Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260521#Comment_121260521

you said most of the wrc was disused since the 70s, which is not correct.

no point in shifting the goalposts to north of claremorris now when you made a different statement and it was pointed out that you were incorrect on the rest of it south of claremorris.

very few locals are going to go out in the height of winter to use a greenway, it's just not going to happen no matter how much people will like them to do so, they can exercise even more locally or chances are that they will just take up a jymn membership instead as they can exercise out of the cold.

so we would be spending money on a long distance greenway that benefits hardly anyone instead of a railway that can be used by anyone all year round.

if the areas served were areas of outstanding natural beauty i could see the benefit, but the reality is the areas from athenry to sligo along the wrc just don't fit that bill.

better to build greenways in kerry and places that have sceenery to offer and will attract cyclists and walkers who are there to visit that sceenery.

stating that hospitality jobs pay rubbish wages and that people deserve better jobs is not sneering, it's just fact and actually wanting to improve the lives of people.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260590#Comment_121260590

You're right, this is better

Consonata

Let's just do both and put an end to this sad stone throwing lol.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260617#Comment_121260617

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260521#Comment_121260521

Creating a direct train link between Galway and Westport would funnel tonnes of tourists through Athenry, Tuam, Claremorris and Castlebar. Obviously all of those towns are already connected to the network, except Tuam, but this would be a new link/route, which could become a major tourist trail.

These new trips would support businesses in the area, creating and supporting jobs. A Greenway would do similar, but let's be honest (I'm from that area), it rains (mists) an awful lot and it's a relatively boring landscape.

noelfirl

Why is it on one hand, a Greenway would elicit no interest and little use, passing through nothingness as it seemingly does, whereas in exactly the same setting, a railway would bring "tonnes of tourists" and give rise to some sort of "major" tourist trail? In the same vein, the greenway would only bring insecure "poverty jobs"* whereas everyone is expected to believe the railway will somehow lead to the genesis of some form of Rhine-Ruhr megapolitan industrial heartland in the West.

There's some serious cognitive dissonance that goes on in relation to this specific piece of infrastructure.

*an incredibly aloof and callous characterisation by the by.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260590#Comment_121260590

What I said was "Most of the closed WRC has been unused since the mid 70s". This factually correct. The majority of the WRC north of Athenry (i.e. the closed part I referred to) has been officially closed since the mid 70s. I never mentioned north of Claremorris and I don't have to move any goalposts. Hopefully you are reasonable enough to admit that you are wrong on this.

Greenways aren't just about sceenery. This may come as a shock to you but people walk and cycle outdoors all year round in this country, our winters are mild compared to many other countries. Any field sports clubs with a walkingtrack generally have good numbers of people walking despite it being laps of a pitch and often no sceenery. There is big demand for such facilities and greenways provide huge benefits relative to their small initial and maintenance costs. People join gyms because to use the equipment/weights and/or classes, not exercising out of the cold probably doesn't even register as a reason why most people join gyms.

Your issue with hospitality jobs is extremely odd. Plenty of people earn good money in hospitality, many also earn enough to have a decent life. It may not be for you but it suits plenty of others. It absolutely is sneering to say that a hospitality workers need new jobs to improve their lives, you are clearly looking down on them.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260673#Comment_121260673

It isn't as simple as "just do both". Reinstating rail services will cost several hundred million € and all assessments have found the payback not to justify the expense. Journey times would be long, capacity limited due to single track and trains would be diesel. Our rail network needs huge investment, why should such investment go to WRC when more populous parts of the country have inadequate rail services? If the motivation is environmental, focus has to be on where demand is.

A greenway on the other hand will cost a couple of percent of the rail cost, can be delivered much faster and are proven to provide real benefits to people in the locality.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260903#Comment_121260903

trains traversed athenry to claremorris up until the late 90s, these would have been specials and freight so still ultimately trains.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260885#Comment_121260885

Just to be clear, I mentioned tonnes of tourists but I certainly don't see tourism jobs as poverty jobs. I believe in the long run a railway would provide more tourist income than a Greenway. Although it's just an opinion. It can also support denser sustainable growth in towns, as Ireland generally moves away from one off housing. We've a lot to go there but putting towns on the rail network is important, and would generate economic growth.

No one here has suggested a Rhine-Ruhr megapolitan industrial heartland. I might suggest your own view is misguided here by a bias against the rail...

I certainly consider a direct rail link between Dublin-Galway-Westport-Dublin as a major trip generator and tourist trail. It's not unfounded to assume the small towns inbetween would benefit from that.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260958#Comment_121260958

I fully agree with 90% of this. WRC phase 2+3 (Athenry-Claremorris) should not be unfairly prioritised above other projects. It looks like we'll start properly investing in rail in the near to medium term, like the motorways in 00s. Hopefully it won't (and it certainly shouldn't) be a case of this project or that project.

