Now is the time to take control of schools away from the church

Mutant z

The time has come to take control of schools away from the church the fact that over 90% of schools in this country are under the control of the catholic church is baffling considering Ireland is now a largely irreligious country which has moved away from the catholic church so why is its ethos still being forced on the majority of the population. The fact is the days when the church ruled the roost in this country is thankfully over so why isnt it being reflected in state institutions which are by and large still under the control and influence of the RCC. Religion should be an entirely private matter not forcing its own ethos and morality over the education system so its time to end the religious dominance over schools once and for all.

_Brian

I can’t understand why your baffled. It’s quite simple really.

As the Irish state developed the church stepped in and got involved in developing schools, it shouldered much of the cost of school infrastructure. To this day they in many cases still retain ownership of the land schools are built on, the schools themselves are generally the property of the state.

It’s often cited as the reason that the church retain some degree of control in schools - they are the site owners after all.

I would suggest the solution is CPO, we regularly see farmers land being CPO’d for public infrastructure developments. In the same way these sites could be forcibly purchased from the church which would finally break any hold they have over schools.

Truly there was a missed opportunity under the FF government when settlement for abuse cases was reached, a clause to include turning these lands over to the state should have been included and a cost neutral solution was missed.

kneemos

The state sets the curriculum.
They haven't been willing to stir the pot in regards to sex and religious education.

Subcomandante Marcos

_Brian wrote: »

I can’t understand why your baffled. It’s quite simple really.

As the Irish state developed the church stepped in and got involved in developing schools, it shouldered much of the cost of school infrastructure. To this day they in many cases still retain ownership of the land schools are built on, the schools themselves are generally the property of the state.

It’s often cited as the reason that the church retain some degree of control in schools - they are the site owners after all.

I would suggest the solution is CPO, we regularly see farmers land being CPO’d for public infrastructure developments. In the same way these sites could be forcibly purchased from the church which would finally break any hold they have over schools.

Truly there was a missed opportunity under the FF government when settlement for abuse cases was reached, a clause to include turning these lands over to the state should have been included and a cost neutral solution was missed.

Most of the land used for school building was given to the church in trust for the provision of schools.

The church owes the state hundreds of millions in redress for the clerical abuse settlements. Just size the land national and secondary schools are built on and tell them we'll take the remainder in installments until they finally repay the victims of their abuse.

Graces7

There are many who want their children educated in a Catholic school

google "ceist"

Subcomandante Marcos

Graces7 wrote: »

There are many who want their children educated in a Catholic school

google "ceist"

Then let them establish private schools for that purpose.

The state shouldn't be funding the religious indoctrination of children and it certainly shouldn't be done in time that is being wasted in school and could be used for something that is genuinely useful like languages, math, arts, stem subjects or even sport.

If people want a "choice" then give them the choice, right now we have a church controlled monopoly on primary and secondary education in this country and it's a disgrace in 2018.

kneemos

Graces7 wrote: »

There are many who want their children educated in a Catholic school

google "ceist"

These people are well able to deliver their own religious education.

This is the kind of thing that happens in a ceist school.

https://extra.ie/2017/11/05/news/irish-news/nun-blocks-unmarried-mothers-promotion

_Brian

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Most of the land used for school building was given to the church in trust for the provision of schools.

The church owes the state hundreds of millions in redress for the clerical abuse settlements. Just size the land national and secondary schools are built on and tell them we'll take the remainder in installments until they finally repay the victims of their abuse.

That deal is done and dusted, a bad deal but we are bound to it. It was a terrible missed opportunity.

The state just can’t start seize land, it must operate within set rules. CPO is really the best option.

Zebra3

Love that line that the RC Church “stepped in” to help with education like it was some sort of benevolent move.

Access to kids to rape them and indoctrinate them.

Subcomandante Marcos

_Brian wrote: »

That deal is done and dusted, a bad deal but we are bound to it. It was a terrible missed opportunity.

The state just can’t start seize land, it must operate within set rules. CPO is really the best option.

If the religious orders have any sort of honour or shame they'd hand over the lands.

