular gender and then legally you can be recognised as that gender. However for some reason there are certain times when you have to be recognised as a different gender?

    If the law is going to recognise someone as the gender they want, then the law needs to extend that to all aspects of their lives. It's ridiculous to think that someone could get a new driving license with their new gender but then have to be referred to by a different gender when they go to their kids school.

    What a crock of ****e, I hope its thrown out and full costs awarded against her!

    She gave birth to a baby, therefore she had a vagina, therefore she is female therefore she is the mother. End of story, there is no grey area in this.

    What she done with her vagina afterwards is irrelevant, she's the child mother. I pity the poor child, she should be concentrating on looking after and rearing her child instead of chasing stupid ridiculous titles in court.

    I'd love to be able to determine how good someone is as a parent and how much they love their child the way you can. Do you consult psychics? is it tarot cards? because I can't see any rational way you could say they're not a good parent based on this story.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    What a crock of ****e, I hope its thrown out and full costs awarded against her!

    She gave birth to a baby, therefore she had a vagina, therefore she is female therefore she is the mother. End of story, there is no grey area in this.

    What she done with her vagina afterwards is irrelevant, she's the child mother. I pity the poor child, she should be concentrating on looking after and rearing her child instead of chasing stupid ridiculous titles in court.


    That's pretty needlessly vitriolic. Whatever about the merits, or lack thereof, of the argument, why do you feel the need to so aggressively misgender the person involved?

    Maxpfizer wrote: »
    Maybe "Egg Provider" and "Sperm Provider" or something like that?


    Wouldn't really work either. There can be cases where one of those is not considered a parent, such as sperm donations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    Riskymove wrote: »
    The child was "fathered" by this person....that should be that in terms of this particular issue

    What the person later did with their lives is their own business but I don't think the matter can be revised retrospectively

    The person is a woman, she has since become a man.

    I think this person gave up any right to challenge the terms used on the birth cert when they got themselves pregnant and gave birth to a child. If it was their intention (and obviously that wasn't an overnight decision) to become a man then they should possibly have avoided getting pregnant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    That's pretty needlessly vitriolic. Whatever about the merits, or lack thereof, of the argument, why do you feel the need to so aggressively misgender the person involved?

    Because it angers me that our society is starting to become overrun with this type of bull****.

    And I haven't mis-gendered anyone, we are talking about a woman who gave birth to a baby. It is not possible for men to give birth, there are no other genders and so the person is a woman and therefore the 'mother'

    What that person does with their body afterwards is irrelevant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭somefeen


    Dunno about this.
    My father is a trans woman. She can have her own birth cert changed but don't think she's at all bothered about being called "father" on my birth cert.
    Biologically she is still my father. You can't change that.
    I'm all for recognising trans peoples identities but we can't bang the drum of "gender is not the same as sex" without actually allowing for that distinction to be made when necessary.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Because it angers me that our society is starting to become overrun with this type of bull****.

    And I haven't mis-gendered anyone, we are talking about a woman who gave birth to a baby. It is not possible for men to give birth, there are no other genders and so the person is a woman and therefore the 'mother'

    What that person does with their body afterwards is irrelevant.


    Why does it make you so angry? Live and let live. What does it matter to you what a person wants to be called? Why are you so opposed to simply calling someone by the pronoun they prefer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Grayson wrote: »
    No they're not. they are asking to be identified by a particular gender. Honestly though it the law as it is makes no sense. You can identify as a particular gender and then legally you can be recognised as that gender. However for some reason there are certain times when you have to be recognised as a different gender?
    Are "mother" and "father" genders these days?
    I cant keep up.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭mickuhaha


    Mother has a legal definition "A woman who has borne a child". An unusual legal term is "for natural love and affection". Just means near relation no hands tied. I think people need to rethink what defines as gender anymore as sex is locked into biology. The idea that gender is social construction would mean that either we stop using gender as a term that's related to sex and use sex instead of gender on paperwork meaning transgenders will have to put their birth sex down on this paperwork instead of their gender identity or we use gender as a term that includes sex in its language. Again mother does not mean you are male of female gender.
    ??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    The person is a woman, she has since become a man.

