The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

gmisk

circadian wrote: »

Please be Ganley.

Oh i hope so!

All human life is precious.

Er doesnt your company supply the US military?.....

Billy86

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Whats wrong with saying a woman is beautiful and intelligent?.

Is that not allowed anymore in your "Ministry of Truth" politically correct sanitized culture.

Ah yes 'ministry of truth' because like I've pointed out multiple times already, facts and truth are the enemy of the no campaign. So long as she's in a pretty dress and has her makeup done up, sure let her say whatever she wants. Joy to the soul and all that.

Also never said I was a No voter there!.[/QUOTE]
But you are one, so what is your point?

Stonedpilot wrote: »

I've always spoke my mind life is too short not to (has got me in trouble I can tell ya!) but I'm Christian now and know to be coy and never hurtful.

Stonedpilot wrote: »

A Christian cannot support abortion in anyway, if they do they simply aren't Christian. Period.

Thou shalt not kill. It really is that simple.

facehugger99

Women aborting for lifestyle reasons is a complete myth.

Even if it were true, I'd rather these women have abortions than a child.

Stonedpilot

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

For anyone wondering where that fresh faced Katie Ascough came from, her parents are Tom and Jackie Ascough who run Spirit Radio: The station is a registered charity and survives on donations from businesses and listeners along with the work of volunteers. Yeah, I bet.

Brother Andrew Ascough is connected to pureinheart.ie : Pure in Heart has a mission to promote the meaning of human sexuality and the value of life, through the virtue of chastity, to young people throughout Ireland and further afield.

Dad Tom and uncle Sean have both been directors of the Iona Institute. They also run Clonmacnoise Publishing

Other names that crop up in a search for the Ascoughs are The Nurture Institute (psychosexual lecturing?), Youth 2000, Libertas (via Seans sister Deirdre Ascough Schonborn), The New Evangelisation Trust (Sean and Tom again), Human Life International, Alive! magazine, and on and on.

It is all connected.

There is loads of No voters and movements from all spheres and locations in Ireland. Most dont know each other from Adam.

All related?. The ould tin foil hat must be warm in this weather!.

NuMarvel

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Is it true Maria Steen and Declan Ganley on the Tonight Show debate today?

Steen is on the Pat Kenny Show alongside Ronán Mullen, at 10pm. Ganley will be on the Tonight show, at 11, along with Theresa Lowe, a barrister (and former Where in the World presenter).

AllForIt

Being an undecided veering yes I'm a bit surprised at some of the arguments I'm beginning to dismiss on the yes side.

Namely- ordering abortion pill over the internet, dangerous. Sorry, that's your lookout for taking the risk and putting yourself in that situation in the first place. What would one do if there was no abortion pill - fall of a horse? It's not exactly a 'I had absolutely no choice' scenario. One may very well feel they have a 'right' to go that route but that's not a right we all agree on.

I had to go to England - again not 100% had too. If that option wasn't an option, what would be the rate of desired abortions be then? Much less I'd say without a doubt if one didn't feel 'I can always go to England' as then there may very well be less unplanned pregnancies.

Now all I'm saying is that I don't buy those particular arguments.

circadian

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I get more of a wicked stepmother vibe.

I'd reckon some of the more right wing contingent would be all like.....

Hotblack Desiato

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It is all connected.

Somebody did a diagram of all the connections a few years back. Looks like a demented spider's web. Not sure if it was Slugger O'Toole, does anyone remember?

Hotblack Desiato

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Sorry if people see duplicate posts,for some reason I was getting error messages when trying to post but for some reason the posts went up.

Yep some sort of system problem, I was trying to post on another thread around that time and they weren't appearing, better go back and check it

pjohnson

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Somebody did a diagram of all the connections a few years back. Looks like a demented spider's web. Not sure if it was Slugger O'Toole, does anyone remember?

Nah he was drunk as a rule I believe

Timberrrrrrrr

AllForIt wrote: »

Being an undecided veering yes I'm a bit surprised at some of the arguments I'm beginning to dismiss on the yes side.

Namely- ordering abortion pill over the internet, dangerous. Sorry, that's your lookout for taking the risk and putting yourself in that situation in the first place. What would one do if there was no abortion pill - fall of a horse? It's not exactly a 'I had absolutely no choice' scenario. One may very well feel they have a 'right' to go that route but that's not a right we all agree on.

I had to go to England - again not 100% had too. If that option wasn't an option, what would be the rate of desired abortions be then? Much less I'd say without a doubt if one didn't feel 'I can always go to England' as then there may very well be less unplanned pregnancies.

Now all I'm saying is that I don't buy those particular arguments.

So other than ordering over the web or travelling to the uk what is your solution to am unwanted pregnancy?

Cupcake_Crisis

AllForIt wrote: »

Being an undecided veering yes I'm a bit surprised at some of the arguments I'm beginning to dismiss on the yes side.

