The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

....... · 24-05-2018 11:15AM

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retro:electro · 24-05-2018 11:15AM

Repeal the 8th.
By marking No you are agreeing that it is acceptable for a woman to be given a 14 year jail sentence for importing pills.
You are agreeing that it’s acceptable that a child who is raped should be forced to carry her baby to term.
You are agreeing that a once perfectly healthy woman should be left to rot in a bed until she is dying before medicine can intervene.
You are agreeing that women can’t be trusted to look after themselves.
You are agreeing that it’s okay to travel to have an abortion as long as it’s not in your back yard.
You are agreeing that it’s okay for women to be stripped of supports and safeguards for a difficult decision.
You are adding extisting pressure to an already demanding decsion.
Your X in the No spot is going to create more hard cases.
There won’t be any other options. This is it.

Abortion is already happening. Let’s make is safe.

seamus · 24-05-2018 11:15AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join the queue like everyone else.

Clinical wards and consultants time is currently being taken up with women who have unviable foetuses and high-risk pregnancies unlikely to continue, but cannot be treated in line with world norms and instead must be managed through our maternity system, consuming beds, consultants' time and nursing resources unnecessarily.

....... · 24-05-2018 11:16AM

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AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 11:16AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Oddly enough the extreme cases may be very badly catered for if this referendum passes. Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join the queue like everyone else.

Only cases involving later term procedures would require such measures. Wanted pregnancies gone wrong.

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:17AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

I’ll ask you one more time then I’ll just accept that you, like the rest of the no side, has no answer for this.

How do you propose we legislate for rape cases?

I'm responding to a lot of posters here, you are responding to only one, so have a bit of patience. See my post above re a different referendum that removes the two handed grab for abortion up to 12 weeks on demand for potentially spurious and minor reasons such as not shaming a family. And as I said earlier, abortion is not always solely a woman's decision, as partners, parents, etc can be involved in the decision making.

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 11:19AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'm responding to a lot of posters here, you are responding to only one, so have a bit of patience. See my post above re a different referendum that removes the two handed grab for abortion up to 12 weeks on demand for potentially spurious and minor reasons such as not shaming a family. And as I said earlier, abortion is not always solely a woman's decision, as partners, parents, etc can be involved in the decision making.

That still doesn't answer the question.

You support abortion in cases of rape. How would this happen? What system would be in place?

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 11:19AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'm responding to a lot of posters here, you are responding to only one, so have a bit of patience. See my post above re a different referendum that removes the two handed grab for abortion up to 12 weeks on demand for potentially spurious and minor reasons such as not shaming a family. And as I said earlier, abortion is not always solely a woman's decision, as partners, parents, etc can be involved in the decision making.

Ok, so you’re just not going to answer the question you were asked. That’s fine.

wexie · 24-05-2018 11:19AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I would imagine we can bicker till the end of days if we felt like it.
Same as you can on Facebook, Twitter etc. etc.

It's not a social media blackout.

Unfortunately I guess

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 11:19AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And as I said earlier, abortion is not always solely a woman's decision, as partners, parents, etc can be involved in the decision making.

How can a second party be involved in that decision, in a practical or legal sense?

Does each parent get 1 vote? What happens in a draw?

Only the mother can decide, else it will mean cases where someone else forces her to come to term by veto.

NuMarvel · 24-05-2018 11:19AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

A fair and representative way would allow the electorate to draw a line at various places between status quo and a.o.d.

The strong indication is they would have preferred that.

The middle ground plus those from no/yes who figured better the middle than the opposing extreme would be in favour.

It would achieve a greater majority than this referendun will. Thus reflecting better, the wil of we, the people

Binding referendums can only ever be simple Yes or No questions. Anything else is a glorified opinion poll, and regardless of what the electorate would say, we'd have to have the referendum we're holding to make any changes.

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 11:20AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Different referendum which removes the part about abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and deals better with the extreme cases.

The 12 week abortion on demand limit is like I said a two handed grab by those who want a very liberal abortion on demand regime where abortions can be carried out for the most minor and spurious of reasons such as not wanting to embarrass a family or upset their social standing.

Oddly enough the extreme cases may be very badly catered for if this referendum passes. Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join the queue like everyone else.

No, that’s not what was asked. In a practical sense, how would terminations be provided to women who have been raped? Will they need to prove it?

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:20AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

That still doesn't answer the question.

You support abortion in cases of rape. How would this happen? What system would be in place?

