Should Dublin Football be split?

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blanch152 wrote: »

Not really, if the emphasis, as it is in Kerry, is on development for the senior team, rather than mass participation, the average kid loses out.

The average kid loses out in Dublin because they have limited opportunity to play at the top level. This all changes if Dublin are split into 4 however, it would be a positive development.

grbear

Not dismissing their contribution at all, it's just that O'Rourkes comment got me thinking about how the new championship structure will change the balance of where people spend their money.

The Munster and Leinster championships will take a bigger share of the hurling pie while the qualifier/All-Ireland series will take a bigger slice of the football revenue.

Anyway, this doesn't really affect the topic in question so I'll stop going off on a tangent.

TrueGael

https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1010929293495623680

Skip to about 1:30 or so for the particularly harrowing scale of the inequality

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Powerhouse wrote: »

Presumably as a fraction of the overall revenue Dublin’s matches will account for less considering the increased volume of hurling matches. That seems a logical expectation. But I think O’Rourke’s point still stands - in fact I said something along those lines on this thread a few weeks ago but cannot locate it just now i.e. that Dublin were more than pulling their weight in Leinster in terms of funds generated.

When Westmeath played Laois in the 2004 Leinster Final (when Laois were defending champions for the first time since 1947, Westmeath were in a first final since 1949, and people were looking for ways to throw money away such was the supply of cash at that time) only 38,300 attended the Leinster Final, so Dublin’s contribution to the coffers should not be easily dismissed.

The plan from the head honchos in the GAA was to bankroll Dublin GAA and in return they would see revenue increase, sponsorship, tv deals and so on. That has worked but at the detriment of the overall strength of our games.

Your second paragraph is wrong. 2 small counties in Laois and Westmeath had an attendance of 56,000. The replay was less, today's attendance was 41,000. Crowds are falling!

blanch152

DONTMATTER wrote: »

What you mean was that my posts were completely ignored apart from a couple of comments that had the usual deflection.

An intrinsic part of Dublin's highly financed system is the identification and development of elite talent. You've been told this repeatedly.

No, it is a side-effect of their focus on kids.

As for your posts, they were repeatedly shown to be misinformed, badly calculated, and just plain wrong. You chose to ignore this and just point to the same tables again and again. You relied on a student who you described as a "highly qualified data analyst" which was laughable as well. You promised exposure on the Sunday Game tonight which just didn't happen. Your posts are one long joke.

Fann Linn

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The plan from the head honchos in the GAA was to bankroll Dublin GAA and in return they would see revenue increase, sponsorship, tv deals and so on. That has worked but at the detriment of the overall strength of our games.

Your second paragraph is wrong. 2 small counties in Laois and Westmeath had an attendance of 56,000. The replay was less, today's attendance was 41,000. Crowds are falling!

Hottest summer in years, world cup on tv. 41700 wasn't a bad attendance.

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Fann Linn wrote: »

But there was always only a top 6 or 7 with the odd outlier like Down or Armagh slipping through.

Pre funding Westmeath won the Leinster championship, Laois before that, Meath, Kildare and Offaly all won titles. All Ireland's were won by Tyrone, Armagh, Galway, Meath, the thing was wide open.
Yes there always has been the stronger teams that are always there like Dublin and Kerry but the 70's were gone, the 2 team competition was dead. Now we're going back to that.

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TrueGael wrote: »

https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1010929293495623680

Skip to about 1:30 or so for the particularly harrowing scale of the inequality

You can see why this hasn't been brought up in the media. The reaction from Dublin supporters is deranged. Discussing it is out of the question, they want to silence the issue.
The good news is that this topic is getting more coverage.

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blanch152 wrote: »

No, it is a side-effect of their focus on kids.

As for your posts, they were repeatedly shown to be misinformed, badly calculated, and just plain wrong. You chose to ignore this and just point to the same tables again and again. You relied on a student who you described as a "highly qualified data analyst" which was laughable as well. You promised exposure on the Sunday Game tonight which just didn't happen. Your posts are one long joke.

It's instringic to their plans!

I didn't rely on anyone, I've used my own tables, I can post them again if you want? I didn't promise anything, I said I'd contact them, no surprise that they didn't cover it but there's always more shows.

