Is my child being groomed?

LegacyUser

Going unreg for this as its obviously a sensitive subject.

I have a 4 year old son, very outgoing and social who adores his 11 year old cousin. This cousin has been exhibiting some behaviour which has concerned me and I would appreciate any advice on this.
Although there is a large group of cousins within a similar age bracket, this 11 year boy tends to pal off with my 4 year old. This is a boy who I always thought was a bit strange and manipulative. The parents are divorced and I know he saw some abuse in the marriage in his early childhood. He is a very nervous and anxious boy and is prone to emotional break downs, although his mother maintains he's fine and just of a sensitive nature.
Lately I have noticed that when my son is around, he segregates him from the group and takes off him to play just the 2 of them, occasionally joining in on the wider group play.
This week, which is what really concerned me, he took him off for a walk without asking anybody. I quizzed my 4 year old and he maintains it was just a walk and they came back when he got tired. The 11 year old was spoken to about it and told not to go off again without asking but my concern is why is an 11 year old so intent on hanging around with a 4 year old and segregating themselves. Obviously I know I need to keep an eye on this, its just difficult when its family, I have no proof, just a weird feeling that its not right and I keep saying no to sleep overs, which I have caught the 11 year old whispering to the 4 year a couple of times to 'ask your mam if you can come to my house'. Am I over reacting? 11 seems very young to start grooming a child, would he have the mental capacity to do that? Any advice appreciated.

Neyite

It might not be sinister - the boy may feel more comfortable playing with younger children and enjoy being a kind of role model for your son. Especially if he's a little bit anxious or has other issues. I've a son a year older and his cousin who's 11 and he get on brilliantly like brothers so it's not that odd for an older child to get on well with a younger one. One on one play should not be a cause for concern either.

But it's good practice to have boundaries that apply to all children for general safety and caution. An 11yo is too young to mind a child of that age alone or to take them off for a walk. An accident could occur, or they could still get lost or be approached and neither have the maturity to deal with difficult situations.

Have you had any chats with your son about bodily privacy /autonomy in an age appropriate manner or any of that yet? That's always a good idea, and have rules about secrets as well. Keep chatting to your son and asking questions about his day hanging out with his cousin - I always found bedtime a good time to have a chat about the little cares of the son's day.

Your instincts are telling you something is off and its no harm to be cautious even if it turns out to be nothing.

ahnow

Hi, child/child abuse is much more common than people would think and it is a possibility that that is what’s happening here. You could ask the 11 year old why they wanted to go for a walk with the child, and then tell them you dont want them going off like that, just so that the 11 year old can see you have noticed it.
Abuse can happen very quickly, can last only a split second and can happen when in the company of others so it’s good that you’re keeping an eye on things. A very close eye is recommended.
It could be innocent but if you think something is off it probably is. I would echo what Neyite said and educate your child on body privacy and knowing it’s ok to say no etc. There’s plenty of age appropriate advice on the internet.

Edit: sorry, just re-read that the 11 year old was spoken to about the walk!

The Bishop Basher

Trust your gut. You’re not over reacting.

SuperRabbit

It really could be either. Maybe the 11 year old wants to be able to take care of someone in the way he wasn't taken care of, maybe it feels meaningful for him, like a little brother. It sounds like he's been through a lot.

But maybe not, maybe you are right to feel worried. I don't know what I'd do, but I'd' probably start by talking to the 11 year old. I'd say "You and __________ are really close, aren't you " and then see if he expanded on that, listening to him, asking him open ended questions, giving him a chance to talk about his feelings so you could try and use your grown-up brain to assess what's going on. If there is something wrong, he won't be able to hide it, but if he thinks that you are annoyed he might get very shy about it, even if it is innocent.

I really don't know, it's a very difficult situation and I wish you and your son the best of luck.

Rubberchikken

I agree it could be a sensitive anxious child that finds a younger childs company easier.
But id also keep a close eye. Your child is only 4. He needs to be looked out for. Tbh how would you feel if years later something horrible came of this?

They can play together they just need supervising.

eviltwin

I'd contact the CARI helpline, don't have the number offhand unfortunately, but they are experts in sexual abuse, sexualized behaviour and grooming. They will be able to talk it through with you and give you advice.

Ghekko

Don't leave him in a situation where he can be alone with the 11 year old. If all cousins are playing together make sure your son stays with them. If he veers towards the 11 year old call him back and encourage the 11 year old to join in with the group instead. Go with your gut and whether it's right or wrong it's best that your son is within your sights at all times so as nobody has opportunity to bring him off on his own. Make sure you reiterate that they are all to stay together in the house/garden to the older cousins whenever they get together.

Dial Hard

I think "grooming" is a very strong word to use here. It implies a level of cunning, manipulation and forward planning that I'm not sure is present here or that an 11-year-old is even capable of. I suspect it's as others have said; that he simply feels more comfortable with a younger child: there's less pressure to be cool, less pressure to have his sh*t together, he can regress somewhat to an easier time, etc.

But, as others have also said, it's never too early to have an age-appropriate chat with your son about boundaries, agency over his body and whatnot. You should be doing this anyway, tbh. I wouldn't even bring the cousin into it, make it an "anyone" conversation.

Xterminator

Hi Op

Grooming is a specific behaviour & relates to an intent to abuse a child. As you have no reason to suspect sexual abuse is the motive for befriending your child its totally wrong to use the term grooming. it is at least possible that you are the one with the problem, as opposed to the 11 year old child.


However as a parent if you feel the relationship is suspicious or unhealthy you can and should act accordingly to shield your child.

