How to deal with weddings/funerals

AllForIt

As I get older I feel more and more uncomfortable about attending Catholic church services - weddings and funerals of course.

Last year I attended a family funeral (not intimidate family, a relative) and I felt like a right lemon muttering along to responses etc. As I reach middle age and my older family relatives are beginning to pass away - I don't think I can attend any more catholic funerals, and I think now I should consider ways to deal with them differently.

I was thinking the following - in the case of a funeral - just turn up at the burial service and skip the church service. In the case of a wedding - skip the church service and go to the reception. Or maybe attend the church service and sit at the back seat of the church so not everyone would notice I'm not participating - standing up/keeling down/praying etc. Another option would be don't go at all and express my sympathies in some other way - but this would be awkward for family funerals.

I was wondering if anyone feels the same way and how do you deal with these situations. If there has been any similar threads on this I'd apprentice a link as I realise this subject has prolly been discussed here before.

_CreeD_

I attend and respectfully do not participate in the specific rituals (prayers, kneeling etc.).

eviltwin

I only go to church now for weddings, funerals etc. I don't say anything and would rather not be there but I think it's important to think about the other people involved and what's best for them. I wouldn't want to hurt or insult anyone by turning down a wedding invite or not being at a funeral to support them.

Put it this way, if it was your wedding or loved ones funeral you would appreciate the religious people in your life being there.

wexie

_CreeD_ wrote: »

I attend and respectfully do not participate in the specific rituals (prayers, kneeling etc.).

This just here.

OP....are you going out of respect for your family/friends and their wishes or because you believe? I don't think they need to go hand in hand at all.

Whenever I'm in a church I'm there not necessarily because I want to be in a church but because someone who is important to me is having an event (that sounds kinda wrong for a funeral but still) that I would like to attend.

It's irrelevant to me (perhaps not to them) where that happens to be. I'd go if it was in a hotel or pub just the same. The church doesn't mean anything to me, my attendance at the event does.

With regards to mutterings and singing I don't think I've ever had so much as a funny look for not participating.

(oh and with regards to the kneeling, I don't cause you'd have to then carry me out of the church at the end, especially for catholic services)

EDIT : If you're worried about spontaneously bursting into flames once you cross the threshold I can assure you that doesn't seem to happen. Took me a while to get over that fear

idnkph

Why do you feel the need to do all the muttering along and standing and kneeling?
Sounds like your embarrassed to not believe in the risen to me.
I dont believe in any religion but going to funerals and weddings is just showing a bit of respect to those friends and family that do believe.
If you respect their beliefs they will respect yours.

Birdie Num Num

AllForIt wrote: »

In the case of a wedding - skip the church service and go to the reception. Or maybe attend the church service and sit at the back seat of the church so not everyone would notice I'm not participating - standing up/keeling down/praying etc. Another option would be don't go at all and express my sympathies in some other way.

Sorry, I couldn't resist it.

appledrop

_CreeD_ wrote: »

I attend and respectfully do not participate in the specific rituals (prayers, kneeling etc.).

I woukd agree with this. At the end of the day it's not your wedding so not your decision on type of ceremony. However I wouldn't want to miss it just because I'm not religious. I think with a funeral it is so important to attend to pay respect to the person who has passed away + their families. I will admit I do find funerals the hardest because sometimes the priest nearly views it as a happy time with all the crap about them being in a better place + happy with god. Not much comfort if you don't believe in afterlife. Sometimes the actual person is barely mentioned in among all the religion but again thst was the person's choice on funeral that they wanted.

wexie

appledrop wrote: »

I will admit I do find funerals the hardest because sometimes the priest nearly views it as a happy time with all the crap about them being in a better place + happy with god. Not much comfort if you don't believe in afterlife. Sometimes the actual person is barely mentioned in among all the religion but again thst was the person's choice on funeral that they wanted.

I've noticed a remarkable difference in this between catholic services and COI...
But perhaps that varies from church to church
(not just funerals btw, same with weddings and especially baptisms)

the_syco

AllForIt wrote: »

I don't think I can attend any more catholic funerals, and I think now I should consider ways to deal with them differently.

I attend weddings & funerals out of respect for the person. I don't respond to the prayers, and I don't get the bread.

AllForIt

_CreeD_ wrote: »

I attend and respectfully do not participate in the specific rituals (prayers, kneeling etc.).

the_syco wrote: »

I attend weddings & funerals out of respect for the person. I don't respond to the prayers, and I don't get the bread.

Okay, that was what I had though off doing as I said I think in my OP. I have never seen or heard anyone say they do that until today.

salmocab

The same here for weddings and funerals I go along don’t join in or recite anything but tend to stand and mooch forward for the kneeling as the person behind needs the space for their arms. I don’t feel uncomfortable or anything and barely pay attention. I do shake hands when that bit is done and say peace be with you but that to me is just wishing people a bit of peace without necessarily being religious.
I went to the wife’s uncles funeral years back and he was a monk on an island in Wales and we were treated like guests of honor sitting on pews facing inwards at the altar when they were doing communion the priest came along the front of us giving out the communions and I panicked a bit and made a big show of waving my arms and saying no. The wife still slags me about it.

