Train cancellations 18th June onwards

GM228

Just got word that IE have made a proposal to the NTA to cancle a number of Intercity, Commuter and DART services "temporarily" from the 18th June until at least the end of August due to "staff shortages" and an effort to cut the OT bill.

No further details as yet.

ED E

trellheim

With the holiday season coming any idea what volume of services is being considered ?

nowaynever

Ah they're just catching up on Limerick Junction/Waterford Line...

devnull

If only IE had a batch of drivers recruited who they could finish training to take up some of the slack....

Basically what you may end up seeing is the fiasco about mentoring and the new drivers being paid to do diddly squat whilst the existing drivers earn large amounts of overtime coming home to roost in a big way...

GM228

trellheim wrote: »

With the holiday season coming any idea what volume of services is being considered ?

No idea, but I have heard the entire off-peak M3 line service, some DARTs, Bray diesel services, some Sligo, some Waterford, all Waterford to Limerick Junction and some Athlone to Galway being mentioned.

devnull

It'll be interesting to see how serious IE are about this, since there is part of me that thinks that if IE implement some kind of overtime ban, it's essentially them saying that they're no longer going to tolerate a situation where staff are holding up training of new drivers so they can continue earning lots of money from overtime.

By removing the chance to earn overtime, they may feel that this will push the drivers to comply with mentoring the new drivers, because it removes the biggest incentive that exists right now to not mentor.

end of the road

the minute i read the title of this thread i knew waterford limerick junction would be on that list. dublin waterford and dublin sligo being victims is also not a shock. i'm shocked ballybroaphy and rosslare aren't on it, or at least that we know of?
hopefully the NTA will stand up for the rail users for once and say no to this.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

By removing the chance to earn overtime, they may feel that this will push the drivers to comply with mentoring the new drivers, because it removes the biggest incentive that exists right now to not mentor.

Training of drivers re-commenced some time ago.

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

Training of drivers re-commenced some time ago.

Is everything being complied for in relation to mentoring now or is there still some hold up in this regard in getting those drivers who have sat around for a while doing nothing to become drivers?

Are any of the drivers to be mentored from the last year or so now driving or if not how long away from it are they?

nowaynever

end of the road wrote: »

the minute i read the title of this thread i knew waterford limerick junction would be on that list. dublin waterford and dublin sligo being victims is also not a shock. i'm shocked ballybroaphy and rosslare aren't on it, or at least that we know of?
hopefully the NTA will stand up for the rail users for once and say no to this.

Well it's either the rail users or the employees(A/L cancelations) who are going to suffer at this stage. What's your preference?

tara83

GM228 wrote: »

No idea, but I have heard the entire off-peak M3 line service, some DARTs, Bray diesel services, some Sligo, some Waterford, all Waterford to Limerick Junction and some Athlone to Galway being mentioned.

Any idea when we ll hear more? I depend on the M3 off peak service

GM228

devnull wrote: »

Is everything being complied for in relation to mentoring now or is there still some hold up in this regard in getting those drivers who have sat around for a while doing nothing to become drivers?

Are any of the drivers to be mentored from the last year or so now driving or if not how long away from it are they?

Yes, all is being complied with and all trainees from both grades are being mentored.

New classes are starting, and all existing trainees are expected to be out on their own by December or January.

GM228

tara83 wrote: »

Any idea when we ll hear more? I depend on the M3 off peak service

I'm told a submission is in with the NTA, I don't know the time frame, time will tell, but I would imagine soon considering it's less than 14 days time.

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

Yes, all is being complied with and all trainees from both grades are being mentored.

New classes are starting, and all existing trainees are expected to be out on their own by December or January.

So essentially a short term thing from Irish Rail, which will cease to be a problem when they have some of the trainees ready to go out as full drivers.

We appear to have a situation where the lack of mentoring and the time it took to solve that dispute is leading to a situation where there are not enough drivers to operate a service without paying lots of overtime which Irish Rail cannot afford.

All in all, still comes back to the fact that staff in Irish Rail had no incentive to mentor new staff because it would restrict their overtime earnings.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

All in all, still comes back to the fact that staff in Irish Rail had no incentive to mentor new staff because it would restrict their overtime earnings.

I'm not so sure, feedback we have received has indicated a very high uptake of the mentoring role (65% in some locations).

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

I'm not so sure, feedback we have received has indicated a very high uptake of the mentoring role (65% in some locations).

Well clearly less drivers means more chances of overtime and I'd be surprised if that wasn't a factor in why the mentoring dispute was going on for as long as it was and if the training had started earlier we'd probably not have the issues that seem to be coming down the line in relation to service cancellations.

hole in my lovelywall

GM228 wrote: »

No idea, but I have heard the entire off-peak M3 line service, some DARTs, Bray diesel services, some Sligo, some Waterford, all Waterford to Limerick Junction and some Athlone to Galway being mentioned.