ManOfMystery

Dial Hard wrote: »

I think "grooming" is a very strong word to use here. It implies a level of cunning, manipulation and forward planning that I'm not sure is present here or that an 11-year-old is even capable of. I suspect it's as others have said; that he simply feels more comfortable with a younger child: there's less pressure to be cool, less pressure to have his sh*t together, he can regress somewhat to an easier time, etc.

But, as others have also said, it's never too early to have an age-appropriate chat with your son about boundaries, agency over his body and whatnot. You should be doing this anyway, tbh. I wouldn't even bring the cousin into it, make it an "anyone" conversation.

You may be right, but don't underestimate what an 11yr-old is capable of. Jamie Bulger was taken away, tortured and murdered by two 10-yr olds. I would hope that that scenario is so far removed from this situation that it shouldn't even be considered, but in this day and age I would certainly be talking to that 11 yr-old and asking him not to go off alone like that again, 

The OP's first priority is to the well-being of his child so whilst I would urge them not to over-react, it is certainly prudent to take some precautions here.

meathstevie

ManOfMystery wrote: »

You may be right, but don't underestimate what an 11yr-old is capable of. Jamie Bulger was taken away, tortured and murdered by two 10-yr olds. I would hope that that scenario is so far removed from this situation that it shouldn't even be considered, but in this day and age I would certainly be talking to that 11 yr-old and asking him not to go off alone like that again, 

The OP's first priority is to the well-being of his child so whilst I would urge them not to over-react, it is certainly prudent to take some precautions here.

I think it may be a bit too far fetched to bring the Jamie Bulger case into this especially since one of the murderers has since been proven to be a callous cold blooded serial offender. That type of extreme characters are fortunately far and few between.

On the other hand some open questions like "What do you guys get up to when you're playing together ?" or "You seem to be getting on really well with your cousin, what do you get up to when you're playing together ?" could shed quite some clarity.

LegacyUser

When I was 4 I loved hanging around with my 11 year old cousin. In fact, I still like the guy 30 years later.

I was an only child, had no brothers and sisters and missed out on that. My cousin had a younger sister that wasn't into boys things so i was the surrogate brother if you like.

If he is an anxious child chances are that the rest of the group of cousins pick up on that and may ostracise him for it. He may feel like an outsider and the only person that listens to him is your boy.

A small bit of affection from a loner does not mean that he is being groomed.

Bear in mind, if you mention this to your family and this turns out to not be the case, be prepared for losing your family and possibly a defamation lawsuit

Not everyone is a paedophile/pederast.

LegacyUser

I couldn't not reply although I'm not really sure how to put this into coherent words. I was sexually abused when I was 10 by a 19 year old "boy" and obviously looking back this was "abuse" and completely his fault. However, when I was even younger - about 6 or possibly 5 - a boy my age who had been around a lot of older kids "experimented" oral sex with me on several occasions. I don't think he had any deviant or sinister intentions (I actually still know him and he is a really sound guy) but obviously it still wasn't okay.
What I'm trying to say (not very well) is that it might be nothing and the 11 year old just finds it easier and less stressful being around a younger person. Or you're instincts could be spot on but, even it the older boy is doing things he shouldn't or being more curious than he should be, it doesn't necessarily mean he is grooming your child or that it could escalate to anything more. Although obviously it needs to be prevented, if it's innocent curiosity then it should be able to be dealt with easily. Your instincts might be correct but you don't need to automatically jump to the very worse possible conclusion.

wiggle16

I think it could be either or. Grooming is, as another poster said, a bit strong for this sort of situation, and in all likelihood there isn't anything sinister going on - but if you get a bad feeling from it, you shouldn't dismiss it outright.

The 11yo could simply find it easier to get along with a 4yo if he has poor social skills or is poorly socialised. He gets to decide everything when theyre together, the 4yo idolises him, he might just like having a little sidekick. And that's fine.

At the same time, i think if the 11yo is pushing for playing together alone, or having sleepovers, you have every right to limit that on the grounds that you don't consider it age appropriate for your son - grooming or sinister behaviour need not come into it.

I don't think youre overreacting but you have no other evidence other than a (very justifiable) bad feeling, so i wouldn't separate them entirely, but treat your 4yo as you would in any other situation: don't let him get into a position where he would be at risk from someone else. If they play, they have to stay where you can see them etc.

I think its probably nothing sinister, but it is a little strange.

never_mind

Not dismissing the OP here but if it were an 11yo girl would you have the same suspicions?

You need to remind yourself that it’s ok to supervise play, particularly with a 4 year old, and that an 11 year old does not have the capacity to look after your child. Start drawing boundaries and consider discussing bodily autonomy with your child.

LegacyUser

Op please trust your gut on this, keep an eye on your son and reinforce with him to come to you if he ever feels uncomfortable. I was in a similar situation as a child, singled out by an older cousin, i don’t remember much of what happened just snippets and the awful feelings of dread and fear when I was alone with him, eventually it got to a point where I told my mother that he made me feel uncomfortable, I was never alone with him again. Fast forward to last year when a younger cousin admitted he abused her over a number of years, I can’t help thinking that it was being comfortable enough to approach my mother that saved me. Just reassure your son that he can come to you whatever the situation

zoobizoo

Calm Down wrote: »

If he is an anxious child chances are that the rest of the group of cousins pick up on that and may ostracise him for it. He may feel like an outsider and the only person that listens to him is your boy.

A small bit of affection from a loner does not mean that he is being groomed.

Bear in mind, if you mention this to your family and this turns out to not be the case, be prepared for losing your family and possibly a defamation lawsuit

Not everyone is a paedophile/pederast.