I've posted previously on the so called "Reports". I can repost this if you like? EY made fundamental significant errors in their assessment and showed a clear bias against the project. If you disagree with my assessment of their report, then please challenge the points I raised on that. No one did when I posted about that.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156688#Comment_121156688

@Pete_Cavan here's my review of that EY report (also attached). If you disagree with my conclusion that EY were flawed in their assessment, please challenge my points. If not, please stop referring to this report to conclude the railway is uneconomical.

WRC Phase 2 and 3 - EY Review.pdf

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261497#Comment_121261497

I know that rail supporters love to discredit the EY report but it's not the only report to have reached such conclusions. Even the AIRR doesn't recommend reopening north of Claremorris, despite advocating for Portadown - Mullingar! It has €400 - 600m just for Athenry - Claremorris.

We can even go back as far as the 2005 McCann Report if you want. It estimated a cost of €75m to reopen Athenry - Ennis. The actual cost a few years later was €106m, a 40% increase. If we take McCann's cost for Claremorris - Collooney (€197m) and increase it by 40% we are at €275m, then allow for cost increases between 2009 and whenever construction might start. Once completed, we can also use Limerick - Foynes as a real world, current benchmark.

The faffing about the EY report is a convenient distraction for some but irrelevant overall. We know it'll cost an obscene amount, the existing network at either end is insufficient with not enough being done to address that, and that there is not a good enough payback.Whatever about Athenry - Claremorris, there simply isn't a case to be made for reopening Claremorris - Collooney for a long time. We have got a least half a century of more necessary rail investment projects to be getting on with. In the meantime, greenway makes perfect sense. Again, we have real world examples of the benefits of greenways (and they go beyond just tourists and get used all year round).

Rather than constantly trying to discredit or simply ignore reports which don't suit their narrative, rail supporters have to come up with a credible case for WRC. Why should taxpayers money be invested in WRC, ahead of other projects with a stronger business case (we have lots of them)? WRC is at least a decade away from reopening even if it was approved tomorrow, why should a low cost greenway be ignored in the meantime?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261548#Comment_121261548

Just to be clear, phase 2 is considered Athenry-Tuam and phase 3 is Tuam-Claremorris. That whole section should be considered a single phase. Can you please reconsider your response based on that. I am not supportive of Claremorris-Colooney.

Calling out clear bias in a report that is regularly pulled up (for your side of the argument) is absolutely legitimate. My main issue is on the "Benefit" side of the equation, not the cost side.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261051#Comment_121261051

The closed WRC is 126km long. The section north of Claremorris is 74km long and has been closed since the mid 70s. The facts reflect exactly what I said,.

Again was that "most of the closed WRC has been unused since the mid 70s", lest you try to suggest that I said something else or claim I am trying to move the goalpost. You saying "trains traversed athenry to claremorris up until the late 90s" doesn't disprove what I said and is you trying to move the goalposts.

I'm not sure if its your comprehension of the English language or basic maths that is your issue here. Either way, you make yourself look for stupid. Hopefully you'll admit you were wrong or at least just quietly drop it and move on like your "poverty wage jobs" comment.

loco_scolo

Omg there are so many things in that report which are absolute nonsense. Every time I look at it I find more.

Example - Property Value:

They throw in +€10m benefit due to Property Value increases. That's €500 per household along the route (18,000 households). Even if that was €10k for 4,000 households, you have a benefit of +€40m.

They also include €90m of additional capex investment out to 2056, starting with €10m in 2031, another €40m between 2040 and 2049. If €40m was being spent again in 2040, that would need its own CBA. It doesn't make any sense to beef up the capex that much for a CBA analysis on simply reopening the line.

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261548#Comment_121261548

I read this and it only makes me think ‘It will never cost less to build the WRC than it would today’. Phase 1 is seeing significant increases in passengers, bucking the national trend. It was a tough investment at the time owing to the financial downturn, but I think it looks good now.

Why must we always wait until everything else is in place before we move ahead with building adequate infrastructure? Our capital airport with 34m annual passengers isn’t served by rail. Galway City doesn’t have a ring road or any alternate transport solutions in place. Our second and third cities are not connected by motorway. Double rail tracking. Progress in these projects is now being suffocated by the very developments and populace that we think are required for these projects to proceed. (eg. Dublin airport needs to go underground adding astonishing cost)

We’re a cash rich country, we should be investing in infrastructure projects all over the country and not in some linear one by one fashion.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261828#Comment_121261828

The same goes for any other rail project. Inflation alone ensures that. It's the same for all capital projects. However take the Dublin Navan rail line for example. Are you honestly saying that the WRC ranks above this? Navan has a half hourly bus service to Dublin plus the building of the M3. You can't get much clearer when it comes to demand. Bray to Greystones is another example of a line in need of investment. That's just two examples.

