Survey Done - But not sure how to proceed with negotiations...

pdmc

Along with my other half, I am currently 'Sale Agreed' on the purchase of a house and on the sale of our apartment. So, while it's not my first transaction, it's quite a new experience in a few ways, which I'll explain. We've paid our deposit and had a survey carried out on the house but the process has now stalled somewhat as my solicitor is entirely unresponsive and therefore no use to me as an advisor and the surveyor has gone to ground since the evening after issuing the report. As all of the documents relating to both sales are probably well progressed now, I'm reluctant to countenance switching solicitors at this point.

The difference between my last purchase and this one and the reason I feel my previous experience isn't benefiting me at all this time around is that the last time I purchased it was a 'new-build' and part of a 'multi-unit development' with mains water and sewage connections. The house I'm buying is a detached bungalow on just over a half acre in the countryside on a group water scheme and with a septic tank. This brings with it numerous concerns that apartment buyers don't have, namely: Septic Tank, Percolation Area, Water Supply, Boundaries, Sight Lines, etc... As I'm learning, it's so much more stressful than buying a house or apartment in a development!

I'm here with this post because my survey has come back with a few issues and I'm sort of caught in the headlights at the moment. The Septic Tank (Advanced Treatment System) was all blocked up and backing up to the access/inspection points around the house. The engineer concluded that it was blocked up entirely and needed immediate attention (servicing/desludging) but he couldn't imagine that the seller would want to cough up for this (amusing!). I don't believe that this is a hugely expensive business but I also don't wish to purchase someone else's waste backed up to the threshold of the house, so I intended to ask that the system be serviced.

What does everyone think of this? Is this unreasonable of me or not? I would've thought it was plain common decency and part of the preparations for sale to ensure that the system was working and in a good state of repair. I don't think I should be expected to desludge the vendor's waste from the system post purchase and at my own cost. IMHO I think the vendor should've done this in advance of placing the property on the market, not to mention in advance of a survey as to do otherwise just seems irresponsible. Another related issue, but not contributing to the backing up of the system, is that the percolation area does not comply with the building regulations at the time of construction.

The engineer said this was mostly very well done, compared to most houses he sees, but even so it still didn't comply in two ways. There was land drainage pipe used for the run off to the percolation area, and there were only 3 run off outlets when there ought to have been 4. He also couldn't determine the exact area/size of the percolation area and so he wasn't sure if this was compliant. The house currently caters for 2 adults and 2 children and if we do buy 99% of the time it will cater for just 2 adults. On this basis the engineer said that as there was no evidence of an issue with the percolation area, functionally, but it would be all the better off once the tank is serviced and the system is under less demand. He couldn't foresee any issues once we kept it serviced. So, he said it would only represent a problem if the system were inspected and found to be non-compliant. We would then be liable for the costs to bring it in line with regulations. The engineer also said, off the record, that he didn't think this was very likely.

There are other issues too, whereby the surveyor has called out aspects of the roof structure that need reinforcement due to "deflection" in certain support beams (it's not an old house, less than 20 y/o, so it's stood some time already without collapsing). Now, he has said the building is structurally sound, and in a good state of repair and decorative order, generally, but he also advised that this reinforcement should be done for peace of mind. He is an engineer after-all, so he's erring on side of caution.

Most of the other matters with the property were more issues relating to maintenance, which had been overlooked or neglected. Gutters leaking, some slightly damaged, missing brackets or detached from the fascia in one area. The garage gutters were leaking throughout. For me, this looks like a case of just needing to clean and reseal the gutters, as they are aluminium and mostly maintenance free. The owner seems to have misunderstood how maintenance free, but I'd be willing to overlook this. The gutters wouldn't make my list of things to be addressed. However, despite all of the issues flagged, the surveyor described the property as a "fine house", a "good house" and a "very nice house" at various points when we spoke on the phone. He also added that "nothing in the report should put you off buying this house". However, some of the items do need to be considered with respect to the final bid made by myself and accepted by the vendors.