Think this post says it all.

LegacyUser

My brother was groomed and made to "play" sexual games (abused) when he was 5 years old. The guy who did this to him was around 13 at the time.

None of us knew as they were just "kids together", playing in the other room while the adults were chatting.

My brother is an alcoholic and his life is ruined - he has never got to a headspace to follow up on this and get some counselling or what have you (you can't save a person from themselves), so as so many abused people, he chose escapism instead.

Be very, VERY vigilant, OP. Trust your instincts. An early abuse can absolutely ruin a person's whole life, the damage is so far-reaching. Trust me, I know, and I dearly wish I didn't. Don't gamble with your child's life.

shesty

I don't know if he is being groomed but if I were you I would not let them out of eyeshot when they are all together.And no to sleepovers, end of.It may be totally innocent but you would never forgive yourself if it wasn't. Look at it that way.

SirChenjin

As others have said, not necessarily anything other than a lonely child who sees your little guy as being like a little brother.

Do as you have been doing, keep a very close eye. Make sure you always know where your own child is. If there is an opportunity to encourage the other children to include the older child into whatever they are doing, take it.

Sleepovers would be an absolute no no, in my view anyway, as four is far too young.

LegacyUser

OP here. Thank you for all of your messages and I took them all on board and agreed with many of you. In particular, the ones who said that maybe the fact that he is an anxious child with few friends that he enjoyed the attention my youngest gave him. I also agreed that yes if it was a girl displaying this behaviour it wouldn't have alarmed me as much.
So while we agreed to keep a close eye on it, we thought maybe we were over reacting.
Fast forward to this week when I was putting on my 3 year old's shoes. He started to laugh and said " Do you what's funny Mam, when (Child) was putting on my shoes before he told me to put my foot on his willy, isn't that funny".... My blood ran cold... I quizzed him more on this and he said he did it a few times and it was very funny. I told him he shouldn't have that and had the chat about not touching anyone's underwear areas unless it was me, his dad or a doctor. A few days later we went for a family day out with said boy. He kept trying to take him off by himself but we were watching all the time and seperated them, but my oldest son, who is 13 noticed and got extremely upset that night and said he was worried about what was going on. He didn't sleep all night. And he did not ever hear any conversations about this that we had. We have also since found out that on the last sleep over, a few months ago, that the older cousin got my son out of bed in the middle of the night to play video games. He was quizzed about this too but said they just played video games. I approached my sister about this and she fobbed it off as cousins having fun on a sleepover and I told her he was too young and it wasn't appropriate. She really didn't take me seriously and said I was over reacting. I approached another family member who I trust and told her all of my concerns. She said she understood that I was worried but that it was a bit of a leap to think anything sexually was happening or likely to happen and she warned me to never breath a word of it to anyone else in the family or there would be war. The struggle now is my little lad is constantly on about going for another sleep over, which my sister encourages and when in front of each other, she asks why can't he come. I know we have to keep saying no obviously but some day I'll be asked why I keep refusing.

rainbowtrout

Worried....... wrote: »

Fast forward to this week when I was putting on my 3 year old's shoes. He started to laugh and said " Do you what's funny Mam, when (Child) was putting on my shoes before he told me to put my foot on his willy, isn't that funny".... My blood ran cold... I quizzed him more on this and he said he did it a few times and it was very funny.

That's quite a specific thing he asked your younger child to do and obviously inappropriate, I don't think you are overreacting at all.

Worried....... wrote: »

I approached my sister about this and she fobbed it off as cousins having fun on a sleepover and I told her he was too young and it wasn't appropriate. She really didn't take me seriously and said I was over reacting. I approached another family member who I trust and told her all of my concerns. She said she understood that I was worried but that it was a bit of a leap to think anything sexually was happening or likely to happen and she warned me to never breath a word of it to anyone else in the family or there would be war.

The thing is this cousin is behaving inappropriately. The child might not fully understand what they are doing, but it is not right. And your sister needs to have a chat with her son.

I don't think the family member you spoke to is correct myself. Covering things up and sweeping things under the carpet is how children were abused in the past and nothing was done. You are aware that this cousin is acting inappropriately so at least you can nip it in the bud, but it might come to having to chat to your sister.

I don't have experience of this, as most wouldn't but maybe if you do talk to her keep it factual. 'Mary, I was at home with '3 year old' the other day and she was chatting and said that '11 year old' asked her to touch his willy with her foot several times. She doesn't understand that it's inappropriate as we hadn't had that chat yet, but we have now and I have chatted with her about it, so perhaps you need to talk to '11 year old' in a similar manner. Perhaps point out that he needs this talk sooner rather than later as it's better to nip that behaviour in the bud quickly. It might mean that you don't have to go down the route of suggesting there was anything sexual or abusive about it, but at the same time if she doesn't take you seriously, then you might have to spell it out a bit clearer and tell her that you won't be letting you child stay over until this is sorted. It might also be worth saying that you are able to say this as her sister, but it's not the type of thing she wants a call about from the parent of a friend of his or from his school, if he repeats the behaviour elsewhere, if you really want to get the message home to her.


Your sister is also being a bit of a shit stirrer by winding up your child in front of you by asking why he can't come over.