Let me hear your ideas first on what should happen in cases of rape and how it should happen.
I feel like I am doing all the work here with very little proposals coming from the Yes side other than that everyone should have an abortion if they want it.

I may be in the minority but I have no problem standing up for viable healthy babies who are not victims of the extreme cases mentioned. I'm sure one or two may thank me in 20 years if this referendum doesn't pass.

erica74 · 24-05-2018 11:20AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join the queue like everyone else.

The majority of abortions will be through the patient's GP and wards and consultants won't be involved. You do realise that approx. 4,000 abortions a year, with the majority done through a GP, won't clog up anywhere or create a queue.

AtomicHorror · 24-05-2018 11:22AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Let me hear your ideas first on what should happen in cases of rape and how it should happen.
I feel like I am doing all the work here with very little proposals coming from the Yes side other than that everyone should have an abortion if they want it.

I may be in the minority but I have no problem standing up for viable healthy babies who are not victims of extreme cases mentioned.

The proposal is abortion for any reason to 12 weeks.

Now what's your counter?

_Dara_ · 24-05-2018 11:22AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Let me hear your ideas first on what should happen in cases of rape and how it should happen.
I feel like I am doing all the work here.

You said you’d support it in cases of rape. The onus is entirely on you.

Me? I think it’s entirely impractical. Traumatised women should not have to prove that they were raped. And waiting for the court case will mean the pregnancy is over by the time it’s resolved.

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 11:22AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Nonsense and you know it. Another lie from the Yes side.

Just look at who was on last night: Maria Steen and Theresa Lowe.

Theresa is Maria's aunt.

Edit: Ronan Mullen is an exception, he is not related to the rest since he is actually 1000 toads in a suit pretending to be human.

Mr. CooL ICE · 24-05-2018 11:23AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'm responding to a lot of posters here, you are responding to only one, so have a bit of patience.

Mod: Can everybody please remember the following part laid out in the OP:

There are far more pro-choice than pro-life posters. Everybody on the majority side needs to understand that those in the minority could have 20+ people expecting a reply to them. There is no sitewide or AH rule that specifies that people must reply to every post directed at them so don't go around badgering people. On the other hand, this doesn't give anybody the right to soapbox either

That said, many posters here are asking the same question to you, Shurimgreat; how do you plan on legislating for cases of pregnancy as a result of rape if the 12-week were to be removed? Or can you suggest an alternative? Answering this would be a great way of expediting this part of the discussion.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 24-05-2018 11:24AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Ah come on, she monopolised the whole debate and everyone can see that.
Pat was rude to her, I agree, but only because she completely ignored and disregarded all direction given to her, and continued to speak when she'd been told not to.

She was good on Claire Byrne, because she was sneakier about it. The mask slipped last night, she seemed frazzled, and wouldn't do what she was told.
She came across rude, arrogant and insolent. She was like a bold child you kept having to be told to stop.

I watched from the start and right from the beginning I was horrified at how Pat talked over her and talked her down. He also did the same to a NO voter in the audience, he was practically shouting at her as if he was there to speak for the YES voters. After the ad break he had toned it down so I presume the producer had a word with him.

Personally I found Regina Doherty to be incredibly rude and shouty.

nozzferrahhtoo · 24-05-2018 11:24AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I feel like I am doing all the work here

Quite the opposite is the actual issue here. You are throwing out vague assertions and unworkable solutions which you are being called on precisely because you have NOT done the work on them. If you had done the work on this stuff before flinging out these things, you would be prepared.

For example when you bemoan the time that will be "taken up" you appear to have done no work, no calculations, and invested no research into actually quantifying what that time will be, what it will be spent doing, and who will be doing it.

Or for example when the discussion of abortion in cases of rape come up you appear to have invested no work or thought into how such a system would work coherently and plausibly.

So complaining you are "doing all the work" has that ring to it that you get when a teenager sitting around playing on their phone all day is asked to clean their room and they storm out saying something like "Why do I have to do EVERYTHING around here?".

erica74 · 24-05-2018 11:24AM

....... wrote: »

Does the media blackout count on boards.ie or can we continue to bicker until the result?

Oooh "bicker", I love that word:pac: I hope we can continue to bicker like obstreperous girls!

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'm responding to a lot of posters here, you are responding to only one, so have a bit of patience.

Aah so you have read the opening post which states claims must be backed up with evidence, which is a site wide rule. Any evidence for the claims you've made?