Namely- ordering abortion pill over the internet, dangerous. Sorry, that's your lookout for taking the risk and putting yourself in that situation in the first place. What would one do if there was no abortion pill - fall of a horse? It's not exactly a 'I had absolutely no choice' scenario. One may very well feel they have a 'right' to go that route but that's not a right we all agree on.

I had to go to England - again not 100% had too. If that option wasn't an option, what would be the rate of desired abortions be then? Much less I'd say without a doubt if one didn't feel 'I can always go to England' as then there may very well be less unplanned pregnancies.

Now all I'm saying is that I don't buy those particular arguments.

Sometimes it very much is an ‘I have no other option’ situation. Women don’t put themselves through abortions because they feel like it, it’s an absolute last resort

Trasna1

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes, because you have failed to grasp the essence of the debate , removing the 8th amendment simply allows the legislature to deal with the thorny issue , its does not mean that abortion one demand is available

all it does is return us to the position that was the situation here prior to the 8th amendment . A situation then where abortion on demand was illegal

In fairness, without the 8th abortion would most likely me legal here already. The primary purpose of the 8th was to take legislating for abortion away from the courts and the oireachtas and force any changes to be directly put to the people. In the effort to form a coalition it would have been one of the cheap concessions granted by the large party for labour/left support as it would have appeared in the manifesto of those parties -even if there wasn't widespread support.

Zubeneschamali

HandsomeBob wrote: »

Letting Simon Harris go it alone against Peadar was quite calculating. He did well but still, letting the Minister for Health of a government under pressure from a untrusting public debate on his own was slyly done.

This is why Leo has steered clear of debates - too easy to paint the Yes side with the anti-Government brush.

And they were alone because Cora Sherlock pulled out, not because of Yes scheming.

Hotblack Desiato

AllForIt, if I may summarise your post, would it be something like this:

Them irresponsible young wans should have kept their knees together, serves them right now they can suck it up

Are you really leaning towards Yes because nobody else who's posted that sort of thing was.

Trasna1

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Sometimes it very much is an ‘I have no other option’ situation. Women don’t put themselves through abortions because they feel like it, it’s an absolute last resort

In most instances it is a last resort. I wouldn't agree it always is though when the purpose is say gender selection, which occurs in some communities in the UK.

Stonedpilot

Billy86 wrote: »

Ah yes 'ministry of truth' because like I've pointed out multiple times already, facts and truth are the enemy of the no campaign. So long as she's in a pretty dress and has her makeup done up, sure let her say whatever she wants. Joy to the soul and all that.

Also never said I was a No voter there!.

But you are one, so what is your point?[/quote]

Clever trawling through old posts. Point being I didnt say anything about No vote in that particular post.

Yes I am no voter.

My point is or was you can say a woman is beautiful and or intelligent without the politically correct thought police jumping on you or implying some anti woman nonsense.
Frankly its nice living in the real World where people still appreciate a compliment. Who doesn't?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Ah will you give up your oul sins.

Any neutral would acknowledge that Harris wiped the floor of Toibin yesterday. It's beyond doubt. He had all his facts and was polished in his approach.

I doubt anyone on the No side thought Toibin did well.

Yes, they did and many people have criticised Harris. There is nothing 'beyond doubt' about it.

BoatMad

AllForIt wrote: »

Being an undecided veering yes I'm a bit surprised at some of the arguments I'm beginning to dismiss on the yes side.

Namely- ordering abortion pill over the internet, dangerous. Sorry, that's your lookout for taking the risk and putting yourself in that situation in the first place. What would one do if there was no abortion pill - fall of a horse? It's not exactly a 'I had absolutely no choice' scenario. One may very well feel they have a 'right' to go that route but that's not a right we all agree on.

I had to go to England - again not 100% had too. If that option wasn't an option, what would be the rate of desired abortions be then? Much less I'd say without a doubt if one didn't feel 'I can always go to England' as then there may very well be less unplanned pregnancies.

Now all I'm saying is that I don't buy those particular arguments.

I think most people realise that the whole issue of abortion , ranges across a very wide gamut of situations. This fact alone is a single reason to vote Yes,

because yes , at the very least allows us as a society to seek solutions , across the whole gamut of the problem, That does not per se advocate blanket terminations. "No", on the other hand , prevents us as a society from dealing with the many complex , often tragic situations that in some cases may mean that termination is the best option in a bad basket of options

This is the situation most European countries find them selves in, I see no evidence that we in Ireland are any different, and in fact we have engineered so many terrible situations in ireland , precisely because we failed to address issues and instead stuck our head in the sand. Its time we grew up and became adults here

Hotblack Desiato

Trasna1 wrote: »

In most instances it is a last resort. I wouldn't agree it always is though when the purpose is say gender selection, which occurs in some communities in the UK.

it may occur, but it's not legal, and if the societies these people originally came from valued women as equals then there'd be no desire for it.