The Bishop Basher

Worried....... wrote: »

OP here. Thank you for all of your messages and I took them all on board and agreed with many of you. In particular, the ones who said that maybe the fact that he is an anxious child with few friends that he enjoyed the attention my youngest gave him. I also agreed that yes if it was a girl displaying this behaviour it wouldn't have alarmed me as much.
So while we agreed to keep a close eye on it, we thought maybe we were over reacting.
Fast forward to this week when I was putting on my 3 year old's shoes. He started to laugh and said " Do you what's funny Mam, when (Child) was putting on my shoes before he told me to put my foot on his willy, isn't that funny".... My blood ran cold... I quizzed him more on this and he said he did it a few times and it was very funny. I told him he shouldn't have that and had the chat about not touching anyone's underwear areas unless it was me, his dad or a doctor. A few days later we went for a family day out with said boy. He kept trying to take him off by himself but we were watching all the time and seperated them, but my oldest son, who is 13 noticed and got extremely upset that night and said he was worried about what was going on. He didn't sleep all night. And he did not ever hear any conversations about this that we had. We have also since found out that on the last sleep over, a few months ago, that the older cousin got my son out of bed in the middle of the night to play video games. He was quizzed about this too but said they just played video games. I approached my sister about this and she fobbed it off as cousins having fun on a sleepover and I told her he was too young and it wasn't appropriate. She really didn't take me seriously and said I was over reacting. I approached another family member who I trust and told her all of my concerns. She said she understood that I was worried but that it was a bit of a leap to think anything sexually was happening or likely to happen and she warned me to never breath a word of it to anyone else in the family or there would be war. The struggle now is my little lad is constantly on about going for another sleep over, which my sister encourages and when in front of each other, she asks why can't he come. I know we have to keep saying no obviously but some day I'll be asked why I keep refusing.

Honestly you need to trust your gut on this.

It’s rarely wrong.

Your kid is being groomed and sexually abused to some extent. Let’s hope it’s all been “innocent” enough up to now.

I don’t know how you should deal with it as I don’t know your family dynamics but I’d be putting my kid first and would be prepared to walk away from family members over something so serious and damaging to your child.

There’s nothing I wouldn’t do to make sure those two are never ever alone together again.

I really hope this works out ok for you and your son OP..

ahnow

Contact Tusla.
If a man did that to your child it would be considered abuse. It is abuse, and your child is being groomed. Have you told your sister about the foot incident?
I would be very matter of fact about it all, x is not going for sleepover’s at y’s house because of inappropriate behaviour. It’s as simple as that.
I think you need to give Tusla a ring and get them involved because if he’s been grooming your child there will be other children involved down the line at risk. It is now your legal obligation to bring this forward.
Also I know that it’s very difficult to manage around families but your child should not be anywhere near this other child now that you know what you know. Think about it. When your child grows up they’ll wonder why their mother put them anywhere near someone they were abused by, even in family settings. It ****s their boundaries up and ****s with their self work, and how the immediate family deals with it is central to this.
I think you need more help than just posting on boards, you need proper advise because this is far too serious.

LegacyUser

This makes for uncomfortable reading for me. When I was a girl of 9 or 10 my paternal uncle started bringing me for walks. We'd go into a field that had a hill in it and sit down. Then he'd put his hand down into my underwear and feel my private parts and ran my hand over the front of his trousers. This was back in the 1980's when sex education wasn't what it is now and I didn't know what was going on. It didn't really bother me at the time but I think it has had a profound effect on my life right up to this day. Luckily for me, my mother began to worry about these walks and one day asked me some questions. I honestly can't remember what I told her or what was done at an adult level. All I know is that the walks stopped and I don't think I ever spent time on my own with this uncle after that. He has since died and I didn't go to his funeral.

My blood ran cold reading your story. It's not just that this boy is behaving inappropriately towards your son. It's the way it appears to be brushed off by the rest of the family. It goes without saying that you should make sure your son is never left alone with this fella again. What if this fella starts behaving like this towards other children? Now is the time to be looking into what's going on with him so that he doesn't turn into a full-blown kiddie fiddler. It also begs the question - where did his urges come from? Has he been looking at porn? Has someone else been interfering with him? This isn't the sort of matter that should be laughed off or brushed under a carpet. It's serious.

professore

Worried....... wrote: »

OP here. Thank you for all of your messages and I took them all on board and agreed with many of you. In particular, the ones who said that maybe the fact that he is an anxious child with few friends that he enjoyed the attention my youngest gave him. I also agreed that yes if it was a girl displaying this behaviour it wouldn't have alarmed me as much.
So while we agreed to keep a close eye on it, we thought maybe we were over reacting.
Fast forward to this week when I was putting on my 3 year old's shoes. He started to laugh and said " Do you what's funny Mam, when (Child) was putting on my shoes before he told me to put my foot on his willy, isn't that funny".... My blood ran cold... I quizzed him more on this and he said he did it a few times and it was very funny. I told him he shouldn't have that and had the chat about not touching anyone's underwear areas unless it was me, his dad or a doctor. A few days later we went for a family day out with said boy. He kept trying to take him off by himself but we were watching all the time and seperated them, but my oldest son, who is 13 noticed and got extremely upset that night and said he was worried about what was going on. He didn't sleep all night. And he did not ever hear any conversations about this that we had. We have also since found out that on the last sleep over, a few months ago, that the older cousin got my son out of bed in the middle of the night to play video games. He was quizzed about this too but said they just played video games. I approached my sister about this and she fobbed it off as cousins having fun on a sleepover and I told her he was too young and it wasn't appropriate. She really didn't take me seriously and said I was over reacting. I approached another family member who I trust and told her all of my concerns. She said she understood that I was worried but that it was a bit of a leap to think anything sexually was happening or likely to happen and she warned me to never breath a word of it to anyone else in the family or there would be war. The struggle now is my little lad is constantly on about going for another sleep over, which my sister encourages and when in front of each other, she asks why can't he come. I know we have to keep saying no obviously but some day I'll be asked why I keep refusing.