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Fann Linn wrote: »

Hottest summer in years, world cup on tv. 41700 wasn't a bad attendance.

It's a tiny attendance considering. What soccer games were on? A hot day usually draws a crowd, not the opposite.

TrueGael

https://youtu.be/Z8fVgRDrlfA?t=4159

Oh dearie me, I was told on here less than an hour ago that Dublin place no emphasis on their elite young players only to find out that a bunch of ex players Whelan, Sherlock, Goggins and a load more are involved

Oh dear

micks

DONTMATTER wrote: »

What you mean was that my posts were completely ignored apart from a couple of comments that had the usual deflection.

An intrinsic part of Dublin's highly financed system is the identification and development of elite talent. You've been told this repeatedly.

But you seem to be ignoring a lot also

for example this is great:

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Ok so I have everything ready basically. Just one other thing to rake over. It's the Dublin County Board accounts. I've copied some of it here:





Obviously we're dealing with serious money but what do you make of the figures? The figure at the end is particularly interesting. 2.7 million from the Strategic Review Committee in 2016 and 2.5 million from 2015.

So why not throw up similar for say - Mayo, Kerry and Tyrone?

Show their books instead of picking one line in Dublin's balance sheet?

Then have a look at say Kildare - Hawkfield how much funding did they get for that?

then look at the 3rd party funding for example Tralee IT for Kerry training?

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micks wrote: »

But you seem to be ignoring a lot also

for example this is great:




So why not throw up similar for say - Mayo, Kerry and Tyrone?

Show their books instead of picking one line in Dublin's balance sheet?

Then have a look at say Kildare - Hawkfield how much funding did they get for that?

then look at the 3rd party funding for example Tralee IT for Kerry training?

I was discussing Games Development funding, Dublin have got millions upon millions more than anyone else. Did you look at the video True Gael just posted. The underage system in Dublin is a hugely financed machine. It's led to 52 titles in the past 13 years.
I posted a table that showed what other counties received in Games Development funding.
County grounds or centres of excellence aren't included in any of this. If it was Dublin would be even further ahead!

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Also, no one said anything about this point for example:

Population Explosion

Population is an advantage Dublin have always had but, it's not something that would affect GAA policy or become much of an issue. Other counties have and had biggish populations and some have always had tiny populations. It's just the way things were. We have to go back to the Strategic Review Committee again to see how things changed.

One of the reasons that committee recommended splitting Dublin was because of population reasons. Here's what Christy Cooney, who chaired the sub committee that examined Dublin, had to say; "You must remember that there are 1.4 million people in the region and 2,000,000 or more will be there in 20 years time. There's no way one county board is going to manage that. We met all of the units in Dublin last year, as well as the county board. Improvements are necessary and that's not the fault of the board or clubs."

I'm not sure exactly where he was meaning by 'in the region' but we have to look at population figures closely again. Going on CSO figures, Dublin's population will continue to increase at a high rate.





It could increase by up to nearly 300,000 people by 2031. That's more than the population of most counties. Dublin will have a population of over 2 million in the near future. A high percentage of the total population on this island. From a GAA point of view, how is this sustainable? We've seen concerns raised at the beginning of this century and they will continue to grow. Can anyone seriously see Dublin remaining as they are with nearly 1/4 of the countries population?

micks

DONTMATTER wrote: »

I was discussing Games Development funding, Dublin have got millions upon millions more than anyone else. Did you look at the video True Gael just posted. The underage system in Dublin is a hugely financed machine. It's led to 52 titles in the past 13 years.
I posted a table that showed what other counties received in Games Development funding.
County grounds or centres of excellence aren't included in any of this. If it was Dublin would be even further ahead!

Haha.

And that’s why you won’t be taken seriously

Look at the whole picture

Games development funding is based on members. Look at the whole picture

micks

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Also, no one said anything about this point for example:

Population Explosion

Population is an advantage Dublin have always had but, it's not something that would affect GAA policy or become much of an issue. Other counties have and had biggish populations and some have always had tiny populations. It's just the way things were. We have to go back to the Strategic Review Committee again to see how things changed.

One of the reasons that committee recommended splitting Dublin was because of population reasons. Here's what Christy Cooney, who chaired the sub committee that examined Dublin, had to say; "You must remember that there are 1.4 million people in the region and 2,000,000 or more will be there in 20 years time. There's no way one county board is going to manage that. We met all of the units in Dublin last year, as well as the county board. Improvements are necessary and that's not the fault of the board or clubs."

