Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244807#Comment_121244807

Fair point. I don't know if Irish Rail/The State owns the route or whether it just has the right of way to have a rail line through private land. Either way it would seem necessary to be able to maintain those rights if a greenway was to use the route for a set period of time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244974#Comment_121244974

That's wider than I would have thought. Seems you're right.

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244974#Comment_121244974

I gather bridges and crossings would be the bigger challenges here. Is it worth investing in these things for a temporary greenway or would additional spend be needed in anticipation of a future railway in parallel?

Similarly, this greenway would terminate in Athenry. As things stand it won’t be connected to the Dublin - Galway greenway which is expected to route through Loughrea. Should further investment be made to make this connection. These investments start to add up for such a ‘temporary’ measure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244807#Comment_121244807

Exact same situation as all other greenways using rail lines

Where the lines are in IE ownership, the line is leased for use as a greenway. Conditions are built into the lease stating the line can be used as a greenway until IE decide to reactivate it at which point the greenway is removed from the line.

Now what would likely happen is a new greenway would be built alongside as it would have built up market share, employment, visitor numbers, economic benefit etc so the business case would already be proven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245344#Comment_121245344

If connectivity was a condition, no greenway would ever be built.

Connectivity can always be added at a later date and indeed, having a greenway in place would provide further justification for additional connectivity and investment

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245698#Comment_121245698

I agree it’s not a condition, but it must surely be a consideration particularly if funding is to be invested in a temporary solution. A temporary greenway spur?

On your initial response, does Western Rail Trail have a proposal for the greenway option? For example, do they have a proposal that includes whether they’d have a bridge over the N63 or simply a safe crossing?

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246243#Comment_121246243

I couldn't see them building any new bridges for greenways due to the cost. The only bridges and underpasses for greenways I've seen have been where road improvements are already taking place but there may be cases I'm not aware of.

Usually cyclists just have to dismount at roads and walk across but for wider roads or dual carriageways the greenway probably has to terminate due to safety issues.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246243#Comment_121246243

Its at feasibility study stage

https://www.tuamherald.ie/2021/09/29/feasibility-study-on-quiet-man-greenway-gets-underway/

Note, this is the Athenry to Tuam section only afaik.

The case for the greenway was raised in the Dail today. The Taoiseach agrees that both (greenway and rail) are possible on the line and will raise it with ER

https://twitter.com/ciarancannon/status/1714294623009636620

Westernview

Sounds positive all round. When he said the greenway and rail are 'not mutually exclusive' its not fully clear if he meant greenway first to be replaced in time by rail or greenway and then both side by side. Hopefully the latter.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121251762#Comment_121251762

Including the phrasing "we know how long these things take" would indicate to me that it would be greenway first. A greenway would come out of separate funding than a railway, which would have to compete with all other rail projects and would be de-prioritised in relation to almost any other rail project. A greenway would be cheaper and quicker to build. It could be made even cheaper again by adopting an Athlone-Mullingar solution where the existing rails are not removed.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254731#Comment_121254731

It would definitely be greenway first. I probably wasn't clear in what I said - What I meant was would it end up as rail eventually (after replacing the greenway) or would the 2 exist side by side.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255298#Comment_121255298

I don't know for sure but going off the precedent of once people have something it's difficult/impossible to take it back off them, I would imagine that every effort would be made to keep the Greenway in place once we get around to putting in the railway, which I can't imagine would happen until the middle of the next decade - despite what Sinn Fein would have people believe. As was pointed out in another thread, the AIRR still envisages single track between Athlone and Athenry until at least 2040.

Of course north of Claremorris it's a no-brainer. The rail lines will be removed because there will be no railway going in on the existing alignment ever.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255561#Comment_121255561

Once the greenway goes in, the business case for retaining it would be rock solid. However, that does not mean it would prevent the return of rail, it would just mean the greenway gets shoved off the the side when new rails get laid.

kirk.

I've heard that said more than once by officials

They've no objection to the other knowing it'll probably never happen once they get their preferred Greenway or Rail option

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255742#Comment_121255742

First of all thanks for the info and links from Monday - at face value I don’t see an issue with a greenway in the interim but that doubt of ‘once it’s there there will be a lobby to leave it there and find somewhere else for a railway’ still holds.

If I said something like “Once the railway line is reinstated the business case for retaining it would be rock solid” I’d imagine you’d have at least a mild objection to it. Is part of the solution here defining success criteria? If a greenway were to be put in place what are the success markers required for it being retained, kept alongside or removed altogether when the time comes for rail to come back?

Hotblack Desiato

A greenway doesn't have large ongoing running and maintenance costs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257780#Comment_121257780

As I said a greenway on a IE line operates on a conditional lease.