This is simple. Your son comes first. He is in danger. You need to get him out of danger. If that means falling out with your whole family then so be it. It's worth it to prevent him having his life potentially destroyed.

Your sister clearly has huge issues and lives in denial. They are not safe people to be around your kids.

Big Bag of Chips

Did you tell your sister what happened when her son was putting on your son's shoes? That is something you know definitely happened. And it is something that can be very simply and very directly dealt with. She needs to speak to her own child about touching and being touched. She needs to tell him it is inappropriate to touch other people, and to explain it is inappropriate to have other people touch him.

He might be doing this completely of his own accord, or he might be acting out something that was done to him or is being done to him. Either way he is 11 and definitely should be spoken to about it.

You also have to make absolute certain that your child is never in a position to be alone with him. I wouldn't care who would take exception to it, or who I might upset. Your child is your priority.

seenitall

I could have written professore's post myself, OP, word for word.

Please please consider the seriousness of this situation for your child's wellbeing and development, you absolutely have to open up the situation and draw lines in the sand here. Remember how abuse and evil thrive in secrecy and coverups. I would not hesitate one second in telling my sister that her child will not get an opportunity to harm my child, no matter how lovely a family it is or how sisterly a sister she is. Where is your protective parent's instinct? Follow it, please. For your child's sake.

SirChenjin

Please please listen to your own instincts.
Your child relies on you and his dad to keep him safe. He has no idea, naturally enough, that there is anything wrong with what the other child asked him to do. It's a pity that any sleepover was allowed as it would be easier now to keep saying that your child is too young, and that's that.

I certainly would be telling your sister that the subject of sleepovers is not to be brought up again. I know it will be difficult but you really need to tell the other child's parents what has happened. It is possible that the eleven year old has experienced abuse of some description which is leading him to this type of behaviour.

Above all else, keep your child away from the older child.

PressRun

You need to have a conversation with your sister asap and make it very clear what your child told you. Your sister may not believe what you tell her and it could create a falling out, but I would be prepared to put my child first in this situation. Your child is still very young and may not even be able to fully express everything that has happened between him and the cousin. Hopefully it has not escalated beyond what he has told you, but I would be keeping him away from the cousin until a serious conversation has been had with your sister.

It is also important for your sister to know about this behaviour as it could indicate that someone has been doing something like this to her son, which would need investigating also. Where did he pick up this behaviour and why is he imparting it on your son? The child may need counselling.

shesty

My heart kind of stopped a bit when I read that last post.

I don't know what that older child is trying to do,or whether they are doing it innocently or with intent, but I would not be letting my young child anywhere near him.

OP your sister is being a weapon behaving like that. I'd agree with the poster who suggested that a conversation needs to be had with her about talking to her child. As for her asking why your child can't sleep over, I think the answer should probably be fairly blunt - your child has told you of a few incidents that occurred and while she may see it as cousins having fun, you and your OH feel your small child is too small and would prefer that they didn't go to any more sleepovers.

For what it's worth I had plenty of cousin sleepovers and stuff like that never, ever happened....ever. Actually there was a rule among all the parents that we weren't allowed to ask for sleepovers if we were visiting and it was time to go home, because they didn't like being put on the spot.

As for the family member who advised against saying anything - I'm in 2 minds on that. I agree sweeping it under the carpet is the reason that so much abuse happened in the past and should be avoided. But unless you have absolute concrete proof you can't really paint the child as an abuser - they are still only a child at the end of it all. But of course you don't really WANT to have concrete proof because that would be awful. It's hard to know what to do on that one.

But if I were you I'd protect my own child at all costs.

wiggle16

ahnow wrote: »

Contact Tusla.
If a man did that to your child it would be considered abuse. It is abuse, and your child is being groomed.

I would not go contacting Tusla about this. This is not what Tusla is for and would be an overreaction to what has happened.
Her son is not being abused by a man. It's another child. As predatory and calculated as it is, it is not on the same level as abuse by an adult and it can't be dealt with in the same way. You're labelling an 11 year old child an abuser like.

OP, You need to talk to your sister, and tell her what your son told you, and tell her that you believe him. My blood would have ran cold as well to hear that.

She will hardly take it well, but you can't keep it to yourself. She needs to know because she needs to intervene with him - she obviously does not see it for what it is. Your son has given you specific details of what has happened, so she cannot dismiss it. It will be up to her then to consider her son's behaviour with other children he might have contact with.

I think the other family member you spoke to just wasn't taking you seriously.

All you can do is protect your son, he's your priority. It sounds as if he genuinely does not understand the nature of what has happened and doesn't see it as significant, so you have caught it in time - he will probably forget about it completely.

This is an awful situation to find yourself in, but you have to tell your sister. She needs to know so that she can intervene appropriately.

Big Bag of Chips

wiggle16 wrote: »

I would not go contacting Tusla about this. This is not what Tusla is for and would be an overreaction to what has happened.
Her son is not being abused by a man. It's another child. As predatory and calculated as it is, it is not on the same level as abuse by an adult and it can't be dealt with in the same way. You're labelling an 11 year old child an abuser like.

This is exactly what Tusla are for. It is irrelevant how old the people involved are. Tulsa are there to safeguard children. All children. The 11 year old is a child. And even recognising that the 11 year old is "predatory and calculated" shows that this child needs intervention to make sure HE is not at risk of being/being abused. (Maybe a slightly older child is doing the same with him?)

I work with children and would have links with Tusla. I know of a 5 and 3 year old brother and sister in foster care who were displaying sexualised behaviour towards each other. That absolutely HAD to be reported. The fact that they were both children was irrelevant.