    I think this person gave up any right to challenge the terms used on the birth cert when they got themselves pregnant and gave birth to a child. If it was their intention (and obviously that wasn't an overnight decision) to become a man then they should possibly have avoided getting pregnant.

    sorry mis-read
    but basic point applies, as you say, the person was the mother at the time


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Lets just use chromosomes and be done with it.
    Maybe tattoos on peoples foreheads?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The world's gone mad..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Riskymove wrote: »
    sorry mis-read
    but basic point applies, as you say, the person was the mother at the time

    The person was and will always be the mother of the child.
    They can change their gender in the same way they change their religion, but they still had a baby come out of them, thus they are a mother.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Grayson wrote: »
    No they're not. they are asking to be identified by a particular gender.

    The person is asking to be referenced as a father after giving birth to a child.

    This is challenging basic biology and is not a matter of personal identification.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Jayzus lads this madness needs to stop.

    If you've given birth to a child that makes you it's mother, by definition. No ifs no buts.
    If you then want to become that child's father....that's fine if that's what tickles your fancies.

    But at the time the child was born you were it's mother so that's what should go on the birth cert


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭mickuhaha


    In legal terms he not the father. He is the mother . The only case where he would become a father after that point would be if he adopted another child to which he didn't give birth. But he would still be mother to the child he gave birth to. He could of course call himself the father everyday like a nick name but for legal us he would be described as the mother.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    GreeBo wrote: »
    The person was and will always be the mother of the child.
    They can change their gender in the same way they change their religion, but they still had a baby come out of them, thus they are a mother.

    so we agree


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Bob24 wrote: »
    This is challenging basic biology and is not a matter of personal identification.

    exactly

    Joan Bloggs gave birth to a baby so is the mother and it is recorded as such
    Presumably someone else is the father

    If Joan subsequently became Joe Bloggs that is their perogative but you cannot retrospectively revise history. Joan was Joan up until the point she became Joe


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,635 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I'm very liberal and supportive of rights to the myriad of letters under the LGBTQI...... spectrum.
    But this is ridiculous.

    If a person wants to identify as he/she/zhe/whatever else that's fine and more power to them.
    But you cannot change the scientific facts of biology which are that each child has a sperm from a father and is given birth to by its mother.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,514 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ELM327 wrote: »
    But you cannot change the scientific facts of biology which are that each child has a sperm from a father and is given birth to by its mother.
    You can't change the biology, but you can change the meaning of words, which I suppose is the entire argument here.

    The words mother and father aren't strictly aligned to whether you contributed sperm or an egg to a new human, just look at adoptive parents or people using surrogates/sperm/egg donations.

    If not is it then aligned to your gender at time of conception, or is it aligned to your biological sex at time of conception, or is it something that can be changed retroactively depending on your current circumstances? Those are the questions that it's no harm asking and getting an answer for. Maybe they don't need to be answered. Maybe there's no need for those words, maybe "parent A" and "B" would do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,635 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    TheChizler wrote: »
    You can't change the biology, but you can change the meaning of words, which I suppose is the entire argument here.

    The words mother and father aren't strictly aligned to whether you contributed sperm or an egg to a new human, just look at adoptive parents or people using surrogates/sperm/egg donations.

    If not is it then aligned to your gender at time of conception, or is it aligned to your biological sex at time of conception, or is it something that can be changed retroactively depending on your current circumstances? Those are the questions that it's no harm asking and getting an answer for. Maybe they don't need to be answered. Maybe there's no need for those words, maybe "parent A" and "B" would do.
    I'm sorry but this post is exactly what is wrong with the world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,514 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    ELM327 wrote: »
    I'm sorry but this post is exactly what is wrong with the world.
    Go on, how? Have I advocated a position or something? What's wrong with challenging our understanding of words and examining their meaning?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Go on, how? Have I advocated a position or something? What's wrong with challenging our understanding of words and examining their meaning?

