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All things relating to Jordan Peterson
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WhiteMemento9 wrote: »I'm not looking for great leaders. I am looking for people to wake the **** up.
Wake up and do what exactly?
Western society is going through a messed up period. All the constraints of the past (Religion, marriage, social constraints, sexuality, etc) are being removed and replaced with the "promise" of something better. But most people can feel that it's an empty promise and they're stuck in limbo. The traditional places to find security and inspiration are disappearing. Political scandals, corruption and irresponsibility is rife across the board. Most people don't really trust the law to be impartial or effective anymore, and there's no real movement to fix it. The Church is essentially gone, and replaced with nothing. So, people are adrift.You talk about happiness quite a bit in that post. You see in people around you a lack of that which I feel corresponds to people, not really understanding how to turn themselves on as people. That sounds quite smug but it isn't it is just an observation on people who are doing all the 'right' things yet are miserable as hell underneath. Eh, you know all that crap you are told will make you happy . . . The world needs to change through people starting to realize some truths and changing the kind of people we elect in all areas and not just one great leader as all men have their own failings and fallibilities.
I find most people aren't happy with their lives... The state of their lives, and where they expect to be in twenty years time. As I said above, everything is changing and there is no security anymore. Without that assumption that there is a clear line to regular living, people become anxious, and anxious people find fear quite quickly.
Happiness is important for a society. Without that happiness, and stability, people seek more radical answers, and the world is full of con-artists. [Or they blindly accept "official" or "institutional" research/statistics without checking their validity. Doesn't help that so many of our "trusted" organisations are biased or sponsored by private concerns]I'm not sure that I agree with the comments about selfishness.
Westerners like to believe in individuality and take pride in how our society promotes the individual. Individuality leads to being selfish otherwise how do you create a self separate from the needs of the community (although community is essentially dead in western culture. so perhaps society is a better word).
Virtually all the media and advertisements going around are all about "Me! Me! Me!" That constant bombardment to the senses about providing to the individual is going to have an effect. Coupled with the fear and insecurity, it encourages a bunker mentality.I posted this elsewhere recently and I stole it from Hitchens who stole it from Socrates so it isn't really any insight from myself.
You agreed with it, so therefore its yours.
I don't know that we all have it but I have it and Socrates believed we all have it. It is something like an internal witness that when we don't do something that we fully believe in we know it as a person. We can ignore it but we are aware. It might bubble in our subconscious but we understand on some level that we are either not being true to ourselves or doing the wrong thing.
And your internal witness is developed through social conditioning, education, your own unique perception of events, and experience. We have been told for a very long time that we are thinking beings, and that pure instinct is bad. Society reinforces this by teaching us the norms through which to see good/evil. Right/Wrong.
The problem though is that Right/Wrong are no longer the same thing as it was 30 years ago. Take the Transgender movement towards children, for example. 30 years ago, there would have been no question as to whether this should be allowed. It would have been shut down immediately, and the proponents sent off to a health center. Today? While there are many people against it, they're powerless to prevent it, because all causes have greater importance than what people actually want. The minority beliefs are greater.
And the "witness" recognises all of these things, and adapts.The world we have created though makes it very hard for people to live in this world and listen to that voice. That eventually damages people though, bitterness etc flows out to other people and you can see if you are alive enough that they aren't really home. I think Hitchens gave the example of saying something clever to someone to get a laugh that you don't truly believe, an inner voice tells you, that was funny but it wasn't something you should have said. We have that same feeling that grates at people going against themselves in so many areas of life now that its destroys them.
The greatest moment in my life was when I realised that I could say anything I wanted to someone and that I shouldn't feel any burden of guilt for doing so. I'm serious. Oh, I don't do it all the time, because it's dangerous... but the sense of freedom, knowing the option is there is incredible.
Most people I know don't have that freedom. They're afraid of the consequences in being honest, because society has developed to become a rather superficial thing where everyone's 'feelings' matter. It's even gotten to the point where saying you're against something (voicing your opinion) will get you labeled as a "phobe" or "ist".
I recently was in a discussion with friends and their friends about seeing gay people kissing, or making out in public. I really have no issues with gay people, but we weren't talking about the normal behavior of people in public. Instead, it was the case of a male couple, kissing passionately in the main street of the town, with their hands moving everywhere, with plenty of grinding going on. I wouldn't want to see a male/female doing that in the street either. It's not the place for it. And when i said as much, I was called homophobic. Simply because I said they shouldn't be doing it in public. I've no issue with them doing it in a nightclub, or private area, but that didn't matter. After the group broke up, I received messages from most of the others, thanking me for being honest, and that they wished they could have said the same... but were afraid they would be called the same. Their reputation would suffer. A very real worry in a small town.
