Mansfield trial collapses

Savage93

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/trial-of-late-billionaire-jim-mansfields-son-who-was-accused-of-possessing-1252-bullets-collapses-36979894.html

Opinions??
Money talking or Garda F**k up

Grizzly 45

Utter cluster fuk from the word go. Apparently, this all started with a CAB raid, RE his late fathers business dealings, and it was CAB officers that discovered the loaded.22 behind the picture..Do CAB officers have authority to handle firearms or take them as evidence??

Yes, he was a dope to have that much ammo unaccounted for in the house and being 12 times over the limit too. But if AGS cant handle the evidence properly, someone should have counted the rounds as evidence there and then for a start, and cant produce crucial evidence, well then...

Or it became such a shambles of a case that it was maybe decided to just fuk up the evidence to collapse the trial by sloppy procedures,as it had proceeded too far to be withdrawn as a criminal case without too many questions being asked?

Cass

Read about it in the paper today and from the article it said that because the Gardaí/DPP could not provide evidence to the Jury to show he was over his limit, the case was dismissed.

I don't get it myself. A scan of his license, a print out of his PULSE details would have done this so if they wanted to nail him this would have been a pretty important thing to have. Be the same as going into a murder trial and saying you forgot to bring the bloody knife.

BattleCorp

Very strange. I would have thought it was a relatively simple thing to prove, i.e. read the feckin license or the computer screen.

Gardai saying 'I think' in court also isn't very good. Either they know or they don't know how many rounds he is entitled to.

gooseygander

More evidence that the law is a total ass in this country and judges make crazy decisions. Ffs he had over 1200 bullets. There is no firearm license in existence that entitles any single person to have that many rounds, period. So whether his firearm license stipulated 200,300 or even 400 he certainly should not have had 1200. Its a point that could have been clarified in 5 mins without directing the jury to find not guilty, total joke in my opinion.

Half-cocked

Reading the judges reasons for throwing it out, I have to say I find myself in agreement with him. As a firearms owner, I'd hate to find myself in court potentially being convicted on the word of a garda with no supporting evidence. The AGS (or rather certain members of the force) are openly hostile towards civilian firearms owners and would love it if judges just took their word for it that so and so needed to have his guns taken off him because in my opinion he's got too many rounds etc.


Having said that, what sort of incompetence leads to a case which has been rumbling on for years now being thrown out because no one in the AGS or DPP bothered to photocopy the back of the license where the pertinent info was printed???? How much taxpayers money was wasted on this case? Will anyone be held accountable? Of course not.

Gravelly

gooseygander wrote: »

More evidence that the law is a total ass in this country and judges make crazy decisions. Ffs he had over 1200 bullets. There is no firearm license in existence that entitles any single person to have that many rounds, period. So whether his firearm license stipulated 200,300 or even 400 he certainly should not have had 1200. Its a point that could have been clarified in 5 mins without directing the jury to find not guilty, total joke in my opinion.

A friend of mine has 5000 rounds on his .22. I have 1000 on mine. I understand there are several lads in my club who have 5000 on theirs.

Grizzly 45

Got 1K worth on mine.;)

clivej

Lad in our club has 9,000 .22 on one and 1,000 on the other. Also some Benchrest shooters have unlimited amount stated.

BattleCorp

gooseygander wrote: »

There is no firearm license in existence that entitles any single person to have that many rounds, period.

I have 5000 rounds on one of my licenses.

gunny123

Half-cocked wrote: »

Having said that, what sort of incompetence leads to a case which has been rumbling on for years now being thrown out because no one in the AGS or DPP bothered to photocopy the back of the license where the pertinent info was printed???? How much taxpayers money was wasted on this case? Will anyone be held accountable? Of course not.

I wonder was the court case itself a punishment ? You know "we know we won't get a conviction, but we can have the unpleasant prospect of a court case hanging over you for a few years".

Cass

I can see AGS now:

Gravelly wrote: »

A friend of mine has 5000 rounds on his .22. I have 1000 on mine. I understand there are several lads in my club who have 5000 on theirs.

Cut his to 100

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Got 1K worth on mine.;)

Cut his to 100

clivej wrote: »

Lad in our club has 9,000 .22 on one and 1,000 on the other. Also some Benchrest shooters have unlimited amount stated.

