Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

seamus

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

Well, aftercare for a start. Possibility of termination in complicated circumstances, like Savita's case for example.

Terminations over the 12 week limit will only be in exceptional circumstances and as such will be fully covered by the state.

gormdubhgorm

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

A lot of your list I would agree with.

How do you feel about abortion in the case where a woman is pregnant by rape?

This and the Savita case were the real difficulties for me.

Those reasons nearly swayed me into a no vote, but because it was legal abortion for all with no exceptions was a bridge too far for me.


The rape itself is obviously going to be terribly traumatic, would a full term pregnancy push the woman over the edge so they would take thier own life?

In that case I think it would depend on how the welfare of the woman would be effected.
Abortion may be the only option in that scenario.

If those type of exceptions were placed in a draft idea of legislation before the vote I may have even voted yes.

It was not as simple as a yes or no vote for me at all.

7aubzxk43m2sni

seamus wrote: »

Terminations over the 12 week limit will only be in exceptional circumstances and as such will be fully covered by the state.

Sure, but it answers the question of "what was the point?"

Cupcake_Crisis

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

Well, aftercare for a start. Possibility of termination in complicated circumstances, like Savita's case for example.

and, as quoted:



It's a fair bit more work than a standard appointment, where the GP might have a 5 minute chat a quick check with a stethoscope and you're on your way.

Complicated cases such as Savita’s would not be dealt with by a GP.

So basically a pregnancy test, a gynecological exam, and a medical history review to check suitability for the pill? All of which I have done in a GP for a smear test/ getting the contraceptive pill and could all be done in one visit.

7aubzxk43m2sni

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This and the Savita case were the real difficulties for me.

Those reasons nearly swayed me into a no vote, but because it was legal abortion for all with no exceptions was a bridge too far for me.


The rape itself is obviously going to be terribly traumatic, would a full term pregnancy push the woman over the edge so they would take thier own life?

In that case I think it would depend on how the welfare of the woman would be effected.
Abortion may be the only option in that scenario.

If those type of exceptions were placed in a draft idea of legislation before the vote I may have even voted yes.

It was not as simple as a yes or no vote for me at all.

I see where you're coming from. The issue with legislating for such cases is that it's extremely, extremely difficult if not impossible. There are too many questions. How does the woman prove she was raped? How does she prove she is suicidal, if that's necessary? What happens if the proceedings in proving rape / "getting permission" for the abortion take too long ?

Its for this reason that the 12 week window was chosen.

7aubzxk43m2sni

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Complicated cases such as Savita’s would not be dealt with by a GP.

So basically a pregnancy test, a gynecological exam, and a medical history review to check suitability for the pill? All of which I have done in a GP for a smear test/ getting the contraceptive pill and could all be done in one visit.

Right, but you asked "what was the point" if its still cheaper to order pills online, and repealing affects a lot more than GP visits.

iguana

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Disagree boards.ie has a clear leaning when it comes to political and social debate.

A clear leaning that matches most of the rest of the country. The 81% Yes vote here isn't actually all that far off from the 66.4% Yes vote from the electorate. It's far closer than most of us expected it to be considering the under-representation of the 65+ age group on boards. In terms of young people, boards.ie is actually more conservative than the 18-25 age bracket, of whom 87% voted Yes. So tbh, all that boards is, is a pretty accurate reflection of our society based on the age demographic of the users.

Cupcake_Crisis

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

Right, but you asked "what was the point" if its still cheaper to order pills online, and repealing affects a lot more than GP visits.

Exactly! What is the point in pricing it so high that a lot of women would still struggle to afford it? Unless they can implement some sort of payment scheme like someone suggested.

gormdubhgorm

iguana wrote: »

A clear leaning that matches most of the rest of the country. The 81% Yes vote here isn't actually all that far off from the 66.4% Yes vote from the electorate. It's far closer than most of us expected it to be considering the under-representation of the 65+ age group on boards. In terms of young people, boards.ie is actually more conservative than the 18-25 age bracket, of whom 87% voted Yes. So tbh, all that boards is, is a pretty accurate reflection of our society based on the age demographic of the users.

But those 20% on boards seem to actively or implicitly discouraged from posting thier views on the issue.

It is an implied "your kind are not welcome here tone" whether you realise that or not I don't know?

PhoenixParker

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Complicated cases such as Savita’s would not be dealt with by a GP.

So basically a pregnancy test, a gynecological exam, and a medical history review to check suitability for the pill? All of which I have done in a GP for a smear test/ getting the contraceptive pill and could all be done in one visit.

Probably need to be an ultrasound unless they tie it to HCG levels in which case a blood test.

I could see bigger gp practices getting ultrasounds but not the one/two man bands.

NuMarvel

Cost will not be a barrier to abortion, women told

Claims that the majority of abortions in Ireland will cost €300 have been roundly rejected.

Senior sources in the Department of Health said that they were anxious to avoid cost barriers for women who needed terminations.

...

