NFL Protest Discussion

batgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

As a matter of fact, based on your view of the Americans you know, I'd say that Europeans are more patriotic because they wouldn't accept somebody disrespecting the national anthem by kneeling. Well at least the large majority of Europeans that I know.

I don't particularly believe the intent is disrespect, highlighting institutional racism and kneeling because they think society can do better is showing immense respect for the nation and is a pretty symbolic gesture on the need for change.

Hazys

eagle eye wrote: »

As a matter of fact, based on your view of the Americans you know, I'd say that Europeans are more patriotic because they wouldn't accept somebody disrespecting the national anthem by kneeling. Well at least the large majority of Europeans that I know.

Patriotism has nothing to do with forcing somebody to do something. I'd think most Europeans understand what true freedom is unlike the right wing Americans who are like a real life South Park parody of "If you don't like freedom, you can get out!". Europeans understand that the freedom to protest is more important than your freedom to be offended. Peaceful protest whether you agree with the message or not is critical to a functioning democracy, if you can't peacefully protest then you are not a democracy but a dictatorship.

"Patriotism isn't about making everyone stand and salute the flag. Patriotism is about making this a country where everyone wants to." Jason Kander

Jolly Red Giant

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Not sure why you quoted me as your response has nothing to do about what I said.

Jaysus Toss - you really need to chill out - not everything I post is a slight against you.

TOss Sweep

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Not sure why you quoted me as your response has nothing to do about what I said.

Jaysus Toss - you really need to chill out - not everything I post is a slight against you.

Awe how cute you think I care about you that much. Find it hilarious you jump to the chill response when I was merely asking you why you quoted me given none of your post was in response to mine. Hilarious at best chief.

Billy86

So I see Trump has pi*ssed off a lot of US veterans by not leaving the flag at half mast for US war hero John McCain's death for a moment longer than was legally required. Almost as if he were using the flag to protest someone who had the gall to criticise him...

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/403826-veteran-groups-tell-trump-to-lower-flag-to-half-staff-to-honor-mccain

Veterans groups are calling on President Trump to lower the White House flag to half-staff to honor Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who died on Saturday night of brain cancer.

“It’s outrageous that the White House would mark American hero John McCain’s death with a two-sentence tweet, making no mention of his heroic and inspiring life,” Joe Chenelly, the executive director of veterans advocacy group AMVETS, said in a statement.

Yeah, he really does "care about the troops and the flag, folks". I wonder what his anti-protest supporters will make of th--- oh they'll just shut up and do as they're told as always.

eagle eye

How do you make that post out to relating to the NFL?

Billy86

Because unless we see millions of Trump supporters heavily criticise him for this and threaten to not vote for his party in November (if I recall it was 80% plus of Republicans who were against the protests on most polls), it shows proves that those giving out about protesting don't actually care about 'respecting the flag' or 'respecting our troops' in this sense (as kneeling is permitted in the US flag code), they just care about the blacks getting uppity and/or simply cultishly do whatever they're told to.

Trump has already proven himself a hypocrite on that matter, but sure that was expected. This is what the NFL has cowed to.

EDIT: Oh look, that didn't take long! Some of the cults Senators are getting in line already and saying it's McCain's fault for criticising The Leader.

https://twitter.com/KilloughCNN/status/1034184630063251456

j8wk2feszrnpao

Billy86 wrote: »

Because unless we see millions of Trump supporters heavily criticise him for this and threaten to not vote for his party in November (if I recall it was 80% plus of Republicans who were against the protests on most polls), it shows proves that those giving out about protesting don't actually care about 'respecting the flag' or 'respecting our troops' in this sense (as kneeling is permitted in the US flag code), they just care about the blacks getting uppity and/or simply cultishly do whatever they're told to.

It might prove that some people don't care, but nothing else; it certainly doesn't cover everyone who is against it.

Billy86

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It might prove that some people don't care, but nothing else; it certainly doesn't cover everyone who is against it.

Can't say I agree there - if someone finds it disrespectful to see people adhering to the law and military flag code, how would they then not be disrespectful to see people purposely doing the absolute minimum legally required and nothing more when one of the US' best known war heroes (and I wasn't a big fan of McCain or the US' pro-war stance, but the guy was certainly that) dies, to the point that veterans associations were outraged over it?

Now if someone has an issue beyond claiming kneeling for the anthem is disrespectful to the flag or troops then fair enough depending on their reasoning, but I've barely seen a soul claim as much.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Billy86 wrote: »

Can't say I agree there

You are claiming that everyone who complains about the protest as "they just care about the blacks getting uppity and/or simply cultishly do whatever they're told to."
Way to label everyone that disagrees with you, even "the blacks" who don't agree with the protest. You haven't proven anything.

Billy86

munstermagic11 wrote: »

You are claiming that everyone who complains about the protest as "they just care about the blacks getting uppity and/or simply cultishly do whatever they're told to."
Way to label everyone that disagrees with you, even "the blacks" who don't agree with the protest. You haven't proven anything.