You can ring Tusla to ask for advice. They will then be able to advise correct paths to take. If your sister is not willing to face this and consent to speaking to them then I'm not sure what can be done. But there is no harm ringing and asking.

Owryan

You most certainly can ring tusla and speak to someone one, they can advise you over the phone on possible actions and if they feel there is any risk they will look for you to make a referral to them.

My concern would be that the older child's behaviour is not normal and they are possibly acting out something that they saw or experienced. Either way, if you feel your child is in danger you need to take steps to protect them. One of those steps would be to speak to someone in tusla like the duty social worker for your locale.

ahnow

I’m not labelling the child a child abuser-although the behaviour can be considered abuse-can it not? Child on child abuse situations are really complex and specialists should be involved for a number of different reasons. Firstly is the cousin being abused? Is that where he has learned the behaviour? Is he grooming other children? A simple talking to by parents is not enough and I think that others need to be involved because it’s not as simple as that.
As someone who was abused as a child themselves it is not an over reaction, how the parents deal with it and how the family deals with it going forward is going to majorly affect the outcomes of their child. I think outside professionals absolutely need to be involved, especially so because they’re dealing with another child.

And actually from a legal stand point because this has happened she is under obligation to report it now as the safety of children has been called into question. I’m not labelling the other child anything, but I’m not going to underestimate the seriousness of the situation just because he is a child. He needs help as well.

wiggle16 wrote: »

I would not go contacting Tusla about this. This is not what Tusla is for and would be an overreaction to what has happened.
Her son is not being abused by a man. It's another child. As predatory and calculated as it is, it is not on the same level as abuse by an adult and it can't be dealt with in the same way. You're labelling an 11 year old child an abuser like.

OP, You need to talk to your sister, and tell her what your son told you, and tell her that you believe him. My blood would have ran cold as well to hear that.

She will hardly take it well, but you can't keep it to yourself. She needs to know because she needs to intervene with him - she obviously does not see it for what it is. Your son has given you specific details of what has happened, so she cannot dismiss it. It will be up to her then to consider her son's behaviour with other children he might have contact with.

I think the other family member you spoke to just wasn't taking you seriously.

All you can do is protect your son, he's your priority. It sounds as if he genuinely does not understand the nature of what has happened and doesn't see it as significant, so you have caught it in time - he will probably forget about it completely.

This is an awful situation to find yourself in, but you have to tell your sister. She needs to know so that she can intervene appropriately.

wiggle16

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

This is exactly what Tusla are for. It is irrelevant how old the people involved are. Tulsa are there to safeguard children. All children. The 11 year old is a child. And even recognising that the 11 year old is "predatory and calculated" shows that this child needs intervention to make sure HE is not at risk of being/being abused. (Maybe a slightly older child is doing the same with him?)

I think I probably need to clarify.

I meant that the OP should not go reporting this to Tusla, without speaking to her sister, which is what I believed the poster I was quoting meant. I do not think that social workers turning up on OP's sister's doorstep unannounced are a good idea at this point, and that's what I inferred from the post. I was likely mistaken. But either way I think that kind of escalation is not appropriate at this point without having spoken to her sister. My reference to age was not given as a reason not to involve Tusla, it was to point out it was not a man doing it, but a child, and it's not fair to compare them. One constitutes a criminal offence. A child is not considered capable of committing a crime.

The example you are citing is slightly different because you were a third party to what was happening - your only option was to contact Tusla, and you were completely right. Of course that had to be reported. Just as the OP does need to tell her sister.

By all means, yes, of course contact Tusla for advice and guidance. I do think the OP needs to tell her sister, regardless. She needs to safeguard her child also, if he is getting this behaviour from elsewhere.

Hannibal_Smith

OP you are your child's mother. He is depending on you. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, it's not your fault and I'm not trying to make it sound as of it is. But your suspicions were aroused. Fair enough. But now you have language from your child which supports your decision. You have only one allegiance here and it's who the child who in years to come will remember what went on with his older cousin and who he voiced it to (albeit in the innocent way he understands) and nonetheless it continued. You have got to do all you can now. You are not in the wrong. Your child is not in the wrong. If he had punched your kid, you'd react. So the same now . Say what your kid said to the kids mother. Deal with it.

wiggle16

ahnow wrote: »

I’m not labelling the child a child abuser-although the behaviour can be considered abuse-can it not? Child on child abuse situations are really complex and specialists should be involved for a number of different reasons. Firstly is the cousin being abused? Is that where he has learned the behaviour? Is he grooming other children? A simple talking to by parents is not enough and I think that others need to be involved because it’s not as simple as that.
As someone who was abused as a child themselves it is not an over reaction, how the parents deal with it and how the family deals with it going forward is going to majorly affect the outcomes of their child.....

How the parents all deal with it is exactly my point.

Tusla are there to intervene where children are being abused or where they are at risk of being abused. They are your only option if you are a third party to the situation. In this instance, the primary care givers of both children are sisters. The OP never gave any indication that she believes the older boy himself at risk in the home. Escalating this to Tusla without speaking to her sister would certainly be an overreaction at this point because she would effectively be reporting her sister to social services, unannounced. And part of the OP's concern is how to deal with her sister - that isn't a small detail. How they all deal with it is extremely important.

If she speaks to her sister, she can tell her what her son has told her and that she believes him. The sister can (hopefully) then speak to her own son, and if he does tell her that he himself is being or has been abused, then she/they can escalate it to Tusla and the Gardaí as appropriate.