There are two final things that I need to consider in handling these negotiations:

1. The vendors will actually be neighbours once we move, as they are building a new property nearby.
2. The house is on a group water scheme and almost all of the neighbours are family of the vendors...

I would like to be on good terms with everyone from the start I do not wish to appear belligerent in negotiations - however neither do I wish to be taken for a fool.

I know some people are going to think this a total horror show and advise that we cut and run, but of the many properties we've seen, this is the property we want most and really want it to work out.

My main question and the entire point of this post is - after all of the above - this: When I revert to the Selling Agent, do I simply mention each of the items of most concern? Do I provide the Surveyor's Report with my message? Do I provide excerpts of the report as corroboration of my list (I've actually prepared and was going to submit this)? Do I list certain demands to be met before I'll sign a contract? Do I use these items to negotiate a reduction in the purchase price? Should there be a redline item? Or should it be all of the above - List+Reduction+Report Extracts-Red-Line Issues?

Does anyone have any experience of this or similar issues that influenced their purchase or their decision to revise an offer? The *alleged* "under bidder" offered the asking price and was a meagre €1,500 below our winning bid, so if they exist, the vendor would have the option to revert to them.

Any advice at all will be MOST welcome!

drunkmonkey

Ask for discount if they won't fix the septic tank. You don't know what your getting into until someone goes at it.
I'd ask for 4k off. They won't be long about draining it. I presume there's no one living there as if it was that backed up it would be lifting manholes at this stage.

Alkers

You will never get a clean survey report and it doesn't sound like you've got a bad one, sceptic tank aside.
It is common place to renegotiate an offer based on the survey report, but with the market the way it is at the moment, there's nothing stopping the seller from going to the next highest bidder if they get the impression you are a time waster or are changing your arm.
I would ring around and get some quotes to put the sceptic tank and structural reinforcement right and then decide how much to reduce your offer by. You could write a letter to the seller and include the extracts from the survey and your estimates along with your updated offer. I'd probably settle for splitting the costs 50:50 personally.
As far the gutters, brackets and that, these would have been reasonably evident when your viewed the house so I would forget about them until you own the place. If I was selling and someone tried to renegotiate about trivial items such as those, I would tell them to walk.

pdmc

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ask for discount if they won't fix the septic tank. You don't know what your getting into until someone goes at it.
I'd ask for 4k off. They won't be long about draining it. I presume there's no one living there as if it was that backed up it would be lifting manholes at this stage.

The survey report included photographs of the access junctions with the lids off, and the ... liquids ... were sitting about two inches from the black plastic lids that fit flush with the footpath running around the house. They actually are currently living in the property.

pdmc

Simona1986 wrote: »

You will never get a clean survey report and it doesn't sound like you've got a bad one, sceptic tank aside.
It is common place to renegotiate an offer based on the survey report, but with the market the way it is at the moment, there's nothing stopping the seller from going to the next highest bidder if they get the impression you are a time waster or are changing your arm.
I would ring around and get some quotes to put the sceptic tank and structural reinforcement right and then decide how much to reduce your offer by. You could write a letter to the seller and include the extracts from the survey and your estimates along with your updated offer. I'd probably settle for splitting the costs 50:50 personally.
As far the gutters, brackets and that, these would have been reasonably evident when your viewed the house so I would forget about them until you own the place. If I was selling and someone tried to renegotiate about trivial items such as those, I would tell them to walk.

The market is fairly flat in the area this house is in as it is just far enough from Dublin to be off the radar for most. I'm quite observant, so I'd argue that the surveyor's ladder and access to the roof allowed him an advantage in identifying these gutter issues. The gutters aren't really an issue for us though, as I'd do those myself on a random Saturday. I wouldn't include them in any list for the seller as, like you, I'd think it sounded a bit ridiculous to make that a thing. If someone raised those with me I'd also tell them to jog on.