As I said, those claiming it is disrespectful to the flag/troops (which in my experience is almost everyone who have come out against the protests) should have issue with the McCain thing also... but will they? Have they? Doesn't look like it.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Billy86 wrote: »

As I said, those claiming it is disrespectful to the flag/troops (which in my experience is almost everyone who have come out against the protests) should have issue with the McCain thing also... but will they? Have they? Doesn't look like it.

Have they? I don't know, haven't conducted a poll on it myself.
Plus I don't think you are comparing like with like. Trump may very well be using the situation, but it's far more subtle and it's not an act against the flag itself; which is many peoples issue, rather than the message that Trump/kneelers are trying to send.
I mean I get your point, Trump not lowering the flag is a bit of a douche move. But that is Trump. He doesn't care.

Billy86

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Have they? I don't know, haven't conducted a poll on it myself.
Plus I don't think you are comparing like with like. Trump may very well be using the situation, but it's far more subtle and it's not an act against the flag itself; which is many peoples issue, rather than the message that Trump/kneelers are trying to send.
I mean I get your point, Trump not lowering the flag is a bit of a douche move. But that is Trump. He doesn't care.

I've barely seen any other reason given for being against the protests, have you? There were polls earlier in the thread, if memory serves it was about 90% of Republican voters who had issue with the protests vs 20% of Democrat voters.

If someone considers taking a knee for the anthem disrespectful to the flag/military, the whole thing with McCain the other day would have them outraged. Yet is hasn't, I've not heard a peep against it from Trump supporters and that is because they, like he, do not care. "Respect the troops" is just a convenient excuse for them to hide behind that this has shown up, as tends to be the case.

So if it's not about respecting the flag or troops, and good as no other reason has been given, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they're just doing as they're told - as per usual.

As for those who had issue with both, that's acceptable. I disagree with them, but at least they have a semblance on consistency on the matter.

Jolly Red Giant

I like this take on the attitude of NFL teams to the protests -

j8wk2feszrnpao

Billy86 wrote: »

I've barely seen any other reason given for being against the protests, have you?

I’ve only seen the “disrespect to the flag” reason.
Disrespecting the flag probably isn’t on the same level as Trump disrespecting McCain to the vast majority of Americans (hence the lack of any real outcry). I don’t see the two as being comparable.

Just as I ignore Trump when it comes to his opinion on the Flag issue, I ignore him on the McCain issue. He is a self centered despicable person who is only focused on himself; I just hope there is decent candidates against him, cause it’s going to be a long 2.5 years.

eagle eye

Billy86 wrote: »

I've barely seen any other reason given for being against the protests, have you?

Yes, football fans who don't care about current affairs. They just want to talk about football and watch football. Guys who work hard all week and this is their fun time and they don't want it disrupted.

Podge_irl

God forbid people have to momentarily recognise and engage with social issues that affect others that they are trying desperately to ignore. The poor petals.

j8wk2feszrnpao

TOss Sweep wrote: »

How many of them stop and stand for the flag? From experience very few. I have been to many a friends house or cookout or bar and I can tell you very few stop and stand for the anthem hear and in fact some will actually talk and give out about those taking in knee and ironically they are now disrespecting the flag.

But isn’t there a difference between doing it in their own back garden compared to a public stage? A difference between protesting towards the flag compared to just regular chatting?

Don’t get me wrong; while I thought the protest would get a backlash and was poorly directed, they of course have a valid cause (and of course have the right to protest in this manner).
I’d prefer if they removed the whole military/nationalistic stuff from the sport, but that isn’t going to happen.

To me it’s just a flag. But I know from visiting the US a number of times that it’s of significant importance to many. The topic has been about the flag/disrespect/honor/military.... rather than what the protest is actually about; which is kinda what I presumed would happen.

Podge_irl

Has there ever been a social/political protest people didn't either object to or deliberately misinterpret?

Nike with an interesting ad...

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/09/03/nike-unveils-new-ad-featuring-colin-kaepernick/

JaMarcus

Deleted User wrote: »

Nike with an interesting ad...

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/09/03/nike-unveils-new-ad-featuring-colin-kaepernick/

Genius marketing.

It'll be a feature in practically every media outlet in the country and will generate discussion, and that's exactly what they want.

j8wk2feszrnpao

JaMarcus wrote: »

Genius marketing.

#JustBurnIt trending.
Not sure burning Nike gear is a great idea when it could be donated.
Nike has probably done the figures and reckon it'll benefit them.

Foxtrol

munstermagic11 wrote: »

#JustBurnIt trending.
Not sure burning Nike gear is a great idea when it could be donated.
Nike has probably done the figures and reckon it'll benefit them.

Charity is obviously preferable but it gives me so much joy to watch idiots burn/cut clothes that they've already paid for. Truly owning Nike and 'the libs'.

ELM327

Foxtrol wrote: »

Charity is obviously preferable but it gives me so much joy to watch idiots burn/cut clothes that they've already paid for. Truly owning Nike and 'the libs'.

I'm sure it's not the burning of existing products that will hit Nike as much as the lack of future sales.

