Practical shotgun - Contd from Target thread

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

Looks like great fun, pity we cannot do it in the republic.

If I had been listened to 25 years ago,we would not only have had practical shotgun but practical pistol and rifle as well. But back then we were no more united or interested in this than we are now.It could be brought back here and in a modified form, could even be shot with the dynamic aspect. But we need a sympathetic ear and enough professionals from both IPSC, and LE as well as military experts to explain to a bunch of particularly dense people, whether by accident or design ,when it comes to firearms, the utter and total difference between CQC"combat training " and a sport,and that IPSC has ZERO relevance to CQC in methodology, firearms, equipment and everything else.:mad::rolleyes:

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If I had been listened to 25 years ago,we would not only have had practical shotgun but practical pistol and rifle as well. But back then we were no more united or interested in this than we are now.It could be brought back here and in a modified form, could even be shot with the dynamic aspect. But we need a sympathetic ear and enough professionals from both IPSC, and LE as well as military experts to explain to a bunch of particularly dense people, whether by accident or design ,when it comes to firearms, the utter and total difference between CQC"combat training " and a sport,and that IPSC has ZERO relevance to CQC in methodology, firearms, equipment and everything else.:mad::rolleyes:

Is there any moves being made to open talks with the minister or whoever about getting practical back ? And if not, why not ?

Walter Mittys Brother

gunny123 wrote: »

And if not, why not ?

That'd be like playing Russian roulette with a revolver loaded with 6 rounds

Seriously though, I reckon that'd lead to even more stuff being taken away :mad:

gunny123

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Seriously though, I reckon that'd lead to even more stuff being taken away :mad:

I don't see why. They would be asking the minister to look at the evidence and reconsider a dubious decision to ban a sport practised in nearly every other country in the world, apart from 2. Ireland and another (who i cannot remember off the top of my head).

As for taking stuff away, why ? The minister would either kick the decision down the road, say yes or say no. Why would he say no and then go through the process of banning some other type of firearms.

Grizzly 45

Austrailia ASFIK,Re the lack of pump and SA rifles and shotguns.:rolleyes:

The problem was, apart from hostility from the Irish shooting community Fudds, malicious rumours, and Baron Gym Underpants in the most anti-gun ministers constituency, playing at bodyguards was it went too far, too fast, and had by the end of the day, stuck the PTB into permanent full redlining"I don't like de look of that now at all at all!" mode.

A decade later we still have handguns[more or less] SA CF and restricted shotguns, that are now shooting Embassy cup,T&P and Multi-target, albeit stationary. Which is the nub of the problem, the movement component.with a loaded firearm? What happens, if you are moving to the firearm, come to a complete stop,load and then fire? Or vice versa, move to the pre stationed ammo and then come to a stop and fire?OR that the targets themselves are dynamic? Running boar is legal here and we have sorted out this thing about turning targets a long time ago as well.

Would you all be surprised to learn that "combat training" is pretty much illegal in most western EU countries,[bar Switzerland]? Yet IPSC is allowed, even in the UK? Is it just because their PTB's are more clued in than ours on what is the major differences? If there is/was interest,a strong case could be made to try a reintroduction to the ROI, but it means a group or individual having to stick the ol Ceann around the corner to see what happens.:eek:

Walter Mittys Brother

gunny123 wrote: »

I don't see why. They would be asking the minister to look at the evidence and reconsider a dubious decision to ban a sport practised in nearly every other country in the world, apart from 2. Ireland and another (who i cannot remember off the top of my head).

As for taking stuff away, why ? The minister would either kick the decision down the road, say yes or say no. Why would he say no and then go through the process of banning some other type of firearms.

That's where you're argument will fall down. You want to use actual evidence & common sense...............the politicans don't play by them rules

Banning now is simply the stroke of the proverbial pen.

Cass

I've split the political aspect of this thread from the target forum to here as the discussion of politics, etc. is prohibited from the target forum.

Please continue all political posts here and anything related to the sport of practical shotgun shooting can go into it's original thread in the target forum.