Cut these to 100

BattleCorp wrote: »

I have 5000 rounds on one of my licenses.

Cut this to 100.

scwazrh

clivej wrote: »

Lad in our club has 9,000 .22 on one and 1,000 on the other. Also some Benchrest shooters have unlimited amount stated.

How is it possible to have 9000 rounds on a single license?The commissioners guidelines is 750-1000 for target shooting. What purpose would be suitable to allow 9 times the average ?

solarwinds

Buying a batch of ammo at a time for consistency. From what i hear.

gunny123

What does the ammo limit achieve anyway ? Its another law carried over from the civil war era, that does not actually do anything.

Cass

scwazrh wrote: »

How is it possible to have 9000 rounds on a single license?The commissioners guidelines is 750-1000 for target shooting. What purpose would be suitable to allow 9 times the average ?

gunny123 wrote: »

What does the ammo limit achieve anyway ? Its another law carried over from the civil war era, that does not actually do anything.

Quoting both these as my response covers both.

There are no ammo limits, in law. There is no Act, SI, directive, etc. that says you cannot have more than "X" amount of ammo.

The commissioner's guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are what the Commissioner considers to be averages for each given discipline. However they can be less of more if you can show good reason.

Not to highlight myself incase my joke above comes through, but i had:

3 x .22lr rifle with 1,500 on each
2 x 308 rifles with 1,000 on one and 2,000 on the other
2 x shotguns with 2,000 on both

I gave clear and precise reasons as to why i needed that amount attaching supporting documentation. We listed some of them in this post (thanks to Hexosan)

Without going too much off topic there are a number of things we in the shooting community take as being law when there is no law for it. Of the top of my head things like:

• Ammo allowance - You can have as much as you can prove you need.
• Firearms - There is no limit to the amount of or the frequency with which you apply for them.
• Deer hunting - There is no 100 acre minimum in any firearm or Wildlife Act that the NPWS say is a legal requirement.

We have convinced ourselves through not knowing or being told so by someone classed as expert or in a position of power that these such restraints are legally in place when in fact they're not.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Quoting both these as my response covers both.

There are no ammo limits, in law. There is no Act, SI, directive, etc. that says you cannot have more than "X" amount of ammo.

The commissioner's guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are what the Commissioner considers to be averages for each given discipline. However they can be less of more if you can show good reason.

Not to highlight myself incase my joke above comes through, but i had:

3 x .22lr rifle with 1,500 on each
2 x 308 rifles with 1,000 on one and 2,000 on the other
2 x shotguns with 2,000 on both

I gave clear and precise reasons as to why i needed that amount attaching supporting documentation. We listed some of them in this post (thanks to Hexosan)

Without going too much off topic there are a number of things we in the shooting community take as being law when there is no law for it. Of the top of my head things like:

• Ammo allowance - You can have as much as you can prove you need.
• Firearms - There is no limit to the amount of or the frequency with which you apply for them.
• Deer hunting - There is no 100 acre minimum in any firearm or Wildlife Act that the NPWS say is a legal requirement.

We have convinced ourselves through not knowing or being told so by someone classed as expert or in a position of power that these such restraints are legally in place when in fact they're not.

So if ammo limits aren't written in law, what was the basis for this prosecution?

Gravelly

Cass wrote: »

Quoting both these as my response covers both.

There are no ammo limits, in law. There is no Act, SI, directive, etc. that says you cannot have more than "X" amount of ammo.

The commissioner's guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are what the Commissioner considers to be averages for each given discipline. However they can be less of more if you can show good reason.

Not to highlight myself incase my joke above comes through, but i had:

3 x .22lr rifle with 1,500 on each
2 x 308 rifles with 1,000 on one and 2,000 on the other
2 x shotguns with 2,000 on both

I gave clear and precise reasons as to why i needed that amount attaching supporting documentation. We listed some of them in this post (thanks to Hexosan)

Without going too much off topic there are a number of things we in the shooting community take as being law when there is no law for it. Of the top of my head things like:

• Ammo allowance - You can have as much as you can prove you need.
• Firearms - There is no limit to the amount of or the frequency with which you apply for them.
• Deer hunting - There is no 100 acre minimum in any firearm or Wildlife Act that the NPWS say is a legal requirement.