Billy86

A member of the US Congress has stepped down after slipping up telling us what she really feels behind the "support the flag and troops" facade.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/republican-racist-black-nfl-players-kneeling-protest-facebook-baboons-carla-malony-pennsylvania-a8521096.html

In one post, Ms Malony described American footballers taking part in the gesture to protest cases of police brutality in the US as “over paid ignorant blacks”, suggesting they should “go to Africa”.

A Republican official in Pennsylvania has resigned after it emerged she called black NFL players protesting the national anthem “baboons” in a Facebook rant.

...

When another Facebook user commented: “Go Steelers,” in reference to the Pittsburgh Steelers NFL franchise, the GOP activist launched into another racially-charged tirade.

“Steelers are now just as bad as the rest of the over paid baboons. You respect your flag, country and our national atnthem (sic),” she wrote.

“Stop watching, or going to a game and paying for over priced food, water and tickets. Lets see how the baboons get paid when white people stop paying their salaries.”

ELM327

Billy86 wrote: »

A member of the US Congress has stepped down after slipping up telling us what she really feels behind the "support the flag and troops" facade.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/republican-racist-black-nfl-players-kneeling-protest-facebook-baboons-carla-malony-pennsylvania-a8521096.html

You just can't say those things anymore.
I mean she has a point, they are overpaid crybabies who should get on with what they are being (over)paid to do... but you're not allowed insult the blacks anymore.

Billy86

eagle eye wrote: »

Yes, football fans who don't care about current affairs. They just want to talk about football and watch football. Guys who work hard all week and this is their fun time and they don't want it disrupted.

You should then have huge issue with Trump, yet again, bringing politics into sport to deflect from all that has been coming out recently: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/aug/21/donald-trump-anthem-espn-criticism-nfl-kneeling-players

Your President is ruining your game for you, you should take action.

Billy86

ELM327 wrote: »

You just can't say those things anymore.
I mean she has a point, they are overpaid crybabies who should get on with what they are being (over)paid to do... but you're not allowed insult the blacks anymore.

The thing is, they are getting on with doing what they're paid to do - play football. And most of them are really good at it. The NFL on the other hand are guilty of what you are saying, as they are preventing some of these guys like Kaepernick from playing football for deciding to respectfully, peacefully and quietly protest during the national anthem and not for anything performance related.

The issue the anti-protesters have is not with disrespecting troops or the flag as they claim, unless they have issue with their President's constant disrespecting of said troops (and I've yet to see his fanbase get up in arms over that). It is not with bringing politics into sport unless they have had issue with the repeated times their President has done so in order to deflect from the increasingly bad press he is receiving (and I've yet to see his fanbase get up in arms over that).

I have not seen much of any other reason given by them... so I don't see what their issue is. It's almost as if a lot of them either do not actually know what their issue with the protests is besides 'the man with the (R) beside his name said so', or a lot of them don't want to say what their issue with it really, actually is.

Foxtrol

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm sure it's not the burning of existing products that will hit Nike as much as the lack of future sales.

As has been mentioned they've clearly done the math on this and it fits in with their brand history. Most consumers won't care and for the few who will be 'triggered' and boycott they are likely not their target market for their high end goods. I haven't seen one post from someone damaging anything that didn't look like it was years old or bought in a discount store. What they gain in high end purchases should easily outweigh those few pairs of sport socks.

On the positive side for them Kaepernick jersey sales stayed strong even when he didn't have a team and this helps them compete with the other brands who have brand ambassadors the likes of Curry and Jay-Z (pretty sure have both publicly supported Kaepernick).

It is a pretty big slap in the face to the NFL seeing as they recently signed a deal with Nike for the next 8 years. Nike will be giving them cash but I presume they'd prefer not to have this rubbed in their face.

ELM327

Billy86 wrote: »

The thing is, they are getting on with doing what they're paid to do - play football. And most of them are really good at it. The NFL on the other hand are guilty of what you are saying, as they are preventing some of these guys like Kaepernick from playing football for deciding to respectfully, peacefully and quietly protest during the national anthem and not for anything performance related.

The issue the anti-protesters have is not with disrespecting troops or the flag as they claim, unless they have issue with their President's constant disrespecting of said troops (and I've yet to see his fanbase get up in arms over that). It is not with bringing politics into sport unless they have had issue with the repeated times their President has done so in order to deflect from the increasingly bad press he is receiving (and I've yet to see his fanbase get up in arms over that).

I have not seen much of any other reason given by them... so I don't see what their issue is. It's almost as if a lot of them either do not actually know what their issue with the protests is besides 'the man with the (R) beside his name said so', or a lot of them don't want to say what their issue with it really, actually is.

It's interesting.

No one is stopping kapernick playing football except kapernick. He made himself more of a nuisance than his talent compensates for. No team will tolerate that amount of circus for a mediocre starter or high level backup.


Unless you subscribe to the conspiracy theorist view that every team has agreed not to sign him, in which case the conspiracy theories forum is thataway =>