SVI40

Grizzly 45, Australia has quite an active IPSC community. . The only issue they have is they cannot shoot .40S&W. Hence .357 Sig being allowed. You can own a .40 S&W if you shoot handgun metallic silhouette.

IPSC is recognised as a sport in many, many countries. I believe that there are 98+ different regions affiliated to IPSC, possibly 101. Each region is generally a country. So, you are looking at the best part of 100 different governments, each with their own firearms laws, recognising it as a sport, not "military" training.

Each region can also modify the IPSC rules to accommodate it's laws. For instance, in Germany you cannot shoot on the move, but can move from position A to position B, and shoot the targets statically.

Like all shooting sports, it's great fun, but again, like all shooting sports is misunderstood by the general populace.

Grizzly 45

Hmm.intresting about Aus,as most of them on the FB forums, are bemoaning the fact it is prohibited? Maybe in certain states of Aus?

So, you are looking at the best part of 100 different governments, each with their own firearms laws, recognising it as a sport, not "military" training.

Even in places like China, Japan and Singapore where they shoot it in airsoft,as owning a real gun in those societies is nigh on impossible. Even Zimbabwe allows it, and if there was one place "combat training" would be of benefit to the general populace...:p ...So why do we in the ROI have to be the odd man out...Yet again?:(

SVI40

Grizzly 45, AFAIK, all states in Aus allow / recognise IPSC. Zimbabwe, again, are a very active region, IPSC all the way. As for ROI, I cannot fathom it, except for, despite our history in firearms manufacturing, RoI is very anti shooting.

jb88

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If I had been listened to 25 years ago,we would not only have had practical shotgun but practical pistol and rifle as well. But back then we were no more united or interested in this than we are now.It could be brought back here and in a modified form, could even be shot with the dynamic aspect. But we need a sympathetic ear and enough professionals from both IPSC, and LE as well as military experts to explain to a bunch of particularly dense people, whether by accident or design ,when it comes to firearms, the utter and total difference between CQC"combat training " and a sport,and that IPSC has ZERO relevance to CQC in methodology, firearms, equipment and everything else.:mad::rolleyes:

Given our countrys history it will never happen. Great Idea though.
They are too afraid that a lad with 25 years shooting experience might hit the wrong target and lose some points. OR Worse yet they would be forced to adjudicate over the matter.
But I know a very experienced IPSC guy of your interested in expanding on this.
Cant see it ever happening if there are court cases whenever a lad wants a semi auto shotgun for target shooting.
In 15 years you may get something when the playstation generation matures ;-)

Grizzly 45

One thing I have learned about life here is..Things take time, and if there is someone willing to stick their head above the parapet and shows a strong front, things can change rapidly. We saw what happened after 35 years in NI and the TCO. It took a few good men to say enough is enough.It took more good men and women near on a decade to prove the points in 95% of District court cases,and alot of us all to prove our points in a Dail inquiry, that added another open can of worms to an already embattled police force.

It is a decade since 2008, the political and social landscape has changed,a lot for the worse, some for the better. When our organisations aren't engaging in appendage measuring exercises, they learned that united they can punch well above their weight class.So it is quite possible if certain factors came into play and same songs were sung in tune,we could ask for even a review of this ban. THAT is the hardest thing to do here.:rolleyes:

2011

Unfortunately practical anything is never going to happen in the ROI, end of.

No matter what arguments are put forward it will be regarded as a tactical / combat sport.

If you really want to do it, hop in your car and drive north, I have done this many times.

solarwinds

Sounds a lot like an upcoming referendum.
We don't mind that people do it just as long as you don't do it here.

gunny123

2011 wrote: »

Unfortunately practical anything is never going to happen in the ROI, end of.

I heard the "Pistols will never be licenced in the republic, end of", for decades. But they were and are. Two things happened to sour practical here, the gardai stuck the sherbert in to the then minister, ahern. The second was baron ****ehouse and his bodyguard courses were made public, which i think were illegal in the first place.