Atoms for Peace

Primary is quite fair and egalitarian here compared to other Anglo sphere nations, I really hope it stays that way it's much more important than who owns the building.

Sonics2k

Graces7 wrote: »

There are many who want their children educated in a Catholic school

google "ceist"

By all means, educate your children in Catholic schools.

However, there should be a separation of Church and State, so the State (and taxpayer) should not fund religious ethos schools.

Mrs OBumble

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Then let them establish private schools for that purpose.

The church shouldn't be funding the religious indoctrination of children and it certainly shouldn't be done in time that is being wasted in school and could be used for something that is genuinely useful like languages, math, arts, stem subjects or even sport.

If people want a "choice" then give them the choice, right now we have a church controlled monopoly on primary and secondary education in this country and it's a disgrace in 2018.

They already have formed their own school's.

It's atheist (sic) Ireland that hasn't bothered to pull its finger out of it's arse and set up secular schools.

So the catholic schools have to keep admitting non-Cstholic kids.

Donald Trump

Sonics2k wrote: »

By all means, educate your children in Catholic schools.

However, there should be a separation of Church and State, so the State (and taxpayer) should not fund religious ethos schools.

That's complete discrimination.


The state provides a per capita grant for each child of school going age. This grant follows the child



If there are sufficient children attending an institution, the state will pay teaching salaries within limits - of course there are requirements as regards standards and curriculum etc.


So the system is open and transparent from that end.


If you don't want to support the continuation of your local religious school then don't send your child there. It isn't a conspiracy

One eyed Jack

Sonics2k wrote: »

By all means, educate your children in Catholic schools.

However, there should be a separation of Church and State, so the State (and taxpayer) should not fund religious ethos schools.

There should absolutely be a separation of Church and State, but the problem with that is that the State simply cannot afford to build it's own schools, so it funds the education of children by outsourcing it through the patronage system. The Catholic Bishops of Ireland just happen to be the largest patron provider of education. It's up to people who want a secular education for their children to campaign for that, because the Government certainly has no intention of getting rid of the patronage system.

Donald Trump

_Brian wrote: »

That deal is done and dusted, a bad deal but we are bound to it. It was a terrible missed opportunity.

The state just can’t start seize land, it must operate within set rules. CPO is really the best option.

What is being described is not CPO but nationalization.

Berserker

Mutant z wrote: »

The time has come to take control of schools away from the church the fact that over 90% of schools in this country are under the control of the catholic church is baffling considering Ireland is now a largely irreligious country which has moved away from the catholic church so why is its ethos still being forced on the majority of the population.

What makes you say that the RoI is an irreligious country? 90% of the population are aligned to a religion, according to the CSO.

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Most of the land used for school building was given to the church in trust for the provision of schools.

The church owes the state hundreds of millions in redress for the clerical abuse settlements.

It was the vision of the founding fathers of the Irish Republic for it to be a Roman Catholic only country. The state was a strong enabler and supporter of the Roman Catholic church back then. The Irish state would have to buy that land back from the church. The state can't go around taking back land.

kneemos

Donald Trump wrote: »

That's complete discrimination.


The state provides a per capita grant for each child of school going age. This grant follows the child



If there are sufficient children attending an institution, the state will pay teaching salaries within limits - of course there are requirements as regards standards and curriculum etc.


So the system is open and transparent from that end.


If you don't want to support the continuation of your local religious school then don't send your child there. It isn't a conspiracy

No choice in most areas.

Donald Trump

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There should absolutely be a separation of Church and State, but the problem with that is that the State simply cannot afford to build it's own schools, so it funds the education of children by outsourcing it through the patronage system. The Catholic Bishops of Ireland just happen to be the largest patron provider of education. It's up to people who want a secular education for their children to campaign for that, because the Government certainly has no intention of getting rid of the patronage system.

It's up to them to put their money where their mouth is. Fundraise and build their own schools.

Donald Trump

kneemos wrote: »

No choice in most areas.

No, there is always a choice.


What you mean is that there is no alternate option that others have put on your plate with no need for any effort on your own part.