The country has money but it doesn't have unlimited money. Money needs to be put towards projects that have the best return on investment. There are lots of projects with better ROI for the country than the WRC for rail projects alone never mind the countless other things money could be spent on.

This thread alone is an example of how bad an investment the WRC is. The Navan Dublin railway line doesn't have a big thread because the demand for it is self evident. There is no need to argue over report semantics. The same goes for plenty of other rail projects.

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261964#Comment_121261964

It’s curious. I ended my post that you quoted advocating that projects shouldn’t be done in a linear, one by one fashion but you jump straight into prioritisation.

Id expect that if you were to list Irelands top 50 infrastructure opportunities and then ranked them economically the top 8 would be in Dublin and it’s commuter belt and the west and north west wouldn’t get a look in.

That might sit well with some people, but an unbalanced strategy like this only suffocates Dublin further - people and economies follow the money and investment. It also accelerates the economic decay that has lead to the west and northwest of Ireland being classified as a ‘lagging region’ by the EU.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261575#Comment_121261575

Increasing private property values is not a justification for the taxpayer to spend money.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261828#Comment_121261828

While it is true to say ‘It will never cost less to build the WRC than it would today’, the same applies to practically every other potential project. We obviously can't build everything now, or even over the next 10 years, there are too many constraints (funding, labour, planning system, regional development, etc.).

We need to prioritise. For some reason, WRC gets pushed as a priority, even against projects which could deliver more benefits for the reason. This attitude actually prevents us from delivering the infrastructure we need.

A greenway on the line could be delivered in a much shorter time for a fraction of the price and get the benefits from that. Instead nothing will happen while we wait for €500m+ for a train service when a bus would suffice.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262231#Comment_121262231

The idea that Dublin should not get infrastructure which comparable European cities of its size got 50+ years ago because it will "suffocate Dublin" is laughable.

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262314#Comment_121262314

It’s not. There are two different lenses here.

Should Dublin get adequate infrastructure: Of course

Should Dublin exclusively get all infrastructure capital investment, which I think is what happens if you prioritise national projects one by one: No.

If Dublin were to get all the investment, then it would logically get all the jobs, then that’s where people will move to and yes - the suffocation continues.

Dublin didn’t get its investment 50 years ago, so everyone else can take a seat?

Remember, I’m responding to the theme of ranking and prioritisation

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260673#Comment_121260673

Exactly. The same cycle of arguments over and over when there is room for both pieces of infrastructure. Other countries would just build the damn things side by side and very little would be said about it.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262295#Comment_121262295

I don't speak for everyone who supports the WRC, but I'm don't think anyone expects WRC to be prioritised immediately. I certainly don't.

I'm fully supportive of a Greenway being built while the country figures out how to build these projects faster. They can't even get a few bus corridors through the planning system...

And don't bring up old reports to back up your arguments, then immediately dismiss other people for faffing, because they question the validity of those reports. You do that without responding to the glaring errors that are pointed out. Then dismiss the reports as irrelevant. Extremely arrogant and rude.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262378#Comment_121262378

There are a lot more deserving rail projects in Galway and Mayo ahead of the WRC. You don't need to focus on Dublin

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262289#Comment_121262289

I tend to agree, however it is only one measure, of many, which was considered in the CBA. Since it was included in the report by EY, I assume it is normally considered in a CBA.

The whole point of a CBA is assessing the economic value produced by an investment. Increased property values is a small piece of that puzzle, not the main driver by far.

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262792#Comment_121262792

I’m certainly on the record on this thread saying Galway to Athenry double tracking would be required before Athenry to Claremorris would be re-instated, if that’s what you’re alluding to.

L1011

Is it not 10m uplift in property *tax* due to increased values over a specific timespan?

I don't believe property value increases are counted in CBAs at all.

Geuze

And doubling Galway to Athenry would allow more trains to Limerick also? Is that correct?

4/5 a day is poor.

To me, doubling Galway to Athenry helps everybody.

• separate IC and local trains
• new stations in Renmore and Roscam
• more services to Oranmore and Athenry for commuters and students
• better for Ennis and Limerick trains
• More trains to LK?
• Makes it easier to run trains to Tuam
• more flexibility / less delays

Is it that somebody needs to convince Clare, GY and Mayo local cllrs and TD that doubling Galway to Athenry helps everybody?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261548#Comment_121261548

actually rail supporters don't need to do anything, the case for the WRC was shown to be sound years ago, the only reason we didn't get phases 2 and 3 open was the recession.

what is effectively a minny motor way is not really low cost, you are not going to get a real greenway which is effectively a blue way realy which would be low enough cost.

even so, there are more important areas for investment in cycle infrastructure such as the major towns and cities.

that is i suspect why you won't get a green way, because in truth the amount that would benefit from it in the areas is low compared to the journey opportunities a regional railway can bring.