I'm not sure exactly where he was meaning by 'in the region' but we have to look at population figures closely again. Going on CSO figures, Dublin's population will continue to increase at a high rate.





It could increase by up to nearly 300,000 people by 2031. That's more than the population of most counties. Dublin will have a population of over 2 million in the near future. A high percentage of the total population on this island. From a GAA point of view, how is this sustainable? We've seen concerns raised at the beginning of this century and they will continue to grow. Can anyone seriously see Dublin remaining as they are with nearly 1/4 of the countries population?

Don’t forget to include competition from other sports.

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micks wrote: »

Haha.

And that’s why you won’t be taken seriously

Look at the whole picture

Games development funding is based on members. Look at the whole picture

What is this? Is this meant to be a defence of the huge funding Dublin have received? Explain yourself.

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micks wrote: »

Don’t forget to include competition from other sports.

Other sports are played in every single county in Ireland.

micks

DONTMATTER wrote: »

What is this? Is this meant to be a defence of the huge funding Dublin have received? Explain yourself.

For all the unfair financial advantages Dublin get they don’t spend the most

Go figure that out

micks

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Other sports are played in every single county in Ireland.

Really? To the same level?
I’d say there’s more kids playing football in Dublin than in the rest of the country combined.
DDSL win the Kennedy cup every year
DDSL clubs win SFAI Cups prob 90% of the time

But of a trend with dublin sports?

redlead

DONTMATTER wrote: »

Something serious has to be done. Gaelic Football will end up like hurling in a couple of years with only a handful competing. Maybe that's what the top teams want? Get rid of the riff raff?

Hurling is already much more competitive than football. The tiered championship works. Six teams at the start of the year had a realistic chance of winning and the majority of games are very competitive. There are just so many one sided poor standard games in football now. Its ruining the game.

I don't think it's a case of getting rid of the riff raff, but just having sensible tiered championships. I'm from Waterford and we should be nowhere near a top level competition. I don't even want to see it myself. You'd be hoping to draw a really rubbish team in the qualifiers just so we have a chance of competing in game. I used to go to a lot of Dublin games with friends who are from Dublin but we've all started going to less now because its so boring.

I suspect what will happen is we will get a good few good games with the super 8s and everyone will be saying that's great but the white elephant in the room will be ignored. Not necessarily dublins advantages but having a championship where the overall standard is absolute muck.

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micks wrote: »

For all the unfair financial advantages Dublin get they don’t spend the most

Go figure that out

Am they do spend the most.

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micks wrote: »

Really? To the same level?
I’d say there’s more kids playing football in Dublin than in the rest of the country combined.
DDSL win the Kennedy cup every year
DDSL clubs win SFAI Cups prob 90% of the time

But of a trend with dublin sports?

I don't know what ddsl is. Football is Gaelic football, I think you're talking about soccer.

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redlead wrote: »

Hurling is already much more competitive than football. The tiered championship works. Six teams at the start of the year had a realistic chance of winning and the majority of games are very competitive. There are just so many one sided poor standard games in football now. Its ruining the game.

I don't think it's a case of getting rid of the riff raff, but just having sensible tiered championships. I'm from Waterford and we should be nowhere near a top level competition. I don't even want to see it myself. You'd be hoping to draw a really rubbish team in the qualifiers just so we have a chance of competing in game. I used to go to a lot of Dublin games with friends who are from Dublin but we've all started going to less now because its so boring.

I suspect what will happen is we will get a good few good games with the super 8s and everyone will be saying that's great but the white elephant in the room will be ignored. Not necessarily dublins advantages but having a championship where the overall standard is absolute muck.

Who is going to get kicked out of the main championship? Fermanagh? Laois? They got to a provincial final this year. Cork got destroyed, are they going into the B championship? Carlow beat kildare, which team gets kicked out? Are Clare going? Tipperary? Down and Derry have to go cause they're struggling.
You'll be left with only a couple of counties. It's almost impossible for teams in the lower tiers in hurling to catch up. You lower the level of competition for a team and their level will lower accordingly.
Look at Antrim and Laois. They used to compete in the top tier, now they are mid table Joe McDonagh teams. This doesn't work! There's one thing that works and the template has been made.
Dublin hurling. They were on the same level as Antrim and Laois. What changed was that they got a big increase in funding. They improved bit by bit and since have won a provincial championship and a national league. They are now competitive with all counties in the top tier.
That's what needs to be done. It works. Kicking teams out doesn't and it will devastate Gaelic football in many counties like it has in hurling.