Thanks for your comments!

Marcusm

pdmc wrote: »

The market is fairly flat in the area this house is in as it is just far enough from Dublin to be off the radar for most. I'm quite observant, so I'd argue that the surveyor's ladder and access to the roof allowed him an advantage in identifying these gutter issues. The gutters aren't really an issue for us though, as I'd do those myself on a random Saturday. I wouldn't include them in any list for the seller as, like you, I'd think it sounded a bit ridiculous to make that a thing. If someone raised those with me I'd also tell them to jog on.

Thanks for your comments!

Find out how much it would cost to empty the septic tank. I suspect not much and that issue is effectively like the gutters, albeit not diy. The non-compliance is a different issue and depending on the seriousness of the comments might affect mortgageability of the property - "good marketable title" generally means material compliance with regulations.

listermint

Purchased a property last year not dissimilar condition to that. Although the septic was not backing up as the house was idle for 3 years. It did become backed up once we moved in a few months.

The main feed pipe to the septic had subsided at a straight junction and was causing a minor leak but a location to stop anything passing through for enough time to back it up.

I rented a digger and fixed it for the cost of a 6 euro connection and the digger rental 100 euro.

Anyways my point is you won't find a clean survey Perlins can't be strengthened very easily with bracing and as for the septic I'd ask that it's cleaned now and a camera is done on it to confirm there are no breaks. This is reasonable request prior to sale.

drunkmonkey

pdmc wrote: »

The survey report included photographs of the access junctions with the lids off, and the ... liquids ... were sitting about two inches from the black plastic lids that fit flush with the footpath running around the house. They actually are currently living in the property.

Ah here they literally have **** pumping around outside the house, how's everything else with the house. If there not prepared to at least do that where else did they skimp on or what needes doing up/fixing.
Do you think you over paid a bit now could be the time to haggle a bit, got a feeling you didn't trust the other bidder was real.

Have you agreed what's coming with the house etc, if there building a new house close by they might want to take the garden shed, curtains etc.

riclad

Ask for a discount,
give them a copy of the survey,
or simply say can i get 4k off,
or will you arrange to fix the tank in the next few weeks.
you will need maybe see a receipt ,
eg repairs carried out by j.bloggs plumbing ltd ,on may 2018,
etc and maybe be given permission to inspect the pipes, manholes
to check there is no backup,or blockages ,
before the sale proceeds .

eg can you either give me 4k off the price ,
or else carry out the repairs by a certain date.
They may not realise how serious the plumbing problems ,
or how costly they are to repair.
maybe give them part of the survey which mentions the plumbing problem

the_syco

pdmc wrote: »

1. The vendors will actually be neighbours once we move, as they are building a new property nearby.

With the gutters, etc, it seems rather than fix the issues, they're building a house, and seeing can they get anything for the old house.

Get quotes on how much it'll cost to fix the septic tank, treble the figure, and see if you can get that off the price of the house.

drunkmonkey

It does sound like there just building the new house with your money, they obiviously don't have any other money if they couldn't stretch to the €200 to empty the tank.
I don't care if there selling it there's no excuse for letting poop flow outside the house.
I'd be tempted to reassess the whole deal and even look at building costs versus what your paying.
You'd be surprised how much your down by the time you fix a few things, remodel a few bathrooms, change the kitchen etc. It might not be that great value at all.

listermint

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It does sound like there just building the new house with your money, they obiviously don't have any other money if they couldn't stretch to the €200 to empty the tank.
I don't care if there selling it there's no excuse for letting poop flow outside the house.
I'd be tempted to reassess the whole deal and even look at building costs versus what your paying.
You'd be surprised how much your down by the time you fix a few things, remodel a few bathrooms, change the kitchen etc. It might not be that great value at all.