Again I should clarify that I obviously don't mean a simple talking to. The older boy certainly needs psychological intervention and help, not just a talking to. That should happen whether or not Tusla are involved. If all parents are satisfied that this is isolated, unlearned behaviour, then by referring the child(ren) to psychologists they are taking steps to prevent abuse and need not report it to Tusla. Referral to a therapist will quickly root out if this behaviour is actually idiopathic or if it's been learned elsewhere - in which case it will be reported to Tusla anyway.

My point is that this is not a situation where you should be straight on the phone to Tusla (which is what I believed you meant). Both sisters should (and I hope will) co-operate to resolve it. Certainly she can contact them for advice.

I know child on child abuse is very complex - but whether this constitutes abuse or not isn't really important (though I agree and think it does). The older boy has a probably sexual fixation with his younger cousin and is being very calculating in gaining access to him, and now it appears he's initiating physical contact with him. It doesn't really matter what we call it. He's aware what he is doing is wrong, because he is hiding it. But the situation the OP finds herself in is far more common than people think. However I do see what you mean now, and I'll withdraw saying you're labelling the child an abuser. Apologies.

Malayalam

I absolutely never had any suspicion that the 12 year old boy who seemed to be so patient with and interested in my 3 year old son had any ulterior motives. We were newly arrived to a very rural area, and these were a family we had met a few times previously whose child seemed to be so good natured. A few days in, and though the boys were always there nearby me if the older child visited, in the small garden, on the steps of the house, never wandered off, but still my little lad came to me and said X had put his hand into his pants to feel his willy.
After giving him a hug and telling he was good and clever to say something so quickly, I was straight up to the house of the parents of the older child. Told them bluntly what had happened, told them to deal with their child, told them that he was not to visit our house again. It was distressing, and a very charged encounter, because the parents reacted so badly, roaring at me, making me out to be evil to make up such lies, etc. But even though I hate conflict and would be reclusive by nature - this encounter was completely outside my comfort zone, and had all the high reactions and ugly responses one would most dread - still at that moment my instincts had kicked in and I really did not give one fcuk.
Yeah, so talk to your very small children about their bodies and their right to bodily privacy and be wary of older kids who take an interest in them.
I don't know if I would say it is ''grooming''. Maybe a big pre-pubescent surge in testosterone in the older boy that leaves them confused and full of strange new desires and curiosity. I don't know. Either way your duty is to protect your child. Whatever it takes.

Flippyfloppy

wiggle16 wrote: »

If she speaks to her sister, she can tell her what her son has told her and that she believes him. The sister can (hopefully) then speak to her own son, and if he does tell her that he himself is being or has been abused, then she/they can escalate it to Tusla and the Gardaí as appropriate.

There are a lot of variables in the situation you're predicting. I doubt it would all play out so simply, judging by the reaction of the first family member OP spoke to.

OP has a duty to her child. Her child will need to link in with services from Tusla too. That should not be dependent on OPs sisters reaction to this development and whether she decides Tusla need to be involved. OP can make that call herself, its obvious they do need to be involved.

Ursus Horribilis

It's not entirely clear from your post if you mentioned the "willy" incident to the boy's mother. If you have, I'm shocked that she's reacting the way she is. I wonder if she's still in denial now? Regardless of what this boy's motives are, this needs to be dealt with before he gets older. Bad and all as it is to be "inappropriate" with his cousin, at least the matter is being contained within the family for now. If he branches out and does something to someone else's child, it's going to go nuclear. And rightly so.

AttentionBebe

OP please trust your instincts. It's estimated that as much as 40% of child sexual abuse is perpetrated by older children. It's possible that your sister will cut you off in anger/denial but nothing is more important here than protecting your own child.

leggo

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

It's not entirely clear from your post if you mentioned the "willy" incident to the boy's mother. If you have, I'm shocked that she's reacting the way she is. I wonder if she's still in denial now? Regardless of what this boy's motives are, this needs to be dealt with before he gets older. Bad and all as it is to be "inappropriate" with his cousin, at least the matter is being contained within the family for now. If he branches out and does something to someone else's child, it's going to go nuclear. And rightly so.

I'd be saddened but not shocked. A mother's instinct is always, always to protect their child, first and foremost, and when accusations this serious are levelled you're just not going to believe it at first. And then you've got to weigh up the natural guilt that's going to kick in if they didn't identify this issue within their child, how they might've missed whatever led to this, and so on. All of that is before if they're actually a responsible parent who'll act on this or even know what to do/bother doing it, then you have to consider the daunting prospect of considering if they perpetrated or were complicit in it. I'd have put money on their initial reaction to be resisting it and they shouldn't be judged too harshly for that, but what's telling is what happens next.

OP it goes without saying to keep your eye on this situation and keep your own child away from the cousin. You've done really well spotting this before (presumably) anything serious occurred, explaining what's inappropriate etc, and I'd trust from that that you'll do well going forward in knowing how to explain boundaries and that what the cousin did was bold etc. There's no one hard and fast way to handle this but your instincts are dead on here so trust them and don't doubt yourself. I'd also monitor the situation with the other child. It's worth gently following up on it shortly to see if your sister has acted on the info you gave her. She should come to terms with it eventually and deal with it. If she does, then this shouldn't linger as a grudge or awkward topic, by right she should thank you for highlighting it if anything. If she starts backing off and cutting you out, I'd see that as a sign that she's in total denial and that's when you have to start considering getting Tusla involved because other children are then in danger.

Best case scenario this could just be a hormonal, pre-adolescent acting out a bit inappropriately (without understanding that) and needing this behaviour to be nipped in the bud, and they can come back from it and be a perfectly healthy, functional member of society in the future. But it absolutely needs to be addressed in some form and can't just be forgotten about.

wiggle16

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

There are a lot of variables in the situation you're predicting. I doubt it would all play out so simply, judging by the reaction of the first family member OP spoke to.