    If you keep challenging everything that some tiny minority have an issue with you end up with a non functioning society.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    Why does it make you so angry? Live and let live. What does it matter to you what a person wants to be called? Why are you so opposed to simply calling someone by the pronoun they prefer?

    That would be fine and I would be all for it if that's all they wanted but its turning out than much more than that. People are taking high court (and higher) actions to have these things changed in age old traditions/customs and every one else is being forced to agree with it. If the person wants to be recognised as a woman that is absolutely fine, if they want people to refer to them as he/she/ze what ever, that is also fine but don't ask society to change its rules/traditions so that you can have a little piece of paper with your title on it, don't expect everyone to bow to your wishes and demands when you are the one that is in a tiny minority.

    It may appear only a small issue but these type issues are becoming so common nowadays and its creeping into every part of our lives and we are the ones expected to change and suffer it. It is already an issue in primary schools where children as young as 5/6 are supposedly gender fluid** and other children are being asked to refrain from calling them he/she so as not to offend the child. The child also is allowed to use the teachers private toilets so as not to be forced into use the regular male/female toilets.


    ** there is no such thing but that's the term coined by the parents of the child.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    That would be fine and I would be all for it if that's all they wanted but its turning out than much more than that. People are taking high court (and higher) actions to have these things changed in age old traditions/customs and every one else is being forced to agree with it. If the person wants to be recognised as a woman that is absolutely fine, if they want people to refer to them as he/she/ze what ever, that is also fine but don't ask society to change its rules/traditions so that you can have a little piece of paper with your title on it, don't expect everyone to bow to your wishes and demands when you are the one that is in a tiny minority.

    It may appear only a small issue but these type issues are becoming so common nowadays and its creeping into every part of our lives and we are the ones expected to change and suffer it. It is already an issue in primary schools where children as young as 5/6 are supposedly gender fluid** and other children are being asked to refrain from calling them he/she so as not to offend the child. The child also is allowed to use the teachers private toilets so as not to be forced into use the regular male/female toilets.


    ** there is no such thing but that's the term coined by the parents of the child.


    You say it's fine but you completely refused to do it multiple times.


    What a crock of ****e, I hope its thrown out and full costs awarded against her!

    She gave birth to a baby, therefore she had a vagina, therefore she is female therefore she is the mother. End of story, there is no grey area in this.

    What she done with her vagina afterwards is irrelevant, she's the child mother. I pity the poor child, she should be concentrating on looking after and rearing her child instead of chasing stupid ridiculous titles in court.


    In fact, it seems you tried as hard as possible to fit as many female pronouns in as possible. That goes way beyond simply objecting to the word mother being changed to mean something else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Lets just use chromosomes and be done with it.
    Maybe tattoos on peoples foreheads?

    I second this

    XX - M
    XY F
    XYT/YXT TRans


    Sound catchy :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,514 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    GreeBo wrote: »
    If you keep challenging everything that some tiny minority have an issue with you end up with a non functioning society.
    Maybe if you were to change everything on a whim but how is challenging and discussing things going to cause the downfall of society?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 815 ✭✭✭animaal


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Go on, how? Have I advocated a position or something? What's wrong with challenging our understanding of words and examining their meaning?

    What's being demanded is more than challenging "our understanding" of words. It's an attempt to change the meaning of words, in this case to protect people's feelings.

    The person who gave birth to you is your natural (or "birth") mother, regardless of what she did or later became.

    The primary purpose of the birth cert is to record the details of *your birth*, not the preferences and feelings of the other people involved in your birth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    You say it's fine but you completely refused to do it multiple times.

    In fact, it seems you tried as hard as possible to fit as many female pronouns in as possible. That goes way beyond simply objecting to the word mother being changed to mean something else.

    Ok point taken but what I'm trying to get at is this persons attempts at changing the birth cert which should be refused and rejected.


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