Building cost.... We have this thing called local needs in this country. And it's a law that removes that ability for the majority

drunkmonkey

listermint wrote: »

Building cost.... We have this thing called local needs in this country. And it's a law that removes that ability for the majority

That's why I'm dubious about the other bidder, I don't think it was a local or even existed. OP sounded a bit like he didn't believe it.
I'd be inclined to start revising my offer back down to where the other bidder appeared.

Baybay

If a septic tank is working correctly, it shouldn't need emptying so in my opinion, just having them empty it as a condition of sale might not solve the backing up problem. Unless they are incredibly careless of what goes down their drains. Include it as a condition anyway but also consider asking for replacement costs to be deducted from the sale price. This will obviously not go down well so itemise every issue your surveyor has noted when you speak to the agent & say that while the other issues are serious, you're prepared to let them go, if indeed you are.
In my opinion, I would not contact the seller directly especially as you'll be living close by. Negotiations are what agents are for.

drunkmonkey

Septic tanks do need emptying. I found out the hard way when we bought the house we were told it was connected to the local sewerage scheme. It wasn't until a man hole popped open we realised it was still connected to the old septic tank. The whole thing ebeded up costing us about 3k by the time it was sorted.
Neighbours weren't happy when we started digging up the green infront our there houses as our septic tank was outisde our back wall and in there front, thankfully our solicitor was smart enough to get a wayleave in case something happened and we needed to get access to it. That cost the seller 2k at the time when we were buying.
I'd have no qualms about asking for 4/5k off, maybe they know more about the problems with the waste system.

Baybay

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Septic tanks do need emptying. I found out the hard way when we bought the house we were told it was connected to the local sewerage scheme. It wasn't until a man hole popped open we realised it was still connected to the old septic tank.

As I said, if they are working correctly. Yours clearly was not. What did your surveyor say when you got back to him?

Victor

I would ask that the septic tank be serviced promptly such that you / your engineer can be satisfied that it works. Your solicitor will likely seek a certificate of compliance for building regulations, so this can be used to put pressure on the vendor.

drunkmonkey

Baybay wrote: »

As I said, if they are working correctly. Yours clearly was not. What did your surveyor say when you got back to him?

What could anyone say, it was meant to be connected and the previous owner paid the developer to do it. Nama had since taken it over and the old owner and developer had since passed away. It was a blessing in a way as the houses on it have had a nightmare.
It still needs to be emptied/de sludged every couple of years though.

listermint

Baybay wrote: »

As I said, if they are working correctly. Yours clearly was not. What did your surveyor say when you got back to him?

Sorry but that is nonsense.

You realise that the most common problems with the waste is edgits in the house putting baby wipes down the toilet. That is nothing to do with the performance of the septic tank .


Know your subject matter..

drunkmonkey

We've an inskerator as well which I'd say adds extra build up. Wouldn't be without it though.

Baybay

listermint wrote: »

You realise that the most common problems with the waste is edgits in the house putting baby wipes down the toilet. That is nothing to do with the performance of the septic tank.

Exactly. Plus overuse of bacteria-destroying chemicals.

drunkmonkey

If it's there a good while it's possible the soakage pit needs to be replaced.

pdmc

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ah here they literally have **** pumping around outside the house, how's everything else with the house. If there not prepared to at least do that where else did they skimp on or what needes doing up/fixing.
Do you think you over paid a bit now could be the time to haggle a bit, got a feeling you didn't trust the other bidder was real.

Have you agreed what's coming with the house etc, if there building a new house close by they might want to take the garden shed, curtains etc.

Thanks so much to all for all of the great feedback. This is more than I expected! You're giving me the confidence to stick it to them now, as they aren't so much taking the p... as brazenly leaving it.

There are no bathroom accessories on the walls in the main bathroom, and the engineer pointed out the holes left in the bathroom tiles where these were. There is no toilet seat/lid on the en-suite loo and the handle for the flusher is broken. These are cheap items and I found it very peculiar not to replace such minor items prior to marketing the property, as at home I replaced anything broken or tired looking, but I was willing to overlook. My very first impression of this was that the person selling was saving hard and not willing to spend a penny on the current house as it wasn't going to be their problem anymore.

