dd972 wrote: » Well said, JP rants on about 'you should be doing this/that/the other' in his slightly whiney voice which I can listen to less and less with each listen. He's got nothing to say about the money and why neoliberal capitalism has been a disaster creating loads of disenfranchised young men.
Raging_Ninja wrote: » Neoliberal economics has created the single most comfortable mode of being for the most amount of people regardless of skill, heritage or class in the history of the world. If it's been a disaster, if it's created "disenfranchised young men", it's because it's removed the sheer struggle and torture that was common in life up to as little as a hundred years ago or ateast in the post-WW2 era. Anyways, in his psychology lectures he actually does have a bit to say about income inequality and the problems that creates.
Deleted User wrote: » {I probably shouldn't have written all this but I'm rather drunk right now. :pac:}
Raging_Ninja wrote: Neoliberal economics has created the single most comfortable mode of being for the most amount of people regardless of skill, heritage or class in the history of the world.
WhiteMemento9 wrote: » It has created a class of people that are struggling in completely new ways.
Raging_Ninja wrote: » There was always a class of people that struggled. But nobody is starving to death any more if they don't want to.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » I think Silverharp's point was that Peterson antagonises left wingers. He seems very much right wing to me so if "triggering lefties" is someone's metric for measuring insight then I wouldn't afford that opinion much credibility.
Deleted User wrote: » Suffice to say that Peterson talks about the real world like he would a social experiment assigned to a class. He tends to miss out on the pain, passion, deceit, etc that is involved with living. But then, so too do his opponents. Peterson is perhaps better at this though, but I find him overly clinical at times.
WhiteMemento9 wrote: » btw klaz, if you haven't seen it I think you would really enjoy 'The Act of Killing'. It is a harrowing watch and I am not generally a fan of visiting something so dark too often as it weighs heavily on me as a person but it is an immensely rewarding watch in the understanding stakes.
Wanderer78 wrote: » ive never heard of this 'the act of killing', can you explain? sorry im under a bit of pressure here, dont have the time to google. thank you
silverharp wrote: » leaving aside his politics, his advice to young people is exactly what parents / dads should be passing on to their kids. Why this would trigger some people so much is strange from my point of view unless they are the stereotypical feminist etc. with the daddy issues we here about.
Wanderer78 wrote: » you may need to do some more research on this, theres still many people starving on this planet, including some in developed countries
WhiteMemento9 wrote: » Nobody in the world is starving to death if they don't want to?
Raging_Ninja wrote: » Gonna have to throw me a link or two there for starvation in developed countries. Well, not worldwide but I thought I was referring to Ireland. Not a citizen of the world yet.
WhiteMemento9 wrote: » I'm not looking for great leaders. I am looking for people to wake the **** up.
You talk about happiness quite a bit in that post. You see in people around you a lack of that which I feel corresponds to people, not really understanding how to turn themselves on as people. That sounds quite smug but it isn't it is just an observation on people who are doing all the 'right' things yet are miserable as hell underneath. Eh, you know all that crap you are told will make you happy . . . The world needs to change through people starting to realize some truths and changing the kind of people we elect in all areas and not just one great leader as all men have their own failings and fallibilities.
I'm not sure that I agree with the comments about selfishness.
I posted this elsewhere recently and I stole it from Hitchens who stole it from Socrates so it isn't really any insight from myself.
I don't know that we all have it but I have it and Socrates believed we all have it. It is something like an internal witness that when we don't do something that we fully believe in we know it as a person. We can ignore it but we are aware. It might bubble in our subconscious but we understand on some level that we are either not being true to ourselves or doing the wrong thing.
The world we have created though makes it very hard for people to live in this world and listen to that voice. That eventually damages people though, bitterness etc flows out to other people and you can see if you are alive enough that they aren't really home. I think Hitchens gave the example of saying something clever to someone to get a laugh that you don't truly believe, an inner voice tells you, that was funny but it wasn't something you should have said. We have that same feeling that grates at people going against themselves in so many areas of life now that its destroys them.
Raging_Ninja wrote: » Gonna have to throw me a link or two there for starvation in developed countries.
Deleted User wrote: » Wake up and do what exactly? Western society is going through a messed up period. All the constraints of the past (Religion, marriage, social constraints, sexuality, etc) are being removed and replaced with the "promise" of something better. But most people can feel that it's an empty promise and they're stuck in limbo. The traditional places to find security and inspiration are disappearing. Political scandals, corruption and irresponsibility is rife across the board. Most people don't really trust the law to be impartial or effective anymore, and there's no real movement to fix it. The Church is essentially gone, and replaced with nothing. So, people are adrift.