Faced with the option between

A) hypocritically sending their kids to a school and simultaneously ungraciously belittling the institution and people who put in the effort to provide it, and

doing work to set up an alternative
well everyone picks "A". which is why we have the discussion. The parents 20 years ago didn't put in the effort, the parents 10 years ago didn't, current ones won't and in 10 years they won't. So the moaning and whining can continue.

kneemos

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's up to them to put their money where their mouth is. Fundraise and build their own schools.

Nope. It's the states responsibility to provide an education for everyone.

Donald Trump

kneemos wrote: »

Nope. It's the states responsibility to provide an education for everyone.

Yes, but not an individualized plan for every single person.


So they will pay the teachers of your local school. give then capitation grants and ensure that there are transport options to your nearest school.


They aren't obligated to build and staff new different customized school for every parent who thinks their kid is special of doesn't like the existing school

Subcomandante Marcos

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They already have formed their own school's.

It's atheist (sic) Ireland that hasn't bothered to pull its finger out of it's arse and set up secular schools.

So the catholic schools have to keep admitting non-Cstholic kids.

Way to completely ignore reality...

_Brian

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

If the religious orders have any sort of honour or shame they'd hand over the lands.

I agree completely. But it’s not going to happen anytime soon.

One eyed Jack

kneemos wrote: »

Nope. It's the states responsibility to provide an education for everyone.

Nope, it's the States responsibility to provide for education. It's parents responsibility to ensure that their children are educated. The State is under no obligation to provide the type of education that parents want for their children, and parents are under no obligation to enrol their children in a school which is incongruent with their values, philosophy, beliefs or world view.

_Brian

Donald Trump wrote: »

What is being described is not CPO but nationalization.

No, the state already owns the buildings, pays the teachers, pays for heating and light. In nearly all cases the last hold the church have is owning the sites themselves. I can be certain of this in half a dozen sxchooks that I deal with.

The only way out that won’t cause a legal ****tstorm is to CPO the lands from them in the national interest of separating church and state.

Cost is the big factor though as for the process to be legal and withstand challenge a fair market price would need to be paid - on many cases that would be a problem.

kneemos

Donald Trump wrote: »

Yes, but not an individualized plan for every single person.


So they will pay the teachers of your local school. give then capitation grants and ensure that there are transport options to your nearest school.


They aren't obligated to build and staff new different customized school for every parent who thinks their kid is special of doesn't like the existing school

No,but if they're providing religious education it should be universal.

kneemos

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nope, it's the States responsibility to provide for education. It's parents responsibility to ensure that their children are educated. The State is under no obligation to provide the type of education that parents want for their children, and parents are under no obligation to enrol their children in a school which is incongruent with their values, philosophy, beliefs or world view.

So remove religious education entirely?


It is the states responsibility to ensure your child is educated by the way. Try not educating them and the authorities will be on your case.

Sonics2k

Donald Trump wrote: »

That's complete discrimination.

I don't think you know what discrimination means

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you don't want to support the continuation of your local religious school then don't send your child there. It isn't a conspiracy

My children live in a very small town in Limerick, there is one primary school. Their mother is an atheist and I am too. They have no choice but to attend a Catholic Primary school, where my son was taught his Hail Mary's before being taught basic math.

This was only 3 years ago.

One eyed Jack

Donald Trump wrote: »

It's up to them to put their money where their mouth is. Fundraise and build their own schools.

Well I personally don't have any issue with anyone campaigning for the State to fund the provision of schools for those people that want them. They're entitled to do that much at least. We all pay taxes and it's the Government decides how the money it receives is distributed.

That's why I never get this argument put forward by the OP either that Catholics should set up their own schools and fund them privately without funding from the State. Why should they when the State is perfectly willing to use their taxes to fund the current system?

Grayson

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you don't want to support the continuation of your local religious school then don't send your child there. It isn't a conspiracy

I believe something like 60% of people don't live within commutable distance of a non catholic school. And remember something like 92% of national schools are catholic. So there's simply a lack of space in non catholic schools. The church dominates the market so much that there's simply no option but to send your child to a catholic national school.

And I can't remember 100% but I believe the educate together and gaelscoils are christian too. So really it's impossible for most people to send their child to a non religious school.