The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

jjmcclure · 23-05-2018 11:21AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you keep going on about potential as if it is the be all and end all. If you stand on a caterpillar would you say you killed a potential butterfly?

Eh... Yes, because that's a fact

rustynutz · 23-05-2018 11:21AM

I am for abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and where the life of the mother is at risk.

I'm against abortion on demand, abortion in the care of disability or Down Syndrom, and abortion being used as a late form of contraception.

I am voting no on Friday, does this make me a bad person?

....... · 23-05-2018 11:22AM

This post has been deleted.

retro:electro · 23-05-2018 11:22AM

rustynutz wrote: »

I am for abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and where the life of the mother is at risk.

If you’re voting No on Friday then no you’re not.

rustynutz wrote: »

abortion in the care of disability or Down Syndrom

This isn’t being catered for.

rustynutz wrote: »

I am voting no on Friday, does this make me a bad person?

Im sure you’re not a bad person. You just have no empathy.

Billy86 · 23-05-2018 11:22AM

iguana wrote: »

Then what? Over 5,000 babies a year into foster care, in our already struggling foster care system?

Also not an option sadly as the foster system is so badly stretched at the moment that not only are carers almost impossible to come by - residential units ('group homes') are typically stretched beyond capacity and even the likes of oberstown for young offenders is insanely overcrowded (resi unit kids and detention centre kids are often one and the same, sadly).

We did a fostering drive in our office a few months back, thousands and thousands of packs etc sent out. The grand total of enquiries into us was SIX. Because "love both" is a crock of sh** - they will dismissively tell you to chuck the kids into care homes that they won't fund nor care about in the least.

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-05-2018 11:22AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

"At 12 weeks a baby's reflexes kick in: His fingers will soon begin to open and close, toes will curl, and his mouth will make sucking movements. He'll feel it if you gently poke your tummy – though you won't feel his movements yet"

Sounds like a living being to me. Keep your head in the sand if you wish.

So movement. That is all that exists in a 12 week old fetus that you are predicating your position upon. Bits of it move.

No head in the sand required, mere movement is not a coherent or meaningful mediation point here.

Further I am not sure I have seen anyone actually suggest it is not a "Living being". So you appear to be rebutting a position, with lines like "Head in the sand" that no one actually holds.

Rather people see that it is not a living PERSON which is a much different thing entirely. A difference you can either acknowledge or keep your head in the sand if you wish.

gmisk · 23-05-2018 11:22AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Interesting comparison. What does slime mold have the potential to develop into?

Hmmmmm John Waters?

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 11:23AM

rustynutz wrote: »

I am for abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and where the life of the mother is at risk.

I'm against abortion on demand, abortion in the care of disability or Down Syndrom, and abortion being used as a late form of contraception.

I am voting no on Friday, does this make me a bad person?

it makes you uninformed. All those things you are against will still happen. They will just happen in a less safe way. And we still have the 8th affecting womens healthcare.

NuMarvel · 23-05-2018 11:23AM

joe40 wrote: »

I haven't had a chance to post this morning, but I would just like to say that I thought primetime last night was very good.
The difference between last night and the CB live show was stark, and although RTE will never admit it, this shows that they realise the CB live show was very flawed.
Was there any reason given why Cora Sherlock pulled out?
Simon Harris did very well (as did Peadar Toibin in fairness although I fundamentally disagree with him)
It was a pity that the Consultant obstetrician was not able to debate for the yes since Cora pulled out.
There was an obstetrician on TV3 show that was brilliant.
For me it is the gynaecologist and obstetricians working in this field that will sway the undecided or "No" voters that aren't fully entrenched in their views. Theirs is the most compelling argument for people who claim to have sympathy for the hard cases, but want to logic and reason.

No reason given, and she's even posted a video where she says she didn't pull out! But considering she was nowhere to be seen, she clearly did.

If I had to guess, I'd say she was pressured to pull out by others in the No camp, with the intention of doing a bait and switch with Steen. But that backfired when RTE said no to Steen.

