absenteeism.........how do people get away with it?

ethical

A few of us were chatting recently and the topic of absenteeism came up.One person remarked that there was a marked increase in teachers being absent,maybe as much as a day per week,in his school.He wondered how they were managing this in light of the recently introduced curtailment of sick days.One bad bout of illness or a leg break etc would see the staff member getting to the place where their pay would be halved.Yet some teachers give the profession a bad name by not turning up for work and letting their colleagues carry the can by way of the Substitution and Supervision scheme.
Another teacher remarked that he knows of at least one teacher in his school that has been ever present this year and added "it was not even noticed!"

(considering that there is 167 days of attendence required for a full school year I would nearly say that some teachers have only managed to be present 100 days.I'm not talking longer term sickness or even a bad 'flu etc but the carry on of missing a day a week!!! We all know one of them,how do they do it,do they have a doctors pad of certs that they write themselves!)....and dont get me started on the teacher that goes "away" overseas for a break during term time.

happywithlife

I may be your colleague ! Have bouts of absences due to son's illness - I vary it between certified leave, family illness & force majure
I was recently out sick myself for 3 days after being out a day the week before with family illness
I then had a personal day booked & approved weeks beforehand for my daughter's confirmation
I only recently discovered I can ask for parental leave one day a week on a block basis to cover therapies - appointments I've rescheduled so many times to fit in around early finish/half day/holidays
I wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of absences you're talking of though. Have a colleague who would never ever return the favour of a personal day cover yet swans off the Friday of 3 holidays so far this year as he has a holiday apartment abroad- now that irritates me

I have subbed in a lot of schools and have never come across wholesale absenteeism like you're suggesting though.
You never know what's going on in someone's life so don't be so quick to judge. Lots wouldn't know about my son's illnesses for example and may think I'm taking the proverbial - esp if I try to facilitate hospital.appoinments so I can be in for the morning/ afternoon. I've even left him at the hospital during a stay crossed town to do leaving cert classes and back to the hospital again. (Note he was on the mend by that stage & dad was with him)

2xj3hplqgsbkym

I'm teaching 15 years, I have never come across someone who has been absent one day a week or near it. Sounds a bit exaggerated to be honest .

spurious

I worked in some pretty stressful places and never worked with anyone with that level of sickness, unless it was a major illness like cancer or something.
I handled the deputy work for a few years and never had someone regularly miss a day a week.

They would be stopped pay after reaching the maximum permitted days.

byhookorbycrook

Ah, so you heard this, so it must be true.
I call total BS on this, in our school, you nearly have to force people to stay out when they are sick, trying to get a sub and ensure work is left for the class and marking it after makes it almost worth going in, unless you physically can't stand.

"We all know one of them?"No "we" don't.

Pawwed Rig

Gwen Witty Cloak wrote: »

I'm teaching 15 years, I have never come across someone who has been absent one day a week or near it. Sounds a bit exaggerated to be honest .

My English teacher in 5th and 6th year missed at least 3 months of each year (probably more). My 7 sibling who went to the same school had similar experiences. It caused chaos with the LC course.

byhookorbycrook

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

My English teacher in 5th and 6th year missed at least 3 months of each year (probably more). My 7 sibling who went to the same school had similar experiences. It caused chaos with the LC course.

Was the teacher on sick leave? Entitlements have changed in a big way over the past years, that teacher would be into unpaid leave very quickly, considering that if you miss a Friday and the following Monday, that counts are 4 days.The same applies to mid-terms etc.

Icsics

The only teachers regularly missing in our place are the P & DP.....JMB, NCAPD etc etc endless amount of ‘conferences’ & ‘cluster meetings’, on average at least one day per week, sometimes more

SligoBrewer

If someone is out, it's probably for a good reason. Teachers should be supportive and understanding, not standing there with knives drawn. We've no idea what is going on in people's lives.

The sick leave changes that were brought in aren't necessarily a good thing fwiw.

r93kaey5p2izun

I've never come across anything like this at all. Opposite problem with people coming in sick because there's no subs. Cancer or a seriously ill child are the only cases of long or frequent absences I've ever seen. And personal days are very difficult to get in my ETB so no issues there. The majority in my school would miss no days most years.

RealJohn

I have colleague who take a lot of sick days but not to the extent described in the OP.