Moving it to the side when the line needs to be relaid would not be a big deal for anyone.

I've walked and cycled beside operational lines all my life, not a big deal

As for defining success, usage numbers and local employment gains (services like cafes, restaurants, accommodation etc) would be 2 prime indicators. We've seen these gains at many greenways around the country already

As for objections to the greenway being moved, I wouldn't have one and I doubt many would. The greenway would still be ther3, just moved a few feet

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258052#Comment_121258052

From my point of view, and I’d imagine others in favour of rail, Brendan Quinn and Ciaran Cannon are not just Pro-Greenway, their rhetoric in recent years has been highly Anti-Rail. In a post on the QMG Facebook page Cannon said there shouldn’t be a red cent spent on rail on the route over the next 50 years (I’ve tried finding this post again, has he deleted it?)

So, it while it seems logical that there would be no issue, and I obviously recognise Cannon was in the Dail this week advocating for both, the doubt is still there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258308#Comment_121258308

I'm pretty sure the position has always been to make use of it ASAP as a greenway until rail is being implemented then move over.

Nobody cares if it becomes a rail line and a greenway, everyone cares about it being left idle for another few decades when there's immediate gains sitting there to be taken

Westernview

Regardless of the motives of Cannon and Quinn it seems there are 2 options if both the greenway and rail are to be ultimately accommodated,

1 - Locate greenway along the existing rails and move to the side once the rail construction commences. Cheaper and quicker as a short term measure as the ground along the actual lines is probably more consistent and level than that further to the sides. I presume the old rails could be left in place for the greenway?

2 - Position greenway in its eventual intended location parallel to the rails, thus leaving the original line available for development and seeming to avoid any conflicts down the line. But it would probably involve more cost upfront and would be difficult to engineer and futureproof from further changes without the rail design having been completed. May end up getting changed again anyway at the time of the rail construction in the event of gradient adjustments, alignment changes and requirements for working room etc.

As I mentioned the other day it would be very difficult to choose the best approach without having some ballpark idea of when the rail work would commence. I don't think any timeframe has been given for completing the schedule of priorities following the AIRR so I don't think the government will commit even to the greenway until some decisions are made on that.

Drifter100

Watching and listening to the media today there seems to be a lot of anger from homes and businesses in Midleton and the other towns in East Cork to suffer flooding

They are all singing the same song..... How come there is money and a priority for greenways such as Youghal / Cobh Junction but the flood defence gates and walls are forgotten

Hard to disagree with them. Maybe out priorities are wrong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258540#Comment_121258540

The current rail line is good for nothing and needs to be fully replaced including ballast and likely some underpinning in places where there's degradation, regardless of a greenway.

For a greenway to be implemented now, rails would need to lifted and a suitable surface laid, that's about all. We're talking about cyclists and walkers so nothing much more is needed. The existing ballast would serve as a foundation and would need little additional works.

Once rail is being implemented, you extend the width of the surface and lay them side by side.

To do side by side now would be a massive waste of time and funding as it would need to be ripped out for the more significant rail works to follow.

Now if someone wants to pay for side by side now, lash ahead, but purely from an economic standpoint there's is no logical reasoning to go that route.

Personally I don't give a toss which option is chosen. Just choose one and get on with it. The current situation is of benefit to nobody

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258663#Comment_121258663

I know the rails would have to be taken out for the new line but I just wondered if they needed to come out for the interim greenway option. I think we agree something should be put in place soon to make use of it, especially as there seems to be room for both so there should be no big conflict and future changes will remain viable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258631#Comment_121258631

I don't think the priorities are wrong. I can understand the frustration with the issue not be addressed but greenways contribute to tourism and peoples health and wellbeing. The flooding issues must be tackled but life must go on elsewhere too. Crossmolina has been waiting for years for flood relief measures but cancelling greenways won't speed it up in any way.

Similarly I still hear people complaining about money going to sports and leisure and saying it should go to the health service. They can't see the role of sport in keeping people healthy and reducing the pressure on the health service.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258754#Comment_121258754

I know the rails would have to be taken out for the new line but I just wondered if they needed to come out for the interim greenway option. I think we agree something should be put in place soon to make use of it, especially as there seems to be room for both so there should be no big conflict and future changes will remain viable.