In any case, it's another PR mishap that they didn't need. They held their last press conference and the first questions were about what happened with Sherlock, is she still a spokesperson, etc.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 23-05-2018 11:23AM

iguana wrote: »

On average 14 Irish women have an abortion every day. There are 600 applicants for adoption in Ireland. Say that those applicants wanted an average of 3 babies each. That's less than half of the abortions in one year accounted for. Then what? Over 5,000 babies a year into foster care, in our already struggling foster care system? Do we start sending some of them to prospective adoptive parents abroad and set up orphanages for the rest? The numbers just don't add up. If all of the unwanted pregnancies were carried to term, the end result would be thousands and thousands of unwanted children every year who would grow up without a fraction of the love and individual support children need to thrive. It would also mean that all the children already in the foster care system, children who have suffered from abuse and neglect, would be less likely to find support and care.

Abortion isn't the nicest idea in the world. I get it, I have ovarian endometrioma which, until the growths were removed, means my immune system treated all of my earliest pregnancies as invaders resulting in miscarriage. But abortion of an embryo has to be preferable to thousands of unwanted children. Especially considering that abortion can ensure a better mental health outcome for the woman and leaves her strong enough to be the mother her child deserves if and when she does decide to have a family or in a better place to keep giving her existing children the time and energy they are used to.

But many couples would happily adopt two or three children over a number of years. Also many couples at the moment don't even apply to adopt because there's so little chance of adopting at home and the process of adopting abroad is daunting and incredibly expensive.

It does seem ironic that, on the one hand we're making all kinds of efforts to enable different methods of having a baby e.g. surrogacy and on the other trying to increase the availability of abortion.

....... · 23-05-2018 11:23AM

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 11:24AM

gmisk wrote: »

Hmmmmm John Waters?

slime mold would have more respect for itself than to do that.

ohnonotgmail · 23-05-2018 11:25AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

Eh... Yes, because that's a fact

so you agree that a foetus at 12 weeks has no sentience and is therefore not as equally important as the woman carrying it?

take everything · 23-05-2018 11:26AM

Ruth Coppinger in the Dail on this now.

Demonising the no voters.
Doing a good job of not helping people wrestling with their conscience and thinking about voting yes.

Dope.

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 11:26AM

rustynutz wrote: »

I am for abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and where the life of the mother is at risk.

I'm against abortion on demand, abortion in the care of disability or Down Syndrom, and abortion being used as a late form of contraception.

I am voting no on Friday, does this make me a bad person?

Yes. Because it shows you’re voting no without listening to the facts that you’ve been given.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 23-05-2018 11:26AM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Watched the Prime Time debate on RTE Player again.

Harris was outstanding. He did an almost perfect debate.

I think some people saw what they wanted to see. The Irish Times reckon neither side won, and I have seen discussions on line dismissing Harris as pretty woeful. I certainly wasn't impressed with him. He constantly fell back on emotive language and finger wagging.

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 11:27AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Did feel that Miriam overstepped the mark a few times with Harris, interrupting him unnecessarily, or parroting very emotive No-language back at him instead of asking a question in a neutral way.

Hard for the RTÉ regulars to back off from the standard "bate it out of them" approach they usually have to use on politicians -"I'm sorry, Minister, but I am going to have to ask for a real answer to the question".

take everything · 23-05-2018 11:27AM

Leo doing a better job now in fairness.

Stonedpilot · 23-05-2018 11:30AM

Shame Maria Steen not on the box doing the debates.

A highly educated beautiful well dressed woman = brings joy to the soul.

ArmaniJeanss · 23-05-2018 11:30AM

rustynutz wrote: »

I am for abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and where the life of the mother is at risk.

I'm against abortion on demand, abortion in the care of disability or Down Syndrom, and abortion being used as a late form of contraception.

I am voting no on Friday, does this make me a bad person?

Voting Yes is more logical in this case.
You will 100% get the changes you want, and will have a chance to avoid the changes you don't want. You can lobby your TDs now and at every election as the issues will be legislative.

Voting No will maintain the status quo, likely for at least a generation.
It's marginal enough, and I'm sure it would be a difficult step for you.

Leroy42 · 23-05-2018 11:31AM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

I think some people saw what they wanted to see. The Irish Times reckon neither side won, and I have seen discussions on line dismissing Harris as pretty woeful. I certainly wasn't impressed with him. He constantly fell back on emotive language and finger wagging.