I don’t think that the situation is entirely unbelievable though. I don’t think the thought of losing half a day’s pay is necessarily the big deterrent that some are making it out to be though. I imagine there are lots of teachers out there who are good and high on the scale and might have a spouse with a good job too. Missing a few days here and there probably wouldn’t be that big a hit for some people, especially when more than half would be going on tax anyway.

Granted, they’re gambling with the possibility of getting a serious illness which would necessitate them losing a lot of days but then, they might have income continuance protection too. To be honest, while I wouldn’t do it myself, I can totally see why people would. Those same people are probably a lot less stressed on account of their extra days off. It’s not as though you get any credit for being in. I don’t think I’ve missed any days this year and nobody has said a word to me about it. You get no thanks for just doing your job (and maybe that’s fair enough) and not taking sick days.

I do agree that some people might think organising cover is too much trouble but then, some people don’t care too much about doing that properly, so it’s not necessarily such a huge deterrent either.

Millem

If you miss a certain number of days in a year you are sent to medmark.

Pawwed Rig

RealJohn wrote: »

I don’t think I’ve missed any days this year and nobody has said a word to me about it. You get no thanks for just doing your job (and maybe that’s fair enough) and not taking sick days.

What thanks do you want? You get paid right?



Surely the thanks is knowing you did a good job and thinking of your students looking back in years to come thinking Mr RealJohn - now there was a good teacher not like Mrs Rig who was never in.


But if you are really needy then let me say on behalf of the people of Ireland Thank you so much for going into work and doing the job you are paid for

evolving_doors

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

What thanks do you want? You get paid right?



Surely the thanks is knowing you did a good job and thinking of your students looking back in years to come thinking Mr RealJohn - now there was a good teacher not like Mrs Rig who was never in.


But if you are really needy then let me say on behalf of the people of Ireland Thank you so much for going into work and doing the job you are paid for

Tone it down a bit Pawwed Rig, Realjohn implied he didn't expect any thanks

RealJohn wrote: »

You get no thanks for just doing your job (and maybe that’s fair enough)

.

Pawwed Rig has received a warning.

Back on topic

Thanks

Mod

rainbowtrout

ethical wrote: »

A few of us were chatting recently and the topic of absenteeism came up.One person remarked that there was a marked increase in teachers being absent,maybe as much as a day per week,in his school.He wondered how they were managing this in light of the recently introduced curtailment of sick days.One bad bout of illness or a leg break etc would see the staff member getting to the place where their pay would be halved.Yet some teachers give the profession a bad name by not turning up for work and letting their colleagues carry the can by way of the Substitution and Supervision scheme.
Another teacher remarked that he knows of at least one teacher in his school that has been ever present this year and added "it was not even noticed!"

(considering that there is 167 days of attendence required for a full school year I would nearly say that some teachers have only managed to be present 100 days.I'm not talking longer term sickness or even a bad 'flu etc but the carry on of missing a day a week!!! We all know one of them,how do they do it,do they have a doctors pad of certs that they write themselves!)....and dont get me started on the teacher that goes "away" overseas for a break during term time.

Ah here, this is ridiculous hyperbole. There are 33 weeks in a school year. If they were missing one day a week they would miss 33 days, not 67.

Not to mind the fact that they would have long since been sent to Medmark. That and there are 7 uncertified days per year. So I honestly can't see how a teacher would be taking a day a week off with certification, it would cost them a fortune in medical certs. But even if they are, if they are providing a cert every week then they are covered. No one would go to the effort of a medical cert per week just to get the day off work.

I think some teachers behaved like this in the past but that it is no longer a thing. And the restrictions on sick leave brought in a couple of years ago put an end to it, but also put huge pressure on those who are genuinely sick.

I broke my leg in February, the week before midterm. It was 10 weeks before I could walk and go back to work. Now I only missed 7 weeks in school because my leave overlapped with Feb midterm and Easter holidays but 10 weeks of sick leave was used up in total. I was out sick for a week 2 years ago. So I have used up 11 weeks in total in the last two years.

With the 3 months half pay and three months full pay on a rolling four year basis, I only have two weeks left before I go onto half pay if I get sick in that time, and a further four years before that 10 week stint drops off my record. I had that horrible winter flu over christmas this year, and was laid up for a week. I was pissed off at the time that I spent half the holidays dosed, now I am glad as it would have been another week used up. If I get flu this winter, I'll have to seriously consider whether I can take the time off.

spurious

Without giving too much identifying info. I know of at least two serving teachers with serious life-altering conditions who missed vital checkups and appointments because they had already used up their sick days because of hospitalisation/treatment etc. and would lose pay if they took another day off.