There is a movement in western society to place the freedoms of minority groups over the beliefs of the majority. That we must provide complete freedom to everyone and everything... and to suggest otherwise is a black/white statement of ism.
This is why western society is failing, and people are so unhappy. Their own freedom to speak out against so much change is being taken away from them. In many ways, western society is starting to look a lot like Chinese society. Not a fear of the government but fear of social condemnation against what's officially accepted as being "true and good".0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Wake up and do what exactly?
Western society is going through a messed up period. All the constraints of the past (Religion, marriage, social constraints, sexuality, etc) are being removed and replaced with the "promise" of something better. But most people can feel that it's an empty promise and they're stuck in limbo. The traditional places to find security and inspiration are disappearing. Political scandals, corruption and irresponsibility is rife across the board. Most people don't really trust the law to be impartial or effective anymore, and there's no real movement to fix it. The Church is essentially gone, and replaced with nothing. So, people are adrift.
Wake up for a start and be alive. Actually embrace the here and now and live. Much of what I mean is talked about in that Harris video I posted where people never truly connect with the present moment and end up living life in the future or the past. The movement to fix it will only happen when enough people are awake to see a change is needed. At the moment there is an acceptance that things are this way and it is the best we can achieve. That needs to change. People can't look at the world and see what we are doing is crazy and we are doing a terrible job of caring for people in the world. They can't do that because they are so consumed with their own lives in this age of ME. Trying to find happiness in all the wrong places, sleeping walking through life.
I could rant here about working hours, trend lines in productions and wages and how it all makes no sense until you follow the money and what is happening but I know reading your posts you already know all this.Deleted User wrote: »I find most people aren't happy with their lives... The state of their lives, and where they expect to be in twenty years time. As I said above, everything is changing and there is no security anymore. Without that assumption that there is a clear line to regular living, people become anxious, and anxious people find fear quite quickly.
Happiness is important for a society. Without that happiness, and stability, people seek more radical answers, and the world is full of con-artists. [Or they blindly accept "official" or "institutional" research/statistics without checking their validity. Doesn't help that so many of our "trusted" organisations are biased or sponsored by private concerns]
I see this everywhere. People doing all the 'right' things that we proport as being important but when you dig into people it is a ****ing shambles.Deleted User wrote: »Westerners like to believe in individuality and take pride in how our society promotes the individual. Individuality leads to being selfish otherwise how do you create a self separate from the needs of the community (although community is essentially dead in western culture. so perhaps society is a better word).
Virtually all the media and advertisements going around are all about "Me! Me! Me!" That constant bombardment to the senses about providing to the individual is going to have an effect. Coupled with the fear and insecurity, it encourages a bunker mentality.
Agree with it all but if people could see the joy that it brings to care about the collective. To actually see pain and suffering and not think of it as some logical exercise towards their brain of computing, "oh that is sad". Instead let the pain in and show genuine compassion and understanding it relates to all the other feelings in life you don't experience because you dull the pain, you dull everything to live like that. Being a good person is its own reward.Deleted User wrote: »You agreed with it, so therefore its yours.
And your internal witness is developed through social conditioning, education, your own unique perception of events, and experience. We have been told for a very long time that we are thinking beings, and that pure instinct is bad. Society reinforces this by teaching us the norms through which to see good/evil. Right/Wrong.
The problem though is that Right/Wrong are no longer the same thing as it was 30 years ago. Take the Transgender movement towards children, for example. 30 years ago, there would have been no question as to whether this should be allowed. It would have been shut down immediately, and the proponents sent off to a health center. Today? While there are many people against it, they're powerless to prevent it, because all causes have greater importance than what people actually want. The minority beliefs are greater.
And the "witness" recognises all of these things, and adapts.
This gets quite weird and messy from a personal perspective. I understand the points you are making towards a lack of free will. I agree but I also think there is something deeper in that inner voice. I know because I have experienced it at points in my life when it doesn't make sense for it to have formed so truly and I couldn't connect with it on the surface but subconiously it was driving me to act out in ways because I can see with complete clarity I was doing much of the stuff that I thought was the right direction but it wasn't. I couldn't tell that on the surface but something deep within always knew from a very early age.Deleted User wrote: »The greatest moment in my life was when I realised that I could say anything I wanted to someone and that I shouldn't feel any burden of guilt for doing so. I'm serious. Oh, I don't do it all the time, because it's dangerous... but the sense of freedom, knowing the option is there is incredible.
Most people I know don't have that freedom. They're afraid of the consequences in being honest, because society has developed to become a rather superficial thing where everyone's 'feelings' matter. It's even gotten to the point where saying you're against something (voicing your opinion) will get you labeled as a "phobe" or "ist".