Hard enough get a seat on some routes as it is.
Do trains get much busier, or maybe quieter, during the summer holiday season?

Stephen15

hole in my lovelywall wrote: »

Hard enough get a seat on some routes as it is.
Do trains get much busier, or maybe quieter, during the summer holiday season?

Quieter during the peak and busier off peak with the school holidays. More people off peak travelling for leisure and less during the peak due to people being on holidays and no schools. Just a guess I would also say more people travel on intercity trains going on weekend breaks and day trips as the weather gets better.

Del.Monte

It would be nice if CIE employed management and staff prepared to work for a living instead of taking the piss. Sooner or later somebody is going to have to shut the whole concern down as it becomes more irrelevant to 21st century Ireland by the day.

dublinbuster

IE is broke
The Bray signal damage a few weeks ago will cost a few million to fix
have to rob peter to pay paul
i blame the NTA

Bray Head

Lots of countries have explicit timetables for school holidays for particular routes. 

It suits everyone. Less demand, and also generally the time when drivers want to take holidays.

Why can't this be done in Ireland?

devnull

dublinbuster wrote: »

IE is broke
The Bray signal damage a few weeks ago will cost a few million to fix
have to rob peter to pay paul
i blame the NTA

Not much the NTA can do about the fact that Irish Rail staff have been refusing to mentor staff for the last two years to the point that no new drivers have been able to go live on the mainline which has resulted in lots of staff extracting lots of extra money in overtime out of it whole situation.

When such kind of things happen it's easy to see why people have the belief that the company, despite being a public service, is run for the staff rather than the public itself.

dublinbuster

devnull wrote: »

Not much the NTA can do about the fact that Irish Rail staff have been refusing to mentor staff for the last two years to the point that no new drivers have been able to go live on the mainline which has resulted in lots of staff extracting lots of extra money in overtime out of it whole situation.

When such kind of things happen it's easy to see why people have the belief that the company, despite being a public service, is run for the staff rather than the public itself.

what has this got to do with the damage in bray?
several million has to be found to fix problem, NTA should be paying for this unexpected expense, but it is IE who now have to find the money to keep one of the few lines worth keeping up and running, the DART.

nowaynever

dublinbuster wrote: »

IE is broke
The Bray signal damage a few weeks ago will cost a few million to fix
have to rob peter to pay paul
i blame the NTA

Can you post a copy of the bill or did you just one up with a rough estimate?

dublinbuster

devnull wrote: »

When such kind of things happen it's easy to see why people have the belief that the company, despite being a public service, is run for the staff rather than the public itself.

if laughable this view.
come work in the workers paradise that is CIE if you think this is true.
it will be a shock to the system, CIE is set up to squeeze the most out of staff, and the passengers are a afterthought

devnull

dublinbuster wrote: »

what has this got to do with the damage in bray?

I assumed we were talking about the cancellations of trains as well since that is the topic at hand, if I misunderstood I apologise but at the end of the day paying lots of staff overtime whilst also paying a batch of drivers to sit idle because nobody will train them would have for sure had a negative impact on their finances overall.

You'd have thought that they would have some kind of decent fire suppression equipment though in Bray which would have resulted in less damage and disruption than there was.

Drifter50

GM228 wrote: »

No idea, but I have heard the entire off-peak M3 line service, some DARTs, Bray diesel services, some Sligo, some Waterford, all Waterford to Limerick Junction and some Athlone to Galway being mentioned.

Jeez, Sligo line seems busier than ever these days, surprised it would get a mentioneven off peak

Jamie2k9

While I think IE have taken a good step (getting a grip on OT) here I cannot see the NTA approving such widespread cancellations.

Notice Cork/Limerick have been protected yet over the last few weeks they have had no drivers available.

Jamie2k9

dublinbuster wrote: »

IE is broke
The Bray signal damage a few weeks ago will cost a few million to fix
have to rob peter to pay paul
i blame the NTA

Have your heard of a small thing called insurance....

Jeez, Sligo line seems busier than ever these days, surprised it would get a mentioneven off peak

You shouldn't be surprised, they will alters cut busy services over others.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

While I think IE have taken a good step (getting a grip on OT) here I cannot see the NTA approving such widespread cancellations.

And that is the issue isn't it.

If they don't allow the cancellations it means that Irish Rail are going to have to continue to pay overtime and the staff know that and that's why I'd expect the unions to come full frontal out on that, no doubt using a smokescreen such as underfunding is the reason Irish Rail can't pay them overtime.