Shurimgreat · 24-05-2018 11:25AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

No, that’s not what was asked. In a practical sense, how would terminations be provided to women who have been raped? Will they need to prove it?

Yes, there would need to be at least some evidence to back it up. Again my opinion.

Most rapes are investigated by gardai and medical experts anyways. But you knew that already. And if they aren't then women should immediately seek garda and medical assistance. This is the responsible advice to any woman.

Again, something to be left to medical experts not armchair analysts.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 24-05-2018 11:25AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Just look at who was on last night: Maria Steen and Theresa Lowe.

Theresa is Maria's aunt.

Edit: Ronan Mullen is an exception, he is not realted to the rest since he is actually 1000 toads in a suit pretending to be human.

I don't see the problem. They're both successful and intelligent women in their own right, well able to articulate their view. Why does it matter that they're related?

Nettle Soup · 24-05-2018 11:25AM

BabyCheeses wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

The most vocal politicians for Repeal the last number of years was Socialists like Ruth Coppinger who called on the government to nationalise Dell, a US multinational...

People can generalise about both sides, but there are people on both sides that each side would wish got less air time.

She needs to get to the real issues like fraping, wiffy, god controlling the weather, and defending paedophiles

Classic. I keep forgetting FHE is another No hero. What a team!

SusieBlue · 24-05-2018 11:26AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Let me hear your ideas first on what should happen in cases of rape and how it should happen.
I feel like I am doing all the work here with very little proposals coming from the Yes side other than everyone should have an abortion if they want it.

Its very simple. Unrestricted abortion up till 12 weeks allows women who have been assaulted the opportunity to have terminations without the added stress of having to disclose what happened to them.

Literally any other scenario would involve a traumatised woman having to prove her case to a person/panel (as was suggested by someone else) and that simply isn't good enough.

Many victims of rape don't report it, as shown by statistics.
Many are still trying to fathom what happened to them when they realise they are pregnant.

I don't see any benefit in making a woman who has already had her body violated against her will prove her case. She shouldn't have to.

What's your solution?

Water John · 24-05-2018 11:26AM

And Teresa Lowe could have asked her sister (Pieta House) to advise the No camp on the reality of mental health and how real it is.

murpho999 · 24-05-2018 11:27AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Different referendum which removes the part about abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and deals better with the extreme cases.

The 12 week abortion on demand limit is like I said a two handed grab by those who want a very liberal abortion on demand regime where abortions can be carried out for the most minor and spurious of reasons such as not wanting to embarrass a family or upset their social standing.

Oddly enough the extreme cases may be very badly catered for if this referendum passes. Clinical wards and consultants time take up by women having abortion on demand with the extreme cases having to join the queue like everyone else.

The referundum does not mention "Abortion on demand"

"Abortion on Demand" will not be in the constitution if the 8th is repealed.

The vote tomorrow is simply to repeal the 8th or not and allow legislation.

So how can you legislate in the case of rape?

Zubeneschamali · 24-05-2018 11:27AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Its abortion on demand through the back door.

I'm as liberal as the next person, but this is a step too far for me.

a) It is not the back door, it is not a secret plan. It is abortion "on demand" through the front door with a democratic mandate.

b) No, you really are not as liberal as the next person.

wexie · 24-05-2018 11:27AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Let me hear your ideas first on what should happen in cases of rape and how it should happen.

A woman should be allowed an abortion in the case of rape.

There I've said it.

Now....I've come to the conclusion that for that to happen abortions should be freely available as there is simply no feasible way to legislate for this to only happen in cases of rape/incest/FFA...

None

So far, nobody has been able to come up with any arguments whatsoever to prove me (and many others here) wrong.

Some have tried with the most outrageous suggestions, but nobody has been able to come up with a workable solution.

You seem to think there is one, we're all very curious what that might be?

Cupcake_Crisis · 24-05-2018 11:27AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Let me hear your ideas first on what should happen in cases of rape and how it should happen.
I feel like I am doing all the work here with very little proposals coming from the Yes side other than that everyone should have an abortion if they want it.

I may be in the minority but I have no problem standing up for viable healthy babies who are not victims of the extreme cases mentioned. I'm sure one or two may thank me in 20 years if this referendum doesn't pass.

Because YOU were asked!

I have absolutely zero suggestions because there are none other than a 12 week window in very early pregnancy.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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