I recently was in a discussion with friends and their friends about seeing gay people kissing, or making out in public. I really have no issues with gay people, but we weren't talking about the normal behavior of people in public. Instead, it was the case of a male couple, kissing passionately in the main street of the town, with their hands moving everywhere, with plenty of grinding going on. I wouldn't want to see a male/female doing that in the street either. It's not the place for it. And when i said as much, I was called homophobic. Simply because I said they shouldn't be doing it in public. I've no issue with them doing it in a nightclub, or private area, but that didn't matter. After the group broke up, I received messages from most of the others, thanking me for being honest, and that they wished they could have said the same... but were afraid they would be called the same. Their reputation would suffer. A very real worry in a small town.
There is a movement in western society to place the freedoms of minority groups over the beliefs of the majority. That we must provide complete freedom to everyone and everything... and to suggest otherwise is a black/white statement of ism.
This is why western society is failing, and people are so unhappy. Their own freedom to speak out against so much change is being taken away from them. In many ways, western society is starting to look a lot like Chinese society. Not a fear of the government but fear of social condemnation against what's officially accepted as being "true and good".
You are on shaky ground with me here. I don't believe people should be able to just say what they want. I agree the ability to do so is incredibly freeing for you personally but it should always come with a caveat of caring and understanding of the people around you are just trying to get through this life thing. Many with little understanding that you have as a person. Jim Carey recently came to this realisation and he showed up at some fashion event deriding the whole thing as one of the most vacuous things we are doing on planet earth. He may be right but he comes at things from what I can see of having lived in a money bubble with little understanding of how hard and difficult life is for many people. He doesn't know those people he is talking to. He doesn't know their struggle. What gives him the right to judge without that knowledge.0 -
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The actual content of what you said is an interesting one about two people getting heavy with each other on the street and been rattling in the head. On one side I think we need some sort of social decorum to interact with each other on a daily basis. On another side, I think is that just my nature expunging from me that has been shaped by my life in rather a conservative way toward people showing affection. What is so wrong with two people feeling horny for each other and showing it and why do I even think of that in a negative way when it is displayed in public.
It gets weirder again if we break down the social walls a little further. Let's say we were OK with two people having sex in a park in full public view. Would it also then be OK to watch those two people. Would you watch?
Won't somebody think of the children.0 -
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WhiteMemento9 wrote: »The actual content of what you said is an interesting one about two people getting heavy with each other on the street and been rattling in the head. On one side I think we need some sort of social decorum to interact with each other on a daily basis. On another side, I think is that just my nature expunging from me that has been shaped by my life in rather a conservative way toward people showing affection. What is so wrong with two people feeling horny for each other and showing it and why do I even think of that in a negative way when it is displayed in public.
It gets weirder again if we break down the social walls a little further. Let's say we were OK with two people having sex in a park in full public view. Would it also then be OK to watch those two people. Would you watch?
Won't somebody think of the children.
Because for society to function there needs to be limits on the acceptable behavior of it's members. Generalised measures of acceptance for types of behavior because without those limits, it gives encouragement to anarchy, and civil unrest.
We don't live in a society of limited views... and allowing complete freedom to people to behave whatever way they wish will guarantee conflict between those who feel strongly enough about it. Even for those who don't feel strongly enough to act out, it creates resentment that their values are not being taken into consideration.
It also begs the question, that if certain forms of behavior are allowed to become available, why are others not allowed? Why can't I, with my religious or masochistic tendencies, whip myself to bloody shreds in the park? Why is two people screwing more agreeable than my right to express myself through self-mutilation? And how are my belief that self-mutilation is wrong when you consider transgender operations to be acceptable?
Society needs to have limits. It's a Pandora's box waiting to be opened, and honestly, I feel the lid is being opened as we speak, with no consideration to how it will affect society in the near future.
Don't get me wrong. I am very open-minded on most issues. I just believe that people should do these things in the privacy of their own home, and not push their views/behavior on to others who have no wish to observe them.0 -
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WhiteMemento9 wrote: »Wake up for a start and be alive. Actually embrace the here and now and live. Much of what I mean is talked about in that Harris video I posted where people never truly connect with the present moment and end up living life in the future or the past. The movement to fix it will only happen when enough people are awake to see a change is needed. At the moment there is an acceptance that things are this way and it is the best we can achieve. That needs to change. People can't look at the world and see what we are doing is crazy and we are doing a terrible job of caring for people in the world. They can't do that because they are so consumed with their own lives in this age of ME. Trying to find happiness in all the wrong places, sleeping walking through life.