Then you'll have the opposition coming out and dancing to the tune of underfunding as well and pointing out that the public are suffering due to cancelled trains. So whilst I see why Irish Rail want to get a grip on OT and it does need to be dealt with, I just can't see this working out.

Stephen15

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have your heard of a small thing called insurance....

CIE self insure

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

CIE self insure

Isn't that for their fleets, not their buildings?

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

And that is the issue isn't it.

If they don't allow the cancellations it means that Irish Rail are going to have to continue to pay overtime and the staff know that and that's why I'd expect the unions to come full frontal out on that, no doubt using a smokescreen such as underfunding is the reason Irish Rail can't pay them overtime.

Then you'll have the opposition coming out and dancing to the tune of underfunding as well and pointing out that the public are suffering due to cancelled trains. So whilst I see why Irish Rail want to get a grip on OT and it does need to be dealt with, I just can't see this working out.

They may know it but the reality is more drivers will be available in 6-9 months across the network and driver training must be completed as per the agreement.

I would expect short notice cancellations on routes with high frequency over the next few months. It will be impossible for the NTA to take such action.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They may know it but the reality is more drivers will be available in 6-9 months across the network and driver training must be completed as per the agreement.

Of course, once some of those drivers come on stream the amount of overtime is going to be limited again, but Irish Rail have to get through to the point when they are and after that hopefully they'll never be in the situation again now the mentoring dispute is sorted. But if it was sorted ages ago we'd likely not have the issue at all.

I would expect short notice cancellations on routes with high frequency over the next few months. It will be impossible for the NTA to take such action.

Well if they are cancelling services then you'd imagine they'd be cancelling a whole diagram rather than just the odd journey on existing diagram, so the capacity should be able to be used to bolster other services. I do realise that this is Irish Rail we are talking about though so I don't expect it to happen for sure, but you'd imagine it'd make sense to.

nowaynever

dublinbuster wrote: »

if laughable this view.
come work in the workers paradise that is CIE if you think this is true.
it will be a shock to the system, CIE is set up to squeeze the most out of staff, and the passengers are a afterthought

That’s hilarious. ‘Tis a doddle.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have your heard of a small thing called insurance....

Stephen15 wrote: »

CIE self insure

devnull wrote: »

Isn't that for their fleets, not their buildings?

CIE have two separate self insurance schemes, one to the tune of an overall €27M SIR for motor related incidents to cover their obligations as exempted persons under the Road Traffic Act 1961, their other self insurance is to the tune of €200M and carries an all risks indemnity.

Stephen15

dublinbuster wrote: »

what has this got to do with the damage in bray?
several million has to be found to fix problem, NTA should be paying for this unexpected expense, but it is IE who now have to find the money to keep one of the few lines worth keeping up and running, the DART.

Whether it IE or The NTA pay for it it is irrelevant the government will pay for through subsidy or directly and rightly so it's national infrastructure.

Jamie2k9

8 services cancelled today, 2 part cancelled.

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/service-alert

hole in my lovelywall

That's no sort of notice to give customers!

marno21

What a sham

The gift that keeps on giving

devnull

Latest

A short delay may occur on the following services:

17:05hrs Dublin Heuston to Tralee
20:25hrs Cork to Dublin Heuston

thomasj

Presuming that short delay is to allow for the 19:05 Tralee cork bus substitution to make connections to those services even in the event of a delay on the road.

Jamie2k9

All those cruise ship specials in recent weeks have clearly taken the toll on resources.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All those cruise ship specials in recent weeks have clearly taken the toll on resources.

Shouldn't be running special services if they can't run the public service obligation ones because of lack of staff.

Richard tea

devnull wrote: »

Shouldn't be running special services if they can't run the public service obligation ones because of lack of staff.

Including the Belmont?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

8 services cancelled today, 2 part cancelled.

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/service-alert

Nice sunny day to be off sick

hole in my lovelywall wrote: »

That's no sort of notice to give customers!

You can't predict sickness.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

All those cruise ship specials in recent weeks have clearly taken the toll on resources.

devnull wrote: »

Shouldn't be running special services if they can't run the public service obligation ones because of lack of staff.

To be fair they have nothing to do with today.

Richard tea wrote: »

Including the Belmont?

Belmond, what's special about that :rolleyes:

Jamie2k9

Any update on this, I am guessing nothing is changing for now?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Any update on this, I am guessing nothing is changing for now?

No agreement (yet) from the NTA and so deferred by a week at least.

goingnowhere

Well if the NTA agree the CEO of the NTA should go looking for another job

Jamie2k9

No agreement (yet) from the NTA and so deferred by a week at least.

They should also prevent any specials from operating over the duration of the cuts. You know to ensure the overtime bill stays down!