Estimates suggest that with the cost of a standard GP consultation and the abortion pill itself is likely to be around €150. Officials in the Department of Health do not recognise recent reports that a medical abortion will cost around €300.

The article also says that women on medical cards will be able to access abortion services free of charge, and surgical terminations will also be free.

That Indo article was based on one GP's estimation, but I really can't see that being the case if the government wants this is be primary-care led. It would be cheaper for women to go to hospital in that scenario.

iguana

seamus wrote: »

It won't be in legislation. We don't put costs in legislation like this. They may put in a cap of €300, but even that's unlikely.

The figures are coming from some spitballing - the cost of two GP appointments @ €100 each + the cost of the pills being a maximum of €134.

It's worst-case scenario really; I would expect that most GPs will provide a single figure to cover the two appointments, and the pills won't cost anything like €134.

Over time the current free maternity scheme will probably be extended to cover it, and all pill-only appointments will be free once you go through that scheme rather than private care.

I feel that if the initial appointment is quite expensive it will nullify the point of the the reflection period. Some could be at risk of a type of sunk cost fallacy, where they will feel that having already paid out €100 to get the ball rolling on the abortion, they have committed and will follow through. I know how ridiculous that sounds but that type of thinking is so often ingrained on us and in a stressful, overly emotional time where financial strain could be at the fore of a person's worries I think that insisting on a financial commitment at the outset influences the financial decision.

MrFinance

Mavis Warm Stranger wrote: »

It doesn't seem too unreasonable, although perhaps the 2nd consultation should be free, assuming all the assessments are done in one appointment.

€134 is the price of the pills because of the Drug payment scheme. With around a €100 fee for the first appointment you're already at €234.

I'd agree not remotely unreasonable.

In the grand scheme of things, €230-300 is not unreasonable. This is what bugs me being honest. I voted yes, not because I believe in abortion, but because I believe in autonomy and bodily integrity. However, I can't comprehend why the state would pay for the procedure. Subsidising to a slight degree, I could agree with.

I don't care what people say, in a situation where you are stuck and you need to get the funds, you will do it when back is to the wall. Whether it be a loan, friends or family (like my partner and I did). We can't rely on the state to fund everything at the drop of a hat! Standard Irish culture I suppose.

Timberrrrrrrr

robarmstrong wrote: »

You were saying?

And then wonders why he/she gets banned from all of the threads.

tretorn

Simon Harris is talking about the Government paying for all abortions and this is only fair.

Why should people on medical cards have abortions at no cost while the working person has to pay the guts of three hundred euros.

It wont involve GPS at all, that was the original idea in the UK and then forms were signed in advance so it looks like the woman has been seen by two doctors. The Government dont want to have to take responsibility for overseeing abortions, they like everyone else are absolutely sick of the word and they want it out of sight and out of mind now.

The Family Planning clinics have said they are willing to give out the pills, they will do this and the woman will go home and take them, this means no follow up care which will cost money. Most of the pills will work and if not the woman will go to a maternity hospital to complete the abortion. Seemingly these pills are effective now up to twenty two weeks, I didnt realise that.

ETA, there is no way on earth GPS will charge for only one visit, they dont do that for any reason now and they arent going to treat pregnant women looking for abortions with "compassion". They are going to make as much money as possible to make up for all the under sixes attending their surgeries. They want private patients through their doors rather than people on medical cards and many of them are already saying they have too many people looking for appointments.

PhoenixParker

If a woman registers her pregnancy the gp appointments should be free.

Everything should be covered under the existing maternity scheme surely. It covers any pregnancy related treatment.

If it's not and GPS charge, every GP I know charges a lower price for a follow up appointment within a short period, e.g. for blood test results.

7aubzxk43m2sni

tretorn wrote: »

Simon Harris is talking about the Government paying for all abortions and this is only fair.

Why should people on medical cards have abortions at no cost while the working person has to pay the guts of three hundred euros.

For the same reasons that medical card holders have access to other medical procedures at no cost, while others pay??

Simon harris is taking this opportunity to gather as much popularity as possible.

captbarnacles

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary

It is the epitaph of the country I grew up in, the only one I had to call home, this ancient land, traceable into antiquity by its piety, its valor, and its sufferings. This fool we are obliged to call Taoiseach (Chieftain), this man without qualities—who entered the last election three short years ago as “pro-life”—has led my people into a hell beyond imagining.

John Waters is not taking this well.

Igotadose

tretorn wrote: »

Simon Harris is talking about the Government paying for all abortions and this is only fair.

Why should people on medical cards have abortions at no cost while the working person has to pay the guts of three hundred euros.

It wont involve GPS at all, that was the original idea in the UK and then forms were signed in advance so it looks like the woman has been seen by two doctors. The Government dont want to have to take responsibility for overseeing abortions, they like everyone else are absolutely sick of the word and they want it out of sight and out of mind now.

The Family Planning clinics have said they are willing to give out the pills, they will do this and the woman will go home and take them, this means no follow up care which will cost money. Most of the pills will work and if not the woman will go to a maternity hospital to complete the abortion. Seemingly these pills are effective now up to twenty two weeks, I didnt realise that.