That is true of every debate. People, on both sides, will remain unmoved regardless of what is siad (save for a complete bomb shell).

But these debates, like most campaigns, are not for everyone, they are for the undecided. Since No is behind in the polls simply matching the other side isn't enough.

In terms of debates, they usually favour the underdog/party that is behind. Look at Corbyn or Trump. Simply not exploding on stage is taken as a win by many but in terms of getting people to vote for your position it won't make too much difference.

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 11:31AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Shame Maria Steen not on the box doing the debates.

A highly educated beautiful well dressed woman = brings joy to the soul.

Because being beautifully dressed is so vital to these debates

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 23-05-2018 11:32AM

cournioni wrote: »

My solution is to avoid killing a healthy living being if at all possible, to give it the chance at life.

That's not a solution, that's just repeating what you want. Harris called No campaigners in this last night. Constant harping on about "alternatives" but not one concrete workable example of what those might be. This referendum didn't exactly come out of nowhere like, plenty of time for them to conceive of, fine tune and sell these alternatives. But nada. And now the no campaigners and posters are like this:

"I'm taking the next two weeks off work"

"And what's your solution to ensure the work still gets done and nobody else is unduly impacted?"

"My solution is I'm taking the next two weeks off!!!"

Why should the unborn baby pay the price (in this case where we are talking about career and economic reasons) with its life just because the woman decided against it?

Because it's an entity without consciousness, the ability to feel pain, to know it's even alive, and it's in her body and has the potential to radically change her entire life for the rest of her life.

Billy86 · 23-05-2018 11:34AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Because being beautifully dressed is so vital to these debates

I thought that was quite a delightfully unintentional snapshot of how many on the no side view women actually.

Stonedpilot · 23-05-2018 11:35AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Because being beautifully dressed is so vital to these debates

Well most minds made up already though.

And beats seeing Mary Loony McDonalds incessantly scowling puss.

gmisk · 23-05-2018 11:35AM

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Shame Maria Steen not on the box doing the debates.

A highly educated beautiful well dressed woman = brings joy to the soul.

Well dressed? how important is that?

She was on the Claire Byrne debate she was also meant to be on Pat kenny show tonight (but she has pulled out)...I think thats plenty for me.
Hopefully her and the rest of the Iona Institute will disappear of the TV and radio again.

BoatMad · 23-05-2018 11:36AM

rustynutz wrote: »

I am for abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and where the life of the mother is at risk.

I'm against abortion on demand, abortion in the care of disability or Down Syndrom, and abortion being used as a late form of contraception.

I am voting no on Friday, does this make me a bad person?

Yes, because you have failed to grasp the essence of the debate , removing the 8th amendment simply allows the legislature to deal with the thorny issue , its does not mean that abortion one demand is available

all it does is return us to the position that was the situation here prior to the 8th amendment . A situation then where abortion on demand was illegal

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 11:36AM

Billy86 wrote: »

I thought that was quite a delightfully unintentional snapshot of how many on the no side view women actually.

Is it just. Sure we’re only dirty hussys getting pregnant in the first place

Calina · 23-05-2018 11:36AM

jjmcclure wrote: »

....... wrote: »

Slime molds seek out food in a movement that suggests they know what they are doing.

No one is disputing a fetus is a living being.

Interesting comparison. What does slime mold have the potential to develop into?

Extremely intelligent network calculators.

iguana · 23-05-2018 11:38AM

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

But many couples would happily adopt two or three children over a number of years. Also many couples at the moment don't even apply to adopt because there's so little chance of adopting at home and the process of adopting abroad is daunting and incredibly expensive.

Read my post again. I estimated an average of 3 children each for each applicant. That's still less than half of the abortions in just one year. After that we are left with over 5000 a year. Outside of some sort of dystopian novel style fertility crises, we will never, ever, ever have enough adoptive parents for that.

Malaya Red Sandlot wrote: »

It does seem ironic that, on the one hand we're making all kinds of efforts to enable different methods of having a baby e.g. surrogacy and on the other trying to increase the availability of abortion.

There is nothing at all ironic about not wanting to force women to gestate babies they don't want just because other women are willing to. That is the very, very very definition of pro-choice. It's actually seriously messed up to try and draw that comparison though. Real blessed be the fruitloops style stuff.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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