Fann Linn

Just to throw a curve ball into this- what has splitting Dublin got to do with 'financial doping'?

If there is a problem with financial funding or allocations shouldn't that be the area that needs to be rectified?

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Fann Linn wrote: »

Just to throw a curve ball into this- what has splitting Dublin got to do with 'financial doping'?

If there is a problem with financial funding or allocations shouldn't that be the area that needs to be rectified?

If it was just a one or two year anomaly then fair enough. It's been happening since 2005. That length and level of imbalance is almost impossible to rectify.
That added to other things like the population explosion and the benefits it will bring to Gaelic Games in Dublin makes splitting the perfect solution.

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

The plan from the head honchos in the GAA was to bankroll Dublin GAA and in return they would see revenue increase, sponsorship, tv deals and so on. That has worked but at the detriment of the overall strength of our games.

Your second paragraph is wrong. 2 small counties in Laois and Westmeath had an attendance of 56,000. The replay was less, today's attendance was 41,000. Crowds are falling!

The Westmeath-Laois replay attracted 38,300. These sort of attendances would be the norm if Dublin were not involved. Blaming Dublin for falling attendances is a dubious business.

Powerhouse

DONTMATTER wrote: »

If it was just a one or two year anomaly then fair enough. It's been happening since 2005. That length and level of imbalance is almost impossible to rectify.
That added to other things like the population explosion and the benefits it will bring to Gaelic Games in Dublin makes splitting the perfect solution.

Your "population explosion" angle is a myth. Yes, the population has increased but the population of Dublin relative to elsewhere has not.

The linked article - which demonstrates that population dispersion is largely the same as it was half a century ago - is worth a read as this is a myth constantly propagated.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/comment/dan-obrien-rural-ireland-is-not-dying-and-its-time-we-came-to-our-census-36606695.html

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Powerhouse wrote: »

The Westmeath-Laois replay attracted 38,300. These sort of attendances would be the norm if Dublin were not involved. Blaming Dublin for falling attendances is a dubious business.

I caught you out trying to pull a fast one. The Leinster Final between Westmeath and Laois had an attendance of over 56,000, the Saturday evening replay was 38,000. The Leinster final yesterday had an attendance of 41,000.
The claim was made that Dublin was financing the Leinster championship.

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Powerhouse wrote: »

Your "population explosion" angle is a myth. Yes, the population has increased but the population of Dublin relative to elsewhere has not.

The linked article - which demonstrates that population dispersion is largely the same as it was half a century ago - is worth a read as this is a myth constantly propagated.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/comment/dan-obrien-rural-ireland-is-not-dying-and-its-time-we-came-to-our-census-36606695.html

Here's my population explosion post:

Population Explosion


Population is an advantage Dublin have always had but, it's not something that would affect GAA policy or become much of an issue. Other counties have and had biggish populations and some have always had tiny populations. It's just the way things were. We have to go back to the Strategic Review Committee again to see how things changed.

One of the reasons that committee recommended splitting Dublin was because of population reasons. Here's what Christy Cooney, who chaired the sub committee that examined Dublin, had to say; "You must remember that there are 1.4 million people in the region and 2,000,000 or more will be there in 20 years time. There's no way one county board is going to manage that. We met all of the units in Dublin last year, as well as the county board. Improvements are necessary and that's not the fault of the board or clubs."

I'm not sure exactly where he was meaning by 'in the region' but we have to look at population figures closely again. Going on CSO figures, Dublin's population will continue to increase at a high rate.





It could increase by up to nearly 300,000 people by 2031. That's more than the population of most counties. Dublin will have a population of over 2 million in the near future. A high percentage of the total population on this island. From a GAA point of view, how is this sustainable? We've seen concerns raised at the beginning of this century and they will continue to grow. Can anyone seriously see Dublin remaining as they are with nearly 1/4 of the countries population?