Link please? Not what he's said in interviews that I've heard over the last few days.

ELM327

captbarnacles wrote: »

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary



John Waters is not taking this well.

Delighted for him!

tretorn

Thats the thinking now anyway.

You can register for maternity care and then have twelve weeks to decide whether being pregnant suits you or not.

If it doesnt then the State will cover the abortion costs in their entirety, its just so progressive.

iguana

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But those 20% on boards seem to actively or implicitly discouraged from posting thier views on the issue.

It is an implied "your kind are not welcome here tone" whether you realise that or not I don't know?

What 20% on boards? Do you mean the less than 15% difference between the boards poll and the referendum result? Then you are misunderstanding why it exists. It's not because boards is 15% more liberal, it's because there is a very, very small elderly population on the forum. I don't know exactly what the age demographics are here but I think that it's fair to assume that we skew significantly under 50. And 81.66% of 18-49 year olds voted Yes. Boards.ie is actually a very, very, very fair reflection of Irish society based on age bracket.

And as for the tone you are picking up. That's what people are feeling on and offline. It's just that with the relative anonymity of a forum people can be more forward about it. Just as I'm guessing you are, because there is no way you'd hold forth in the pub with the views you've been pontificating about here because at best you'd end up friendless and at worst they could provoke violence from someone who has really suffered under the 8th.

tretorn

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-may-cover-cost-of-care-for-women-seeking-terminations-1.3514234


I notice the word abortion is still being avoided, its women seeking terminations which sounds better.

Some of the YES voters will be annoyed now, most of the YES and NO voters couldnt agree on anything but if the question regarding who pays for the abortions was asked at the exit poll most people would have said the woman and her partner should pay for the abortions themselves.

Simon will agree to anything demanded by the Repeal leaders now, he is completely in their pockets.

ohnonotgmail

captbarnacles wrote: »

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary



John Waters is not taking this well.

In fairness has there been anything recently that he has taken well? Its been downhill for him ever since his song failed miserably in eurovision

Loafing Oaf

end of the road wrote: »

it's very unlikely the no campaign is going to simply go away because the law is introduced. they aren't going to simply get over it or shut up. that isn't how democracy works.

Not in general. But as regards attitudes to social issues in Ireland, this is exactly how it has worked over the years. I remember Des O'Malley talking about this phenomenon on a documentary once, saying something like: "We have a great tradition in Ireland of people dying in the last ditch to resist social change and making wild, apocalyptic predictions about what will happen if divorce or contraception or whatever is introduced. And then it's passed and it's over and everyone forgets all about it."

Our 'liberal elites' are entirely confident the same thing will happen vis a vis abortion. It's up to the pro-lifers to prove them wrong, and they won't do it by sitting round posting messages of defiance on the Internet....

ohnonotgmail

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Not in general. But as regards attitudes to social issues in Ireland, this is exactly how it has worked over the years. I remember Des O'Malley talking about this phenomenon on a documentary once, saying something like: "We have a great tradition in Ireland of people dying in the last ditch to resist social change and making wild, apocalyptic predictions about what will happen if divorce or contraception or whatever is introduced. And then it's passed and it's over and everyone forgets all about it."

Our 'liberal elites' are entirely confident the same thing will happen vis a vis abortion. It's up to the pro-lifers to prove them wrong, and they won't do it by sitting round posting messages of defiance on the Internet....

how do i know if i'm one of those "liberal elites"?

Cupcake_Crisis

captbarnacles wrote: »

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary



John Waters is not taking this well.

Noticed he still hasn’t fled the country though, like he was so adamant he would.

Loafing Oaf

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how do i know if i'm one of those "liberal elites"?

If a thank-you cheque from George Soros drops through your letterbox in the next couple of weeks...

Neyite

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The rape itself is obviously going to be terribly traumatic, would a full term pregnancy push the woman over the edge so they would take thier own life?

In that case I think it would depend on how the welfare of the woman would be effected.
Abortion may be the only option in that scenario.

Ever watch Aliens 3 where Ripley is infected with the alien parasite inside? That. Imagine that happening to you and I'd say you'd be freaking out at being told you've to let it gestate inside you until it's ready to force itself out of an orifice in 9 months time. I would.

There are some women who can handle giving birth and keeping their rapists baby and fair play to them for that choice but other women simply can't do it.

dav3

I don't understand the thinking and the logic behind some of the no voters. Can they really be that delusional and out of touch with the people of Ireland?

More people were motivated to get out and vote against same-sex marriage than voted against abortion. I don't see the people who voted against same-sex marriage blocking legislation or protesting against same-sex marriage, even though there are more of them than oppose abortion in Ireland.

What right do the no voters think they have to fight this? The numbers aren't there. You've been fed a lie, there is no great movement against abortion in Ireland and there never will be. How detached from reality do you have to be to believe you could prevent this?

What exactly are 80+/90+ year olds going to do to stop this?