Honestly scratching my head as to how you would lay a suitable surface over rotting rails and sleepers because thats exactly what you would have to do for a large portion of the line if the greenway is to meet national min standards of 3-4 meters width given the existing widths available. Maybe there's a way to do it but I can't, for the life of me, think of why anyone would do that

It would be akin to laying new tiles in your house on rotten floorboards

There is no need to retain the existing rails/sleepers if a greenway is laid in the interim as its all for the bin anyway.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258812#Comment_121258812

I only said it as quick way of getting a greenway in place. They can do it either way IMO. I'm sure if you were to lay 300-400m deep of fill along the line over the required width it would suffice for 10 years at the very least. If the sleepers and rails are still present over 40 years after closure they are not going to disappear for some time. So the comparision with rotten floorboards in a house isn't the best analogy.

Otherwise a lot of extra time and cost will be needed upfront lifting the lines wheres that could be done when the major works are carried out later on at rail laying stage when significant contruction plant is mobilised.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258910#Comment_121258910

Thats possibly an option. I doubt they would go that route, but who knows

Pete_Cavan

The works required to reinstate rail services will be enormous. The civil engineering works alone to reopen Limerick - Foynes is costing €65m and that's for basic freight only (no passenger) services and for a line which which was in use up to 2000. Most of the closed WRC has been unused since the mid 70s. The works to reopen it would disrupt the greenway no matter where it was possitioned (side or middle) as they'd be so extensive. You'd have to pretty much rebuild the greenway after regardless. Ironically, the presence of the greenway would actually reduce the cost of reinstating rail in the future by providing access and workspace for plant, etc.

Basically, none of these ifs and buts actually matter. The greenway just needs to be built, there are no negative consequences from it, only positive (unless you gain support and relevance by spoofing about reopening the railway but only applies to a few individuals).

Seeing as the AIRR didn't find a case for reopening north of Claremorris (despite supposedly finding a case for reopening everything else), we can take it that there is no case and won't be for a long time. Calling for a full reopening to Sligo is tantamount to saying there should be no reopening for rail and the route should rot. If people were serious about rail for the region, they'd be advocating for a wider assessment of options, outside of using solely the historical alignment.

For example, north of Tubbercurry there is less than 10km as the crow flies to the Sligo - Dublin mainline. This is a shorter distance than following the historical route to Collooney which was built to a low standard originally, is riddled with road crossings and only exists as an overgrown ditch now anyway. I'I'be confident the new build would actually be cheaper, certainly over time when maintenance is considered.

Westernview

Not sure who you are replying to there. We have been discussing the Tuam-Claremorris section not further on to Sligo. I'm pretty sure Varadkar was only speaking about this section in his reply to Ciaran Cannon as well.

Of course reinstating rail services are costly, especially relative to greenways. It's major public infrastructure after all but that isnt a reason not to do it or invest in the future of the country.

The main thing is that there is a 25-30m wide wayleave between the towns largely intact and that gives you the options. I think that's a fantastic thing and we are fortunate that the route has been preserved. If it was only wide enough to accommodate either the greenway or rail track then I'm sure conflict and suspicion between various groups would soon get very nasty. But thankfully that's not the case so lets get on with doing something.

But again as I keep saying it comes back to what the priorities are. Varadkar hinted that the greenway might be sensible until the rail comes but is that what Eamon Ryan will say? He has indicated a few months ago that he isn't against the idea of the 2 side by side but whether he will let the greenway in first on its own remains to be seen. Until any cabinet friction is ironed out nothing will happen unfortunately.

https://connachttribune.ie/transport-minister-not-ruling-out-two-options-working-side-by-side-at-a-cost/

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259212#Comment_121259212

this is untrue, most of the WRC was used up until the mid to late 90s.

the works to reinstate the line are no bigger or worse then the works to reinstate any closed line to modern standards, they really aren't a big deal.

to be honest i see no positives from a greenway here, there is nothing worth seeing for tourists, and the people deserve better then the mostly poverty wage jobs that it might bring.

a railway at least benefits people all year round and will bring them to places which will employ them and pay a decent wage.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121259370#Comment_121259370

North of Claremorris has been closed since 1975 so most of the currently unopened WRC has indeed been closed since the mid 70s. It was a low quality build with an extensive number of level crossings. Even 20 years ago, reports were estimating costs for Claremorris to Collooney as double Ennis to Athenry €/km.

Greenways aren't just for tourists, they are a great asset for people living locally. They provide a safe place for all people to get outside and exercise. A greenway could be provided comparitively much quicker and cheaper, it would be of more benefit than waiting another couple of decades for the government to put up several hundred million € to reinstate the rail line.

Given your sneering at "poverty wage jobs" in hospitality, I'm not sure what the decent wage jobs are which the WRC would allow people to access within a reasonable commuting time. Into Galway would be a long journey time from anywhere north of Tuam and the single track line from Athenry doesn't have capacity for direct services anyway.