I doubt that was the intention of the 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' changes in the sick leave rules, or rather I hope it was not.

RealJohn

Every time this comes up, I get more and more angry that you lose sick days for days you’re not actually missing. If the school is not open, you should not be losing sick days, end of story.

Counting Saturday and Sunday if you’re out Friday and Monday is bad enough (and there must be a way to contest that anyway, surely?) but rainbowtrout’s story is beyond the beyond. Counting the three weeks when the school was on holidays? That is what we should be striking over.

joebloggs32

RealJohn wrote: »

Every time this comes up, I get more and more angry that you lose sick days for days you’re not actually missing. If the school is not open, you should not be losing sick days, end of story.

Counting Saturday and Sunday if you’re out Friday and Monday is bad enough (and there must be a way to contest that anyway, surely?) but rainbowtrout’s story is beyond the beyond. Counting the three weeks when the school was on holidays? That is what we should be striking over.

On the other hand, if we strike for one day we only lose 1/7 out of our weekly wage as opposed to 1/5 due to being salaried workers!

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

Every time this comes up, I get more and more angry that you lose sick days for days you’re not actually missing. If the school is not open, you should not be losing sick days, end of story.

Counting Saturday and Sunday if you’re out Friday and Monday is bad enough (and there must be a way to contest that anyway, surely?) but rainbowtrout’s story is beyond the beyond. Counting the three weeks when the school was on holidays? That is what we should be striking over.

I was due my check up the first week of the Easter holidays, and thought great, I'll be signed off sick leave and won't have two weeks of holidays eaten up. Then had to go back to get a pin out of my leg after the check up. Hospital gave me an appointment for the Tuesday the week we opened after Easter. Couldn't go back until that was done. So all my holidays we eaten up. Thanks Sligo General.

It's the same rubbish with maternity leave. If a woman takes maternity leave now, and it overlaps the holidays, tough luck. It's 26 weeks straight through, holiday leave not taken into account. When one of my friends rang HR about bank holidays that were overlapped (think she had hit a few over Christmas etc) she was told she could take them during her midterm break. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Millem

If your school goes back early to get Croke Park hours done and you are sick that also counts as a sick day even though it’s not an official school day with the Department.

RealJohn

Millem wrote: »

If your school goes back early to get Croke Park hours done and you are sick that also counts as a sick day even though it’s not an official school day with the Department.

But that’s a day you’re supposed to be at work so it’s hardly the same.

RealJohn

joebloggs32 wrote: »

On the other hand, if we strike for one day we only lose 1/7 out of our weekly wage as opposed to 1/5 due to being salaried workers!

How generous of them. How often do strike days come up, as opposed to sick days? It’s an absolute disgrace that they take sick days from us when we’re not supposed to be in work anyway and I know that it’s causing teachers to come in when they shouldn’t, both for their own health and the health of the others in the school. I know I’ve come in on days that I shouldn’t have just so as not to take a sick day and put doctor’s appointments off until Friday afternoon, just so that I wouldn’t risk being off Friday and Monday. It’s appalling that people who are genuinely sick are having to put off actually getting treatment so as to avoid being penalised for being sick at the weekend.

mirrorwall14

I really depends on personal circumstances and the time in your life. I had very little sick leave for my first years teaching but a diagnosis five years ago gave me one terrible year while they figured out what was wrong with me and eventually got it under control. Then unfortunately I have to come off the maintenance meds during pregnancy so I’ve had two bad bouts involving hospitalisation during two pregnancies in the last four years. I’ve also been out for a miscarriage. Most of that will not recur once I’m back on my maintenance meds and I don’t think we’ll be trying for a third.

Honestly I hate being out, it’s way way too much hassle

TheDriver

It is terrible, awful. The cuts in our entitlements was an awful cut.