So, although externally there are signs the vendor hasn't been bothered to keep up the maintenance (if they ever did) the house is in rather good decorative order inside, well aired, no damp, just 3 hairline small cracks and neatly, neutrally decorated, there are a few items that I felt looked like the vendors are a bit ... tight. You've just also made me realise that while they talked up the fact that they're including the brand new black out blinds, the curtains weren't mentioned. I'll have to ask about those too, as I'm leaving all of mine behind in the current place. The garden 'shed', is more like a block built mini-garage - so they won't be taking that. Bigger than a shed, but too small for the average car.

pdmc

listermint wrote: »

Building cost.... We have this thing called local needs in this country. And it's a law that removes that ability for the majority

Yeah, I'd be a blow in around those parts, so that's out. Where I live right now it's the same story. I'm gone so long from what I see as my native county, and mother's homeplace, that I'd possibly struggle there and anyway, it's much too far from work. My county of birth, and father's homeplace, is not a place I ever want to live, ever again. So, as interesting as the idea is, building is a non-starter for me unfortunately. Having said that, my sisters have built, one of them twice and good god does it look like a stressfest.

Tired of living in built up areas, particularly in an apartment (even with a garden) as is currently the case and really want some space and privacy, so this is the appeal of the bungalows on a halfway decent site. Unfortunately - every silver lining (bungalow) seems to have a cloud (septic tank issue).

drunkmonkey

Don't let them near the report but tell the agent you want another good look around after seeing the report might put a bit of fear in them.
Tell them you've concerns as there's **** on the footpaths. Don't be afraid to play hard ball now they won't want to restart the whole selling process especially if the other bidder was a phantom bidder.
That sewerage thing is simply not on I don't care if they were saving or not, it says a lot about the seller.

pdmc

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's why I'm dubious about the other bidder, I don't think it was a local or even existed. OP sounded a bit like he didn't believe it.
I'd be inclined to start revising my offer back down to where the other bidder appeared.

Asking price was €245k. Opening bid from another party was €220k. We bid €225k. Then the original bidder came back with asking price. A €20k increase. I know ... right?

On my own property, in a highly sought after area, in a very nice town, where the market is down on stock and very hot, the bids were coming in from 3 interested parties in increments of €1,000, €500 and €250. We were sale agreed after two open viewings 4 days apart.

So, this made me feel that in a flat market, low on stock but seemingly slow on sales, a counterbidder bidding €20k above our last bid and taking it to asking price seemed unrealistic. We began to bid almost 2 months after first seeing the property and almost 3 months after it first came on the market. So, it all seems terribly convenient.

However, as I said, this was the house we wanted - not at any cost but within a certain range of figures - and at slightly above asking, it was still acceptable to us. Looking at all of the churn involved with this bloody tank now, as well as all the little bits and pieces, I'm beginning to wonder. What grates is that the survey was actually very expensive.

pdmc

Baybay wrote: »

If a septic tank is working correctly, it shouldn't need emptying so in my opinion, just having them empty it as a condition of sale might not solve the backing up problem. Unless they are incredibly careless of what goes down their drains. Include it as a condition anyway but also consider asking for replacement costs to be deducted from the sale price. This will obviously not go down well so itemise every issue your surveyor has noted when you speak to the agent & say that while the other issues are serious, you're prepared to let them go, if indeed you are.
In my opinion, I would not contact the seller directly especially as you'll be living close by. Negotiations are what agents are for.

On the day of inspection the engineer pointed out the blockages to one of the owners. She blamed these issues on toddlers chucking everything not nailed down into the loos.

I wonder if that's where the toilet seat and bathroom accessories went...

pdmc

listermint wrote: »

Sorry but that is nonsense.