Deleted User wrote: » I find most people aren't happy with their lives... The state of their lives, and where they expect to be in twenty years time. As I said above, everything is changing and there is no security anymore. Without that assumption that there is a clear line to regular living, people become anxious, and anxious people find fear quite quickly. Happiness is important for a society. Without that happiness, and stability, people seek more radical answers, and the world is full of con-artists. [Or they blindly accept "official" or "institutional" research/statistics without checking their validity. Doesn't help that so many of our "trusted" organisations are biased or sponsored by private concerns]
Deleted User wrote: » Westerners like to believe in individuality and take pride in how our society promotes the individual. Individuality leads to being selfish otherwise how do you create a self separate from the needs of the community (although community is essentially dead in western culture. so perhaps society is a better word). Virtually all the media and advertisements going around are all about "Me! Me! Me!" That constant bombardment to the senses about providing to the individual is going to have an effect. Coupled with the fear and insecurity, it encourages a bunker mentality.
Deleted User wrote: » You agreed with it, so therefore its yours. And your internal witness is developed through social conditioning, education, your own unique perception of events, and experience. We have been told for a very long time that we are thinking beings, and that pure instinct is bad. Society reinforces this by teaching us the norms through which to see good/evil. Right/Wrong. The problem though is that Right/Wrong are no longer the same thing as it was 30 years ago. Take the Transgender movement towards children, for example. 30 years ago, there would have been no question as to whether this should be allowed. It would have been shut down immediately, and the proponents sent off to a health center. Today? While there are many people against it, they're powerless to prevent it, because all causes have greater importance than what people actually want. The minority beliefs are greater. And the "witness" recognises all of these things, and adapts.
Deleted User wrote: » The greatest moment in my life was when I realised that I could say anything I wanted to someone and that I shouldn't feel any burden of guilt for doing so. I'm serious. Oh, I don't do it all the time, because it's dangerous... but the sense of freedom, knowing the option is there is incredible. Most people I know don't have that freedom. They're afraid of the consequences in being honest, because society has developed to become a rather superficial thing where everyone's 'feelings' matter. It's even gotten to the point where saying you're against something (voicing your opinion) will get you labeled as a "phobe" or "ist". I recently was in a discussion with friends and their friends about seeing gay people kissing, or making out in public. I really have no issues with gay people, but we weren't talking about the normal behavior of people in public. Instead, it was the case of a male couple, kissing passionately in the main street of the town, with their hands moving everywhere, with plenty of grinding going on. I wouldn't want to see a male/female doing that in the street either. It's not the place for it. And when i said as much, I was called homophobic. Simply because I said they shouldn't be doing it in public. I've no issue with them doing it in a nightclub, or private area, but that didn't matter. After the group broke up, I received messages from most of the others, thanking me for being honest, and that they wished they could have said the same... but were afraid they would be called the same. Their reputation would suffer. A very real worry in a small town. There is a movement in western society to place the freedoms of minority groups over the beliefs of the majority. That we must provide complete freedom to everyone and everything... and to suggest otherwise is a black/white statement of ism. This is why western society is failing, and people are so unhappy. Their own freedom to speak out against so much change is being taken away from them. In many ways, western society is starting to look a lot like Chinese society. Not a fear of the government but fear of social condemnation against what's officially accepted as being "true and good".
Deleted User wrote: » Wake up and do what exactly? Western society is going through a messed up period. All the constraints of the past (Religion, marriage, social constraints, sexuality, etc) are being removed and replaced with the "promise" of something better. But most people can feel that it's an empty promise and they're stuck in limbo. The traditional places to find security and inspiration are disappearing. Political scandals, corruption and irresponsibility is rife across the board. Most people don't really trust the law to be impartial or effective anymore, and there's no real movement to fix it. The Church is essentially gone, and replaced with nothing. So, people are adrift. I find most people aren't happy with their lives... The state of their lives, and where they expect to be in twenty years time. As I said above, everything is changing and there is no security anymore. Without that assumption that there is a clear line to regular living, people become anxious, and anxious people find fear quite quickly. Happiness is important for a society. Without that happiness, and stability, people seek more radical answers, and the world is full of con-artists. [Or they blindly accept "official" or "institutional" research/statistics without checking their validity. Doesn't help that so many of our "trusted" organisations are biased or sponsored by private concerns.