However, there were some people who took the absolute mick out of the system which I saw (and fellow Principals). I mean teachers who would take all their sick leave entitlement just because they could (it would be very obvious). Or pregnancy illness being abused because it wasn't counted before. Its a pity but I would imagine that when all the figures are looked at in the department, theres a certain proportion that ruined it for the rest of us who genuinely don't like being out.

linguist

I don't think it reflects well on us to deny that there are some among us who appear to abuse the system and place a burden on management or their colleagues. The kind of defensiveness that we've seen here doesn't look good to the casual observer. Nobody should feel 'targeted' if they have nothing to do with what is being suggested. I agree with The Driver. There were abuses prior to the tightening up of the system and we have all paid a heavy price for them.

All that said, do teachers take excessive amounts of sick leave? Absolutely not. The published evidence shows that we have a very low level of absenteeism when compared with public sector colleagues. I think most teachers hate losing any time because they know what it entails. Every day at school is busy. You've always some activity or other planned with at least one of your classes that you are loathe to miss and have to re-arrange. You're under huge pressure to get the course covered and you know that there's a strong chance your students will not really work on satisfactorily when you're not there. In fact, rather than remarking who is 'out again', you often see somebody absent and remark to your colleagues 'I hope he/she is ok, they're never out'. That's actually far more common in my experience.

However, I have worked alongside people who have had patterns of absence that mysteriously seemed to add up to a certain number of days in the year. I have been a passive party to conversations regarding maternity leave where a summer birth was seen as unfortunate because you'd get less time off. And I do have an issue with people who have the annual leave we do and take a week off during term to get married. I certainly don't express those views openly. Call me a hypocrite or a keyboard warrior if you will. But we are having a discussion here around an issue that can exercise parents and students and in ways it might be a backhanded compliment that they want their trusted permanent teacher in class as much as possible. But there is no doubt that the perception of teacher absenteeism is wildly exaggerated and the figures are there to prove it.

rainbowtrout

linguist wrote: »

I don't think it reflects well on us to deny that there are some among us who appear to abuse the system and place a burden on management or their colleagues. The kind of defensiveness that we've seen here doesn't look good to the casual observer. Nobody should feel 'targeted' if they have nothing to do with what is being suggested. I agree with The Driver. There were abuses prior to the tightening up of the system and we have all paid a heavy price for them.
...
I have been a passive party to conversations regarding maternity leave where a summer birth was seen as unfortunate because you'd get less time off. And I do have an issue with people who have the annual leave we do and take a week off during term to get married

I don’t think anyone has denied it. Just commented that it happens less than it used to.

I don’t actually have a problem with women wanting to have their babies during term time. They are only going to give birth a few times over a potential 40 year career and if they can maximise the time they spend at home raisining their child then I don’t have a problem with that. Many women would love to be in a position where a December baby meant that they could potentially have 9 months at home with the child before going back to work.

Same with wedding leave. The argument of selfish teachers have 3 months in the summer to get married never consider the needs of their spouse who may not be able to get married in summer or they might have other reasons which necessitate a wedding during term time. Again most people only get married once, I wouldn’t begrudge them 5 days in a 40 year career

evolving_doors

I find the 'wedding during term time' has more to do with a relative or spouse, than the teacher themselves.

Millem

I don’t know how a teacher can “abuse” the sick leave system now. You are sent to Medmark after a number of days or can be sent for less days at the discretion of the management.
I have been to Medmark twice for two separate issues. If it is an ongoing issue they continue to see you every four weeks.

TheDriver

It's the self certified days whereby someone always takes the 7 in 2 years

Millem

TheDriver wrote: »

It's the self certified days whereby someone always takes the 7 in 2 years

I wouldn’t notice if someone took 4 days self certified in 1 year. If they took the 7 in one year they would of used up their entitlement.

You need a cert after two days together anyway.

The self certified days are included in the 92 days at full pay.

TheDriver

The cert is for day 4. I appreciate u wouldn't notice but a small number of teachers always take their max whereby it would be spread out evenly. Likewise the odd teacher has a doctor on speed dial and can get certs far too easily.

SligoBrewer

TheDriver wrote: »

It's the self certified days whereby someone always takes the 7 in 2 years

7 days in 2 years is ridiculously little.

evolving_doors

SligoBrewer wrote: »

7 days in 2 years is ridiculously little.

It's too much if it's just for 'duvet days'.
I have a friend in the Public Service (not teacher), their boss came to them and told them they had a sick days to use up before the end of the year, and when would they like to take them (just for planning purposes!)