Well.. I actually recommend drugs, and living outside of your home country for at least 2-3 years. See a bit of other cultures completely different from your own. Take a breather. Relax, and reappraise what is important in your life.
And then commit yourself to seeking what you want. No hedging. No pissing about. No losing your focus because of other peoples needs. Be selfish. Look to your needs and those you care about, and ignore the rest.
But.. that's not going to happen.Agree with it all but if people could see the joy that it brings to care about the collective. To actually see pain and suffering and not think of it as some logical exercise towards their brain of computing, "oh that is sad". Instead let the pain in and show genuine compassion and understanding it relates to all the other feelings in life you don't experience because you dull the pain, you dull everything to live like that. Being a good person is its own reward.
Um,.. nah. I'm not going down this road with you because it's a thread in itself.You are on shaky ground with me here. I don't believe people should be able to just say what they want. I agree the ability to do so is incredibly freeing for you personally but it should always come with a caveat of caring and understanding of the people around you are just trying to get through this life thing. Many with little understanding that you have as a person. Jim Carey recently came to this realisation and he showed up at some fashion event deriding the whole thing as one of the most vacuous things we are doing on planet earth. He may be right but he comes at things from what I can see of having lived in a money bubble with little understanding of how hard and difficult life is for many people. He doesn't know those people he is talking to. He doesn't know their struggle. What gives him the right to judge without that knowledge.
Consequences... It comes down to recognising that there are consequences to your actions, and that you bear responsibility for those actions. Oh, sure, you cannot assume complete responsibility since you have zero control over what the other person thinks or how the respond, but you can factor these things into the decision making process, and make a choice. And bear the responsibility for that choice.
I did a full year of 100% honesty. I lost the vast majority of friends I had at the time, and gained a minority of people who appreciated the honesty. A very slim number of people accepting it.... because people don't really want honesty from others. The key is to decide when being honest benefits you the most, and just keep quiet the remainder of the time.
As for judging others, everyone does it. Knowledge isn't a requirement. You walk down the street, any person you look at for more than 3 seconds, you've made some kind of judgment about them. Their appearance, their attitude, who they are with, etc. It's human nature to judge those around us, and pretending that's not so, is pointless. The word is full of ignorant people... because all of us are ignorant at different points in our lives. I certainly have been... and I've seen the same in others.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Well.. I actually recommend drugs, and living outside of your home country for at least 2-3 years. See a bit of other cultures completely different from your own. Take a breather. Relax, and reappraise what is important in your life.
And then commit yourself to seeking what you want. No hedging. No pissing about. No losing your focus because of other peoples needs. Be selfish. Look to your needs and those you care about, and ignore the rest.
But.. that's not going to happen.
I agree that both things are useful tools
People are so lost in this world though with the pressure of work, need to survive etc it becomes a rat race where it is hard to gain traction out of that bubble and that life consumes you on a path to places you maybe think you want but from what I have experienced and seen, those roads don't lead anywhere good.
I'm not with you on the being selfish thing. I think if we all cared a little more we could cause change. One of the main problems with the world is that the good people stay quiet far too often and it is the assholes who end up running the show which is why so many things are ****ed up. Someone once said all it takes for bad people to do bad things is for good people to stand by and say nothing. I understand the feeling of helplessness but that inner voice gnaws quite badly at me as a person when I put the head down and work towards my own selfish goalsDeleted User wrote: »Consequences... It comes down to recognising that there are consequences to your actions, and that you bear responsibility for those actions. Oh, sure, you cannot assume complete responsibility since you have zero control over what the other person thinks or how the respond, but you can factor these things into the decision making process, and make a choice. And bear the responsibility for that choice.
I did a full year of 100% honesty. I lost the vast majority of friends I had at the time, and gained a minority of people who appreciated the honesty. A very slim number of people accepting it.... because people don't really want honesty from others. The key is to decide when being honest benefits you the most, and just keep quiet the remainder of the time.
As for judging others, everyone does it. Knowledge isn't a requirement. You walk down the street, any person you look at for more than 3 seconds, you've made some kind of judgment about them. Their appearance, their attitude, who they are with, etc. It's human nature to judge those around us, and pretending that's not so, is pointless. The word is full of ignorant people... because all of us are ignorant at different points in our lives. I certainly have been... and I've seen the same in others.
Those would align pretty strongly with my views apart from the judging thing. I only ever judge people these days if I can't find a moral compass in them and they seem like not good people. I can usually dig enough to find reasons for that lack of empathy but it isn't always forgivable.
I will think, oh that person looks cool in those clothes etc but those are just superficial things which mean very little to me other than what I am seeing with my eyes. They are just signal to my brain that is shaped by the world but I understand in my brain I have no idea about that person. What you see with your eyes is very little in this world.0 -
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