Leroy42

AllForIt wrote: »

Being an undecided veering yes I'm a bit surprised at some of the arguments I'm beginning to dismiss on the yes side.

Namely- ordering abortion pill over the internet, dangerous. Sorry, that's your lookout for taking the risk and putting yourself in that situation in the first place. What would one do if there was no abortion pill - fall of a horse? It's not exactly a 'I had absolutely no choice' scenario. One may very well feel they have a 'right' to go that route but that's not a right we all agree on.

I had to go to England - again not 100% had too. If that option wasn't an option, what would be the rate of desired abortions be then? Much less I'd say without a doubt if one didn't feel 'I can always go to England' as then there may very well be less unplanned pregnancies.

Now all I'm saying is that I don't buy those particular arguments.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So other than ordering over the web or travelling to the uk what is your solution to am unwanted pregnancy?

On the pills issue. There are a few solutions to the issue. Either we make the pills available in Ireland or we continue as is and put women as risk (bearing in mind that women seeking these pills are probably in a stressed state). What is your solution

On the having to go to England. You are right, they could go to Holland or somewhere else. Or they could have the baby. Thats the option if they have come to the deicison that keeping the baby is not the right option. So what is your solution?

On both of these, the only real solution is to have them based, and regulated, in Ireland

Cupcake_Crisis

Trasna1 wrote: »

In most instances it is a last resort. I wouldn't agree it always is though when the purpose is say gender selection, which occurs in some communities in the UK.

Ah, that old chestnut.

You find out the gender between 16-20 weeks gestestion. Please explain to me how that fits into the proposed 12 week time frame? I’ll wait.

Trasna1

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

it may occur, but it's not legal, and if the societies these people originally came from valued women as equals then there'd be no desire for it.

It does occur, not it may occur.

Shouldn't they legislate for it though seeing that it's happening? Argument sound familiar?

pjohnson

I think Fidelma was the real trump card for yes. You can just let most of these "no's" build up a head of steam and they score all the own goals.

BoatMad

Trasna1 wrote: »

It does occur, not it may occur.

Shouldn't they legislate for it though seeing that it's happening? Argument sound familiar?

nope lots of things ' go-on" that in itself does not mean we legislate for them

equally many things "go-on" that do result in legislation , typically to control or regulate things

its not black and white and stop painting it so

Stonedpilot

NuMarvel wrote: »

Steen is on the Pat Kenny Show alongside Ronán Mullen, at 10pm. Ganley will be on the Tonight show, at 11, along with Theresa Lowe, a barrister (and former Where in the World presenter).

Didnt know. Maria is an excellent debater. Say whomever is on the Yes side against her is now bricking it and having a few scoops to quell the nerves.

Billy86

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Clever trawling through old posts. Point being I didnt say anything about No vote in that particular post.

Yes I am no voter.

My point is or was you can say a woman is beautiful and or intelligent without the politically correct thought police jumping on you or implying some anti woman nonsense.
Frankly its nice living in the real World where people still appreciate a compliment. Who doesn't?

Because it's random and pointless saying "she's beautiful and well dressed" when it comes to actually debating the issue. Even saying she is educated has little relevance if her points make no sense. And your post never said she was intelligent.

I called you a no voter. You say yourself that you are a no voter. Your posting history makes this clear, you don't become a neutral or not a mo voter simply by not mentioning it in every post. And your post did your side a disservice, but that's been par for the course for most no voters throughout all of these threads, so you fit in well with your peers. You even got in the empty and meaningless "I hate pc culture" twice and paranoid "thought police" echoes in two posts, reverberating right from the pockets of Robert Mercer funded media. Good on you.

Trasna1

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Ah, that old chestnut.

You find out the gender between 16-20 weeks gestestion. Please explain to me how that fits into the proposed 12 week time frame? I’ll wait.

Gender can be determined at ten/eleven weeks, the same as downs. And with medical advancement it should be able to happen earlier.

12 weeks is not mentioned in the constitutional amendment, that's the proposed legislation which may or may not be enacted and may or may not be compatible with the the rest of the constitution.

Furthermore, gender related abortions are normally made under provision C in the UK, which is up to 24 weeks.

Zubeneschamali

Stonedpilot wrote: »

There is loads of No voters and movements from all spheres and locations in Ireland. Most dont know each other from Adam.

I don't mean no voters are all connected, but yes, the movements are all connected, How many jumps from, say Katie Ascough to Maria Steen? Not far - Katie's Dad Tom - Iona - Maria.

These are not a random collection of people who met up to campaign for this amendment, they have all been in bed together for many, many years.

schemingbohemia

Trasna1 wrote: »

It does occur, not it may occur.

Shouldn't they legislate for it though seeing that it's happening? Argument sound familiar?

It isn't one of the grounds for abortion after 12 weeks though, unless you're suggesting that women would pretend to be suicidal enough to persuade 2 doctors because they'd rather a boy or a girl? So yet again it comes down to the No side not trusting women.