So the sport was made impossible through no fault of its own. If a sensible proposal to start practical again in a small way and see how it goes. The fact we are the only country in the world that cannot shoot this sport is a major point for us.

Anyway, it costs nothing to ask.

Cass

2011 wrote: »

Unfortunately practical anything is never going to happen in the ROI, end of.

Had it been managed correctly it would never have been prohibited. Just my own thought.

No matter what arguments are put forward it will be regarded as a tactical / combat sport.

Yet paint ball and even airsoft gets a free pass which IS simulated combat.

Grizzly 45

solarwinds wrote: »

Sounds a lot like an upcoming referendum.
We don't mind that people do it just as long as you don't do it here.

Took the words right out of my keyboard.:

Yet paint ball and even airsoft gets a free pass which IS simulated combat.

Precisely...And one with are classed under our gun law as " restricted firearms"[Paintball]

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

I Two things happened to sour practical here, the gardai stuck the sherbert in to the then minister, ahern. The second was baron ****ehouse and his bodyguard courses were made public, which i think were illegal in the first place.

BG courses per se are not illegal here, as 95% of a BG job is being aware and avoiding any potential threat to your principal. Using a firearm is about 1% of the job, and if you have to draw your weapon, your planning sucked. Baron Underpants, however, was teaching IED recognition and construction, firearms tactics and counter-ambush drills...On VERY shaky legal ground there.Not to mind being photographed with his "house staff" dolled up in the best Ninja kit brandishing MP5's and having a most interesting collection of presumebly[?]deacts in the baronial hall in Co Louth ,which mysteriously caught fire a few years later,[2012]and required the services of the bomb squad to remove even more "interesting items" from the premises when ablaze.

Anyhoo, for anyone interested in the rise and fall of Baron Shortass, the greatest Walt of them all. Even fooled the British govt with his tall tales.. I recommend this link over to Army Rumour Services url]www.arrse.co.uk[/url, and cracking open a can or bottle of your favourite bevvy and settle in for a good read.
https://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/The_Baron_of_Castleshort#.27Operation_JackARRSE.3F.27

I think it was more an unfortunate alignment of many bad stars, Baron Shortarse doing what he was doing in Louth, and smack bang in Dermot Ahern's constituency, the most anti-gun minister for Justice, since that other creep O Malley started the whole sorry mess back in 1972.:mad: The number of handguns and Aherne being put under pressure by the opposition,"I'll smoke where I want. It's mu right."And Great granddaddy of snowflakes, FG Deasy from Waterford. Who felt he was being bullied by nasty Irish gun owners at his remarks about gun ownership. :rolleyes:

The death of Shane Greghoan in Limerick with a criminally held Glock giving that creep Aherne a coat peg to cynically use a death that had nothing to do with ligit gun owners,to hang on his legislation.:mad::mad:

Fuddism in the Irish shooting community didn't help either.:mad:

The IPSC crowd didn't help themselves either.:( The show off assault course with lads shooting off ground on swinging manhole covers and rapid steel shooting scared the bejesus out of the AGS there that day. Yes, we all know that's part of some countries courses of fire, but a bit of easy going,"slow is smooth, smooth is fast and safe" shooting on the day would have put a different face on things...Not to mind the dare I say, the cavalier attitude to any sort of advice or backup plan on what to do if things went wrong. They were growing too fast, too soon and concentrating solely on handguns and ignoring the many hostile blips appearing on their radar screens.:(

So the sport was made impossible through no fault of its own. If a sensible proposal to start practical again in a small way and see how it goes. The fact we are the only country in the world that cannot shoot this sport is a major point for us.

Anyway, it costs nothing to ask

.
Indeed it wouldnt .But who to ask,and will they be willing to stick the head around the corneo on our behalf? Maybe Firearms United might consider this?As we seemingly are the only EU country to prohibit this sport?

2011

Cass wrote: »

Had it been managed correctly it would never have been prohibited. Just my own thought.

As has been mentioned, a few things happened. Some saw an opportunity to make a quick buck which resulted in the sport being shown in a bad light.