We have convinced ourselves through not knowing or being told so by someone classed as expert or in a position of power that these such restraints are legally in place when in fact they're not.

*runs off to buy pallets of ammo*

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

So if ammo limits aren't written in law, what was the basis for this prosecution?

Don't confuse legal restrictions with conditions.

There are no restrictions in law, but there are conditions the Super/Chief Super can place on your license and the applicant can agree to with the paying of the license fee. One of those is an ammo allowance. You apply for say 1,000, get it or close to it, and the Super grants the license with that amount. You buy 1,001 and you are in breach of THAT conditions of your license.

Same with other conditions. A lad i know can only fire his semi auto outside the country (he applied for international comps). The law doesn't apply such a restriction, but the Chief Super made it a condition of his license which the applicant agreed to by paying the license fee.

crusier

Grizzly 45 wrote:

Utter cluster fuk from the word go. Apparently, this all started with a CAB raid, RE his late fathers business dealings, and it was CAB officers that discovered the loaded.22 behind the picture..Do CAB officers have authority to handle firearms or take them as evidence??

What a stupid question

solarwinds

Could the expert please enlighten the uneducated then ?
I for one would like to know.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

I can see AGS now:

Cut his to 100

Or "well if you would like a sideways promotion to the outer Skelligs after the Star wars season is over...Leave well enough alone in Grizzlies case. As I doubt the ACC and current CS would like to be back in Limerick in the witness box for another hour under cross-examination.And then undertaking a DC tour of Ireland in other such cases.;)

Grizzly 45

crusier wrote: »

What a stupid question

Why?? Care to elaborate??

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Don't confuse legal restrictions with conditions.

Same with other conditions. A lad i know can only fire his semi-auto outside the country (he applied for international comps). The law doesn't apply such a restriction, but the Chief Super made it a condition of his license which the applicant agreed to by paying the license fee.

Slightly OT
If he wanted to, he could also get that reviewed as a vexatious condition, in so much as there are now local competitions for SA's as well and he is hampered from partaking in those by this condition. Conditions cant be so extreme either to make life difficult for the holder either.[IE security on the level of a moat with sharks with head-mounted lazers]

Half-cocked

Heard a story a while back about where the 100 round limit that used to be the norm came from. Apparently 100 rounds was what the well heeled game shooter in time gone by would bring along on a days driven shoot - it was what fitted into his natty leather ammo bag that his stuffer would carry for him. And so the PTB adopted it as the standard ammo limit. Sounds a bizarre enough reason to actually be true;)

Gravelly

Half-cocked wrote: »

Heard a story a while back about where the 100 round limit that used to be the norm came from. Apparently 100 rounds was what the well heeled game shooter in time gone by would bring along on a days driven shoot - it was what fitted into his natty leather ammo bag that his stuffer would carry for him. And so the PTB adopted it as the standard ammo limit. Sounds a bizarre enough reason to actually be true;)

When I applied for my first shotgun I put down that I wanted 1,000 rounds. I was granted 750. For my second shotgun, I put down that I wanted 750 rounds (assuming that this was the number of rounds they liked) and was granted 1,000......

Grizzly 45

Apprently the EU norm for countries that have ammo limits is 500 per gun.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Apprently the EU norm for countries that have ammo limits is 500 per gun.

If thats the case, we aren't doing too badly.

BattleCorp

gunny123 wrote: »

If thats the case, we aren't doing too badly.

Or a lot worse than those that have no ammo limits.

Nekarsulm

I had a limit of 100 on my shotgun cert, going back 30 years to my pre leaving cert days.
Asked for it to be upped last year, cause I started a bit if clay shooting.

Asked for 750.

Garda who deals with such things rang me to quiz me. Told them the reason.
"So you shoot clays at a club then?"
Yes, says I.

"Right so, photo your club membership card and leave it in the station addressed to me, and I will consider it"

Before I got leaving it in, a new licence arrived in the post with a 600 cartridge limit.

It'd be hard to know how their head works sometimes.

BattleCorp

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I had a limit of 100 on my shotgun cert, going back 30 years to my pre leaving cert days.
Asked for it to be upped last year, cause I started a bit if clay shooting.

Asked for 750.