Could you imagine if your principal came up to you and said that :pac:

badhairday

I worked with someone the OP describes in a school about 10 years ago. The teacher in question was constantly out- as in on a weekly basis. While I appreciate I wasn't privy to her medical file, she was young and seemingly fit. She also bizzarely seemed to take great delight in telling everyone how she knew all the tricks re: playing the system etc etc. She was pretty well despised by all the staff.

Hopefully this type of abuse can't happen today? What certainly does happen (in my school at least) is teachers taking 'personal' days off whenever they feel so they can go on holiday! I'm pretty sure this is not what personal days are for. One colleague took 3 days off to coincide with a match and the following celebrations (drinking). The same person is an ardent union man and apparently sees no irony when he constantly complains with 'the plight of teachers' etc! I find this practice particularly questionable. I appreciate there are times e.g. medical appointments, funerals etc that someone might need a day off but certainly the culture where I work is to ask colleagues to cover classes as the teacher is going on holidays, attending a stag or a sporting event. It's so brazen and is apparently endorsed by the management. The time off for weddings thing is also pretty incredible- you have 3 months free in the summer/other holidays to get married, I can't see why anyone in any profession, should be given time off for this. As mentioned, in my experience some of the main offenders are people who ironically complain the loudest...a dose of self-examination needed perhaps?

Millem

badhairday wrote: »

What certainly does happen (in my school at least) is teachers taking 'personal' days off whenever they feel so they can go on holiday!

Badhairday we might work in the same school!!

badhairday

ha! yes perhaps! It seems to be the practice in most schools as far as I can see.

byhookorbycrook

Personal days seems to be more of a secondary thing. In primary, we only get "personal" or EPV days if we do CPD over the summer. These are hugely important for say, attending a funeral/wedding/graduation etc. but it means your class are split and you have to leave work for them.Any primary teacher I have worked with will tell you it's more hassle than it's worth.

r93kaey5p2izun

Culture around personal days is a local issue specific to the individual school. Some ETBs don't allow them at all and most are fairly strict about them. What's described here is absolutely nothing like what I have experienced. We have to apply to the BOM in writing for a personal day and it must be approved in advance at a BOM meeting. They are often rejected. Generally they are granted for child's confirmation or communion and not much else. I had two granted in twelve years - both for sitting exams.

Moody_mona

Personal days are also a hassle to take at second level. In my school we need to ask teachers to use their free classes to cover so if you can't get your classes covered you're a no-go.

I actually disagree about the use of personal days bring criticised here. I remember a few years ago I was running it by my principal and I said it was for my brother's graduation and she cut me off before I finished. She said, and she's right, that it's irrelevant what it's for. There's provision for it. Leave at primary level is different anyway. It includes graduation of immediate family or weddings of near relatives, these all need to be covered by personal days in second level.

John0000

Sometimes people need to take a day due to illness or god knows what and I have no problem with that at all! I do have a problem when two teachers get married during School time. I think it is a bit Irish. Maybe my judgement is clouded because I worked with a girl who was getting married and seemed quite gleeful telling people she or hubby to be wouldn't waste their summer holidays to get married. Same girl took a half day everyday up to the Friday when she got married and then day of the holidays had cover arranged it seemed. Her attitude towards her exam students who had projects due in was very poor to say the least. If my memory serves me right she was out a few days the week after the holidays, the poor thing had a virus as she was so run down!!

rainbowtrout

John0000 wrote: »

Sometimes people need to take a day due to illness or god knows what and I have no problem with that at all! I do have a problem when two teachers get married during School time. I think it is a bit Irish. Maybe my judgement is clouded because I worked with a girl who was getting married and seemed quite gleeful telling people she or hubby to be wouldn't waste their summer holidays to get married. Same girl took a half day everyday up to the Friday when she got married and then day of the holidays had cover arranged it seemed. Her attitude towards her exam students who had projects due in was very poor to say the least. If my memory serves me right she was out a few days the week after the holidays, the poor thing had a virus as she was so run down!!

Who authorised all those half days?

John0000

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Who authorised all those half days?

Trying to remember but I think she was allowed sort it between herself and colleagues!

rainbowtrout

John0000 wrote: »

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Who authorised all those half days?

Trying to remember but I think she was allowed sort it between herself and colleagues!

If that’s the case then staff needed to start refusing her cover classes. I don’t think she’d get away with that in many schools