Deleted User wrote: » And your internal witness is developed through social conditioning, education, your own unique perception of events, and experience. We have been told for a very long time that we are thinking beings, and that pure instinct is bad. Society reinforces this by teaching us the norms through which to see good/evil. Right/Wrong. The problem though is that Right/Wrong are no longer the same thing as it was 30 years ago. Take the Transgender movement towards children, for example. 30 years ago, there would have been no question as to whether this should be allowed. It would have been shut down immediately, and the proponents sent off to a health center. Today? While there are many people against it, they're powerless to prevent it, because all causes have greater importance than what people actually want. The minority beliefs are greater. And the "witness" recognises all of these things, and adapts. The greatest moment in my life was when I realised that I could say anything I wanted to someone and that I shouldn't feel any burden of guilt for doing so. I'm serious. Oh, I don't do it all the time, because it's dangerous... but the sense of freedom, knowing the option is there is incredible. Most people I know don't have that freedom. They're afraid of the consequences in being honest, because society has developed to become a rather superficial thing where everyone's 'feelings' matter. It's even gotten to the point where saying you're against something (voicing your opinion) will get you labeled as a "phobe" or "ist". I recently was in a discussion with friends and their friends about seeing gay people kissing, or making out in public. I really have no issues with gay people, but we weren't talking about the normal behavior of people in public. Instead, it was the case of a male couple, kissing passionately in the main street of the town, with their hands moving everywhere, with plenty of grinding going on. I wouldn't want to see a male/female doing that in the street either. It's not the place for it. And when i said as much, I was called homophobic. Simply because I said they shouldn't be doing it in public. I've no issue with them doing it in a nightclub, or private area, but that didn't matter. After the group broke up, I received messages from most of the others, thanking me for being honest, and that they wished they could have said the same... but were afraid they would be called the same. Their reputation would suffer. A very real worry in a small town. There is a movement in western society to place the freedoms of minority groups over the beliefs of the majority. That we must provide complete freedom to everyone and everything... and to suggest otherwise is a black/white statement of ism. This is why western society is failing, and people are so unhappy. Their own freedom to speak out against so much change is being taken away from them. In many ways, western society is starting to look a lot like Chinese society. Not a fear of the government but fear of social condemnation against what's officially accepted as being "true and good".
ancapailldorcha wrote: » I'm inclined to see it as much more of a good thing than a bad thing. The caveat is that then erosion of traditional bodies of collectivism and the promotion of individual agency and liberty aren't inherently linked. The Catholic Church has largely been crippled by the child abuse scandal, the banks nearly crashed the economy only to be bailed out by the state, trade unions have had their snouts in the trough for some time now, MP's have had the recent expenses scandal and so on...
WhiteMemento9 wrote: » The actual content of what you said is an interesting one about two people getting heavy with each other on the street and been rattling in the head. On one side I think we need some sort of social decorum to interact with each other on a daily basis. On another side, I think is that just my nature expunging from me that has been shaped by my life in rather a conservative way toward people showing affection. What is so wrong with two people feeling horny for each other and showing it and why do I even think of that in a negative way when it is displayed in public. It gets weirder again if we break down the social walls a little further. Let's say we were OK with two people having sex in a park in full public view. Would it also then be OK to watch those two people. Would you watch? Won't somebody think of the children.
Pretty much. Membership of some of the bodies I mention above imply participation in a higher cause which can help one feel fulfilled and purposeful. A trade union employee might see themselves as the guardian of their members' rights and welfare against an avaricious and uncaring employer for example. All this has been replaced by consumer capitalism which amounts to little more than "Buy this thing and you'll be happy". Of course, there's always another thing and reality never meets expectation.
This is largely an online phenomenon, largely confined to certain sites and social media which is itself inherently anathema to the idea of civilised, mature debate. Most people, I've found don't subscribe to many "-isms" if any. If it transpired that, say a toy company had used a harmful variety of paint only a small few would argue for the state to nationalise it or to have a bonfire of toy and paint regulations. They'd just expect the firm to issue a recall and pay compensation where necessary. I think a certain few troublemakers are intent on pushing the idea that we're losing our free speech for their own personal gain. It's was Peterson's own stance against Bill C-16 which fuelled his rise to prominence. I don't think he was expecting this but now that he is in this position, it suits him to try and make as much hay out of this as possible. Ditto for various professional trolls among whom I would not count Peterson.