OP has a duty to her child. Her child will need to link in with services from Tusla too. That should not be dependent on OPs sisters reaction to this development and whether she decides Tusla need to be involved. OP can make that call herself, its obvious they do need to be involved.

I very much doubt it will all play out so simply too.

However what is not going to make this situation simpler is reporting it to Tusla straight away.
If you were the OP's sister, what would you honestly think your reaction would be if the first you heard of this was from Tusla, rather than from her?
Do you think it would make you more likely to believe OP's son and cooperate, or less likely? I cannot believe how reactionary people are being.

I am not saying "don't get Tusla involved EVER in this."
I am saying OP should speak to her sister first. The sister is not the same person as the first, morally lazy family member. You cannot assume she will react with anything other than concern for her child, and shock.

And maybe she won't take it well, and will put her head in the sand - calling Tusla unannounced is not going to prevent that reaction, it will make it more likely. It's effectively the same as reporting to Tusla. The OP is asking how she should go about this, and her first port of call should absolutely be to her sister, end of.

Testosterone surges by as much as ten times the pre-pubescent level in adolescents as puberty hits, and along with sexual feelings that can be difficult to handle it also increases the likelihood of risk-taking behaviours by a substantial margin. In other words, he might know what he's doing is wrong and not only keep doing it but escalate the behaviour. He needs help, and your little chap needs protection. The lad may or may not have learned this behaviour through abuse, and either way he needs to understand boundaries and limits and what is and isn't acceptable as a best-case scenario, and help with dealing with any abuse he suffered himself and skills to avoid repeating it, as a worse-case scenario.

Your little fella has you to look out for him and you're doing a great job with those spot-on instincts. If nobody is going to take this seriously enough to look out for the eleven year old then you absolutely have to report the situation to whatever agency can give him the intervention and help he need to avoid him becoming a dangerous adult with a ruined life of his own and devastation in his wake. The sooner the better.

Good luck, it's a dreadful position to be in.

never_mind

I'd agree that going to Tusla at the outset is a bit much as we are dealing with two children. Of course Tusla will always be there to advise but I would think that talking to your sister first would be good. Either way you can contact Tusla and start following protocol. If the shoe was on the other foot OP which would you prefer? I think being taken aside for a quiet chat first before taking it to another level would be advisable.

valoren

I take the OP to mean that she said it to the older cousins mother, her sister, about them going off together alone.
She then confided in her other sister about everything including the incident. Now when talk of sleepovers crop up, to which OP is reluctant, this other sister, is being a **** stirring idiot, asking aloud why not, despite knowing everything and failing to realize how difficult and potentially incendiary the situation is.

I'd take the 'willy' incident as clear cut grooming. It's not something a little boy will lie about. The key to seeing this as grooming is that he regards this as funny. He is being groomed to equate touching privates as 'funny'. You're lucky it's been caught early. The touching privates is with genitals inside clothing. The more time the cousin will spend with your son, soon putting his hand on his cousins 'willy' will then be deemed funny, then it wouldn't it be 'funny' if your son were to kiss his cousins willy? Your son will think it's actually funny not knowing the reality of what is happening yet. The cousin clearly hasn't understood what boundaries are, that it's not acceptable to be playing footsie with a child.

A possible way to diffuse this would be to allow the cousin to go for walks with your son but you say almost absentmindedly that "You know what, I think I'll join you both as well", then go off and chaperone them 'playing'. Do it every time, even alternate it with your husband and he'll soon stop asking or trying to get your son alone.

spaceHopper

If you contact TUSLA there is no going back so be 110% sure before you so. It's hard to tell from your last post if you spoke to your sister and family member before or after the shoe insistent. Why is your older son not closer to his cousin. To me he is key he could well know more but doesn't know how to tell you. It's also hard to talk face to face. Side by side could be a lot easier. Take him for a drive in the car. Make sure he knows he's not in trouble that he is a good kid. Tell him you are worried about his little brother and ask him if something happend.

TheBoyConor

To be honest there is no going back from this.

If I were the OP, the older child's card would be forever marked with me. I'd not want them around my family or house ever again.

The strain could be in him for serious child sex abuse.

The first port of call needs to be a calling out of the parents on the issue. Perhaps the child is being abused by the father or grandfather? Who knows.
What is the boy's father like? Would there by any tell tale signs about him that might hint at some potential for impropriety? - I'd not be leaving my children do any sleepovers in that house.

And another thing about sleep overs - if you are aware that there is child sex abuse potentially happening in that house and you fail to do anything about it and continue to permit sleepovers then In my opinion you would be culpable and answerable for any abuse that occurs because you knowingly put the child in that situation knowing what could happen.

I think tusla should be told because what if there is serious abuse in the future from this child. Then this will be on record and could help any future case that a future victim might bring.

Be prepared to cut the sister and her family from your life because, lets face it, these are serious things and when the issue is child sex abuse there can be no measures off the table for dealing with it. And I think tusla absolutely should be called at least to give advice.

And as for the other family member who you told and she advised to say nothing and not breath a word of it to anyone ever again should be ashamed of herself. That's the smothering and brushing under the carpet that facilitated rampant child sex abuse the length and breath of this country for decades. I think she should be called out and shamed alongside your sister.

never_mind

Another thing that hasn't been really spoken about is how your son was put in a position to have his 'willy' touched by the cousin's foot or how a sleepover came to happen? OP, were you allowing the children to be alone together???