You realise that the most common problems with the waste is edgits in the house putting baby wipes down the toilet. That is nothing to do with the performance of the septic tank .


Know your subject matter..

Yeah, so I've heard. Baby/Wet Wipes are not something to be flushed in any house with a septic tank. The wouldn't point to any design issue, rather wilful misuse of the services.

pdmc

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If it's there a good while it's possible the soakage pit needs to be replaced.

14 year old house.

drunkmonkey

20k is a big jump in the one bid and then to let it go for €1500 over it, hard to believe alright.
Feck them say 230k or your walking you'll know if there was a phantom bidder then fairly quickly you.mifnr not want to take the risk though. Tell them the sewerage thing has scared you.
Honestly after running into sewerage problems budget 5k.
Is it oil heated, did the survey check out the systems, could drop another 2k on a new burner or more if you decide to upgrade. (God forbid one of the oil pipes is leaking as that's a major problem, you might never live in the house)
Once your in there and start doing your sums things can really add up, is it well insulated, is that something you need to spend money on.

drunkmonkey

pdmc wrote: »

14 year old house.

Mine was 18, had to put in a new soakage pit.

pdmc

drunkmonkey wrote: »

20k is a big jump in the one bid and then to let it go for €1500 over it, hard to believe alright.
Feck them say 230k or your walking you'll know if there was a phantom bidder then fairly quickly you.mifnr not want to take the risk though. Tell them the sewerage thing has scared you.
Honestly after running into sewerage problems budget 5k.
Is it oil heated, did the survey check out the systems, could drop another 2k on a new burner or more if you decide to upgrade. (God forbid one of the oil pipes is leaking as that's a major problem, you might never live in the house)
Once your in there and start doing your sums things can really add up, is it well insulated, is that something you need to spend money on.

Yeah, so you'd understand my thinking that this was orchestrated and necessary because every penny of this sale is already spent in the imaginations of the vendors - on the build. We did hear afterwards that the auctioneer has a bit of a reputation...

It has an oil fired range as burner, which was "working well" on the day of inspection. It did seem a dry/warm house when we viewed. Engineer has recommended asking for maintenance records for that and the solar panels on the roof and in lieu of those recommends servicing asap. Vendors had nothing to produce on the day of inspection. I doubt many people would keep records, but usually even just sticker on the burner would be something.

The attic was recently given better insulation, we're told. Engineer didn't criticise this.

pdmc

drunkmonkey wrote: »

20k is a big jump in the one bid and then to let it go for €1500 over it, hard to believe alright.
Feck them say 230k or your walking you'll know if there was a phantom bidder then fairly quickly you.mifnr not want to take the risk though. Tell them the sewerage thing has scared you.
Honestly after running into sewerage problems budget 5k.
Is it oil heated, did the survey check out the systems, could drop another 2k on a new burner or more if you decide to upgrade. (God forbid one of the oil pipes is leaking as that's a major problem, you might never live in the house)
Once your in there and start doing your sums things can really add up, is it well insulated, is that something you need to spend money on.

€230,000 is exactly what I said to the other half. Failing that - a reduction of €5k is the very least I think they should be facilitating. But - perhaps this was always their plan. No matter, if they'll play ball, I still think the house is worth that.

drunkmonkey

No records, no service, I'd say there's wriggle room there somewhere, we've an auctioneer like that around here, sister called his bluff on two houses. Neither sold to the "other bidder"

pdmc

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No records, no service, I'd say there's wriggle room there somewhere, we've an auctioneer like that around here, sister called his bluff on two houses. Neither sold to the "other bidder"

"Around here" could be interpreted to cover every county on this fair isle. It's absolutely incredible what is going on in this country due to a total lack of regulation and transparency, with Estate Agents inventing bidders, driving up the price on one house so that a domino effect takes hold raising the valuations and asking prices of everything else in the surrounding area.