Yet paint ball and even airsoft gets a free pass which IS simulated combat.

With all due respect, so what?
Since when were decisions made by the PTB in ireland logical when it comes to firearms law??

I really want to be proved wrong.

Cass

2011 wrote: »

As has been mentioned, a few things happened. Some saw an opportunity to make a quick buck which resulted in the sport being shown in a bad light.

Forget the money side of things some couldn't act mature long enough to try and portray the sport in a good light. Shooting out of silhouette cars, off swings, etc. was never going to endear the PTB to the sport. Its could have been done more tactfully while still preserving the essence of the sport. Not range/sport related, and i've given this before, but once going into a well known RFD shop and i see a lad put on a shoulder harness, place his firearm into it, and go into the shop. He was quickly asked, not too politely, to piss off to whatever bad cop movie he came from. The reason i mention it is the same dick swinging attitudes caused some of this..

The other side of the problem is doing things after they're banned. Practical shotgun, pistol and a host of other sports were largely ignored until they were banned and then people tried to make them appealing and encourage participation from the few that remained (those with license for the firearm needed). Closing the gate after the Horse has bolted comes to mind.

With all due respect, so what?
Since when were decisions made by the PTB in ireland logical when it comes to firearms law??

It has nothing to do with logic. I know, and wouldn't expect anything more from the PTB, and it's not a case of throwing the dummy out of the pram cause we didn't get our way. The reason given for the ban was they didn't want people taking part in "combat" training.

Seriously!!!

As if the ability to hit a static target in a controlled environment turns ordinary people into operators. The same minds that see no problem giving people the ability to ACTUALLY shoot at other people with restricted short firearms and toys, in a realistic type environment is perfectly fine. You know, actual combat (type) training.

2011

Cass wrote: »

It has nothing to do with logic.

I agree with everything in your post, but this sentence sums up the largest obstacle we have to sensible firearms legislation in this country.

I live in hope that I am wrong

Cass

2011 wrote: »

I agree with everything in your post, but this sentence sums up the largest obstacle we have to sensible firearms legislation in this country.

Unless you have someone that understands firearms be involved in drafting legislation it'll never happen.

Sure we've gotten some crumbs thrown to us over the years but never have i known the PTB to repeal or relax an existing law. That is not pessimism just an opinion based on past history.

I live in hope that I am wrong

It would be good to see it, but my biggest concern is the "fear" that the PTB show. Look at semi auto rifle. When a few more started to license them the Minister, after receiving a letter from the so called coalition, stated if too many were licensed she would review their ability to be licensed.

You might find the same happening with restricted shotguns. If you put two identical shotguns beside one another with one unrestricted and the other restricted most people would not be able to tell them apart yet as soon as the word restricted is mentioned most people see a more dangerous and lethal "weapon". This ignorance will be our down fall coupled with our own trying to torpedo any progress.

I hate that most threads like this turn into bitching sessions. I hate that i mention the actions of groups that claim to represent us, but until they are done away with and we get true representation from people that are more concerned with the advancement of the sport over the amount they can make from it we're screwed.

Grizzly 45

Oh yes...And throw this little-verified story into the cauldron...Remember the "gang members going off to Eastern Europe for firearms training and tactics courses!!Shock! Horror! stories and headlines being toted about as 100% fact by AGS?? It is absolute and utter 100% proof BULLSHT media made up story!!

It came about here in Limerick, from a bunch of lads of Munster fame on the piss on a stag night in the Czech Republic of one who was a journalism student or recent grad. They went to a firing range and did the usual story of wasting money firing AKs, etc on full auto at stationary targets.No quick reload drills, fire and move, weapons transitions etc. Just the spray paper on full auto. Our budding journo decided to write a fictitious story about how easy "gang members from Limerick" could "train" to use full auto weapons in East Europe.:rolleyes::rolleyes::mad: The rest, as they say, is history... It went into mainstream media and has become so ingrained in Irish folklore as "fact" that it has featured in the crime series Love/Hate. Just shows how much BS and lies and the power of the media has to shape our lives,and worse that agemcies that should verify thes stories,didnt.:mad:

On another aside,BG courses that just teach you how to shoot are a waste of money and downright dangerous. Ask one of our local gang heads in the LimerickRyan/Keane scuffle that went to Florida to attend one such course...He was shot dead 6weeks later !!:eek::rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

I hate that most threads like this turn into bitching sessions. I hate that i mention the actions of groups that claim to represent us, but until they are done away with and we get true representation from people that are more concerned with the advancement of the sport over the amount they can make from it we're screwed.