Deleted User wrote: » Originally, I would have agreed with you, but I don't see that many positive changes occuring. Oh, sure it is good that we have SSM, or that Gay people are not being arrested in the streets for being gay... but it seems to me that there is too much of a rush to tear down the boundaries of the past rules/expectations, and very little being provided to replace them. I'm one of those people who thrives on complete freedom.. but very few people I've met are the same as me. Most of those I know need the security of rules, regulations, social conventions, etc. They need to know where the walls are to avoid the sense of being lost.
Deleted User wrote: » This was largely an online phenomenon. I've seen a number of people here on boards say the same thing, and for the most part, I agree with you. For Ireland. But it is changing. The division between the Internet and our RLs is diminishing everyday. The ease of access to the internet through phones, tablets, etc is making the ideas there far more accessible to the general public, and with the loss of respect for traditional media, people are turning to the Net for opinions... I came back to Ireland last year (I'd been gone for mostly a decade with a few short holidays back), and have spent the time meeting old friends, old loves, relations, etc. Or travelling to places I knew from before both in Ireland and in Europe. And the range of conversations I've had has been rather broad, along with the conversations I've overheard in cafes, bars, etc. This "Internet Think" is here. It's being spoken about commonly, as is the feminist angle of things. The Gender wage gap, the need for gender diversity, Transgender rights, etc, these are all being talked about, and the opinions of online authors are being used to justify opinions... So, no, I don't think it's simply an online phenomenon anymore.
WhiteMemento9 wrote: » Wake up for a start and be alive. Actually embrace the here and now and live. Much of what I mean is talked about in that Harris video I posted where people never truly connect with the present moment and end up living life in the future or the past. The movement to fix it will only happen when enough people are awake to see a change is needed. At the moment there is an acceptance that things are this way and it is the best we can achieve. That needs to change. People can't look at the world and see what we are doing is crazy and we are doing a terrible job of caring for people in the world. They can't do that because they are so consumed with their own lives in this age of ME. Trying to find happiness in all the wrong places, sleeping walking through life.
Agree with it all but if people could see the joy that it brings to care about the collective. To actually see pain and suffering and not think of it as some logical exercise towards their brain of computing, "oh that is sad". Instead let the pain in and show genuine compassion and understanding it relates to all the other feelings in life you don't experience because you dull the pain, you dull everything to live like that. Being a good person is its own reward.
You are on shaky ground with me here. I don't believe people should be able to just say what they want. I agree the ability to do so is incredibly freeing for you personally but it should always come with a caveat of caring and understanding of the people around you are just trying to get through this life thing. Many with little understanding that you have as a person. Jim Carey recently came to this realisation and he showed up at some fashion event deriding the whole thing as one of the most vacuous things we are doing on planet earth. He may be right but he comes at things from what I can see of having lived in a money bubble with little understanding of how hard and difficult life is for many people. He doesn't know those people he is talking to. He doesn't know their struggle. What gives him the right to judge without that knowledge.
Deleted User wrote: » Well.. I actually recommend drugs, and living outside of your home country for at least 2-3 years. See a bit of other cultures completely different from your own. Take a breather. Relax, and reappraise what is important in your life. And then commit yourself to seeking what you want. No hedging. No pissing about. No losing your focus because of other peoples needs. Be selfish. Look to your needs and those you care about, and ignore the rest. But.. that's not going to happen.
Deleted User wrote: » Consequences... It comes down to recognising that there are consequences to your actions, and that you bear responsibility for those actions. Oh, sure, you cannot assume complete responsibility since you have zero control over what the other person thinks or how the respond, but you can factor these things into the decision making process, and make a choice. And bear the responsibility for that choice. I did a full year of 100% honesty. I lost the vast majority of friends I had at the time, and gained a minority of people who appreciated the honesty. A very slim number of people accepting it.... because people don't really want honesty from others. The key is to decide when being honest benefits you the most, and just keep quiet the remainder of the time. As for judging others, everyone does it. Knowledge isn't a requirement. You walk down the street, any person you look at for more than 3 seconds, you've made some kind of judgment about them. Their appearance, their attitude, who they are with, etc. It's human nature to judge those around us, and pretending that's not so, is pointless. The word is full of ignorant people... because all of us are ignorant at different points in our lives. I certainly have been... and I've seen the same in others.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » However, I've found that the polarisation effect of the internet and social media in particular rapidly dissipates when engaging most people in real life. People might be getting opinions from it but not with the same zeal as online bloggers, activists and the like.
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