Garda who deals with such things rang me to quiz me. Told them the reason.
"So you shoot clays at a club then?"
Yes, says I.

"Right so, photo your club membership card and leave it in the station addressed to me, and I will consider it"

Before I got leaving it in, a new licence arrived in the post with a 600 cartridge limit.

It'd be hard to know how their head works sometimes.

The guard said that he himself would consider it? Strange seeing as it isn't the Guard who issues the licence. He was on a bit of a power trip methinks.

meathstevie

gunny123 wrote: »

I wonder was the court case itself a punishment ? You know "we know we won't get a conviction, but we can have the unpleasant prospect of a court case hanging over you for a few years".

If that would be the case that's a state of affairs called abuse of process and potentially very costly.

meathstevie

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I had a limit of 100 on my shotgun cert, going back 30 years to my pre leaving cert days.
Asked for it to be upped last year, cause I started a bit if clay shooting.

Asked for 750.

Garda who deals with such things rang me to quiz me. Told them the reason.
"So you shoot clays at a club then?"
Yes, says I.

"Right so, photo your club membership card and leave it in the station addressed to me, and I will consider it"

Before I got leaving it in, a new licence arrived in the post with a 600 cartridge limit.

It'd be hard to know how their head works sometimes.

That's an easy one. He just wanted some documentation on record to justify the increase. 500 or 750 would have made more sense. Two slabs and four boxes is a bit of an odd quantity.

Nekarsulm

meathstevie wrote: »

That's an easy one. He just wanted some documentation on record to justify the increase. 500 or 750 would have made more sense. Two slabs and four boxes is a bit of an odd quantity.

They might have waited until I actually sent it in then !

Sparks

scwazrh wrote: »

How is it possible to have 9000 rounds on a single license?The commissioners guidelines is 750-1000 for target shooting. What purpose would be suitable to allow 9 times the average ?

The commissioner, whatever their other merits and virtues, is not an expert on target shooting. The Gardai have very, very, very few members who would be and most of those are experts due to their hobbies, not their profession, and their input was not what was used when setting the recommendations.

For example, for air rifle, you buy pellets in tins of 500. If you're seriously doing target shooting with air rifle, you'll get through that in a moderately heavy weekend. We've done training sessions where you'd shoot twice that many in one session (granted, it takes several hours). And you wouldn't buy H&N today and RWS tomorrow and random brand X the next day; you start off just getting one brand after testing a few; and then you'd buy one batch after testing a few of those and then you'd start going to the factory, testing a few dozen batches and then buying one.

By the time you're batch testing at home, you're buying 5000 pellets at a time because if you buy more than one tin from one batch, you're basically buying a sleeve (otherwise you get mixed batches) and that's ten tins. By the time you get to the factory, many brands have a minimum purchase of about 10k and you're usually getting 20k-30k if not more (especially for air, as lead's cheap compared to rounds). Same applies to air pistol, smallbore rifle and smallbore pistol.

Maybe for clays 1000 rounds is reasonable for a club shooter, I wouldn't know; but part of me doubts that the ICPSA's ISSF team would find it workable.

TL;DR - it's not 9 times the actual average, the figure in the guidelines is, not to put too fine a point on it, wrong. It's far too low for serious target shooting and impractically low for all but the most casual target shooting.

Grizzly 45

Just to give you an idea on what a sponsored pro shooting for a gun manufacturer will leave in spent brass in each separate category/ calibre on the floor after practice for a season. About 80/100 thousand rounds [and a new gun, please.]Even they say without sponsorship on the ammo front, it is impossible to compete in the top notch.

Semi-pro non sponsored with any sort of a chance will be burning about half that if you can afford it.

Hopefuls about a quarter, and amateurs around 5 thousand a season.

It's one reason one of our most promising female clay shooters quit and pulled out of the Olympics a few years ago. Cost of ammo, and no sponsorship on the ammo front.So having a thousand rounds in serious practice for clays or pistol in the big picture is nothing much at all. As Sparks pointed out with his airgun pellets, the exact same applies to, and even more so live ammo. Batch testing becomes deriguer if you are seriously competitive.

Fattybojangles

Found Guilty today of attempting to pervert the course of justice and not guilty of conspiring to kidnap.

hiddenmongoose

Already covered, nevermind