I hate to say this, but the parable of belling the cat springs to mind here.It won't change unless we change it or demand change.

Gatling

Cass wrote: »

Had it been managed correctly it would never have been prohibited. Just my own thought.


Yet paint ball and even airsoft gets a free pass which IS simulated combat.

Actually coming from airsoft were not allowed to run 3 gun competition or training and that came directly from the DOJ.

Neither makes sense we run full tactical games and weekend long milsim event following proper ROE and having full chain of commands

Airsoft is military simulation , paintball not so much , tends be more running around spraying and playing.

I'd personally love to take part in real practical shooting ,

I personally don't like static shooting at targets or clays .
I've been to ranges and shot bolt actions and shotguns and others guns stateside it's one of the reasons I've never bothered going though the whole real steel license and gun ownership here .
Practical pistol , rifle , shotgun I'd love to support and take part in

Grizzly 45

Gatling.
Is there any formally written paperwork of this order from the DOJ sent to clubs, reps of airsoft in Ireland? If there is, it would be helpful to see? You can PM and redact it as much as necessary if such exists. Be very helpful to us.

gunny123

What about cowboy action shooting ? Is it shot static or do you move while shooting ?

Its tactical shooting.........1880's style.

Grizzly 45

Can be both depending on the course.But mostly it's static. Unfortunately,it was also thrown to the wolves here by a certain well-known individual in the shooting community back then.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Can be both depending on the course.But mostly it's static. Unfortunately,it was also thrown to the wolves here by a certain well-known individual in the shooting community back then.

How do you mean ? If it is not a practical discipline, eg. you remain static while shooting, how can they ban it ?

Who was the generous individual who gave away someone elses sport ?

Grizzly 45

Ok, a quick rundown in Firearms United gives me the following..To sum it up it is legal in some shape or form ALL over the EU.Even in the UK!

Germany has the "no shoot when running or off the ground" rules on it.No hidden targets and the Parcours must be known. The Greens[naturally enough:mad:]Tried to get it and paintball classified as combat shooting and failed.

Denmark only allows it to be shot with handguns.
Switzerland..yes and combat training
Italy Intrestingly ...
IPSC shooting is even recognized by the Olympic National Committee (albeit not an Olympic discipline), so much so that being a member of FITDS (Italian chapter of IPSC) will be automatically grounds for the exception under the Italian directive implementation scheme.

UK Alive and well. NI apart from S/A CF rifles[Wonder would the MARS system be legal up there?]
Aussie,yup, bar semi-auto rifles, New Zealand, yup,
Canada,Ayuh!
USA, Need you ask??

East Blocers. All legal and good to go. Shoot IPSC,IPDA, combat simulation taught by ex-military, dress up as a stormtrooper if you want to, and some can use FA as well.

Finland and Sweden...Work away

ODD MAN OUT ... IRELAND!:rolleyes: I think we have good reason to ask why? And if the fact that Germany allows it and bans genuine combat training, so much so that even extreme right-wing groups or known neo-nazis are prohibited from playing paintball or airsoft for fear of them using it as combat training] and has a dynamic prohibition as well. It has to be asked why cant we adopt the same thinking and reasoning here??

Uinseann_16

Forgive me for being dense here but what competitions here can be shot with S/A rifles at the moment? Im quite interested in getting a s/a 223 as i like having a semi auto 22 and it seems like a natural enough progression to me:o
I know theres lots more hassle getting a restricted firearm, roughly how much would s/a 223 run here?