AllForIt

salmocab wrote: »

The same here for weddings and funerals I go along don’t join in or recite anything but tend to stand and mooch forward for the kneeling as the person behind needs the space for their arms. I don’t feel uncomfortable or anything and barely pay attention. I do shake hands when that bit is done and say peace be with you but that to me is just wishing people a bit of peace without necessarily being religious.
I went to the wife’s uncles funeral years back and he was a monk on an island in Wales and we were treated like guests of honor sitting on pews facing inwards at the altar when they were doing communion the priest came along the front of us giving out the communions and I panicked a bit and made a big show of waving my arms and saying no. The wife still slags me about it.

You see the situations you talk about there are exactly the things I'd fret about happening. I'd be inclined to sit somewhere a bit less conspicuous.

Franz Von Peppercorn

What’s the exact atheist problem with the bread?

I don’t like mass myself - although I do like empty churches. Nevertheless I go and kneel when expected. Mumble with the rest.

Avoid the bread unless to not have it would cause more of a scene. I’ve also gone to Buddhist and Muslim ceremonies

salmocab

AllForIt wrote: »

You see the situations you talk about there are exactly the things I'd fret about happening. I'd be inclined to sit somewhere a bit less conspicuous.

Oh normally I’d be nowhere near the front but it was an odd one because I travelled over with his only family I think in total we were 12 so 6 either side. In fairness I doubt the priests and monks had much dealing with an atheist on their island. Nothing was said after or anything. In general especially at weddings and funerals their is an expectation that not everyone is catholic or even religious just go say nothing and don’t be a dick and nobody will even notice and if they do they won’t care

salmocab

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What’s the exact atheist problem with the bread?

I don’t like mass myself - although I do like empty churches. Nevertheless I go and kneel when expected. Mumble with the rest.

Avoid the bread unless to not have it would cause more of a scene. I’ve also gone to Buddhist and Muslim ceremonies

Well if your asking me it’s just not for me, I don’t believe so don’t get involved in Catholic practices. I’d think it disrespectful to take it but wouldn’t really care what others do.

wexie

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What’s the exact atheist problem with the bread?

salmocab wrote: »

Well if your asking me it’s just not for me, I don’t believe so don’t get involved in Catholic practices. I’d think it disrespectful to take it but wouldn’t really care what others do.

Yeah same here for me, considering what it's supposed to represent I'd feel disrespectful and hypocritical taking it.

Having said that I've never had any comments over respectfully declining either.

AllForIt

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What’s the exact atheist problem with the bread?

For me it would be exactly same problem as doing anything else in a church that would give the impression I am a Catholic and everything that implies. I don't want anyone to think I'm a Catholic.

Franz Von Peppercorn

AllForIt wrote: »

For me it would be exactly same problem as doing anything else in a church that would give the impression I am a Catholic and everything that implies. I don't want anyone to think I'm a Catholic.

Since most people there would be catholic, or cultural catholics, why would you be so ashamed.

Who is going to know but you?

Peregrinus

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What’s the exact atheist problem with the bread?

I don’t like mass myself - although I do like empty churches. Nevertheless I go and kneel when expected. Mumble with the rest.

Avoid the bread unless to not have it would cause more of a scene. I’ve also gone to Buddhist and Muslim ceremonies

Not taking it should never cause a scene. Nine times out of ten you simply don't approach to take it. If you find somobody approaching you, like the situation salmocab describes, there are conventions for indicating that you don't want it- you cross your arms over you chest, left hand at right shoulder and right hand as left shoulder. It's common for people not to want it, particularly at weddings and funerals, and no conclusions are drawn. It needn't be a drama.

One eyed Jack

AllForIt wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone feels the same way and how do you deal with these situations. If there has been any similar threads on this I'd apprentice a link as I realise this subject has prolly been discussed here before.

I know plenty of people who feel the same way as you do about the whole idea of attending a church or being expected to participate in the mass. I would never think that an adult should feel obligated to participate in religious ceremonies if they aren't of that particular denomination or religion, and there are plenty of people I know who would rather just sit there than participate in the Catholic pilates (I can thank this forum for that phrase, always makes me smile ).

Everyone's experiences and mileage will vary of course, but from my experience just going to mass on Sundays (I am Catholic btw), there are plenty of people in the congregation who have no idea when to do the Catholic pilates, and as for their ability to join in with the prayers? Forget about it :pac:

People are becoming more aware of atheists in Irish society and there aren't too many people in my experience at least who are bothered about what those people choose to do, whether that's refraining from attending church ceremonies, or attending and sitting there not bothering anyone. Hell, at my brothers wedding my mother sitting in the front row decided to nod off just as the couple were about to exchange their vows, snoring like a bear :pac:

I genuinely would say you really shouldn't be so conscious of how you will be judged by other people, and if anyone does take the opportunity to pass judgement upon you for your choices in relation to your own absence or lack of belief or just your decision to do your thing that's not their thing, then that's a reflection on them, not you, and should be seen as such.

AllForIt

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not taking it should never cause a scene. Nine times out of ten you simply don't approach to take it. If you find somobody approaching you, like the situation salmocab describes, there are conventions for indicating that you don't want it- you cross your arms over you chest, left hand at right shoulder and right hand as left shoulder. It's common for people not to want it, particularly at weddings and funerals, and no conclusions are drawn. It needn't be a drama.

Well, given that my arms and legs need to be somewhere, I may as well put them in the position you suggest.

AllForIt

Thanks OEJ. The fact I don't attend church events means I didn't know how attitudes have changed. I wouldn't necessarily fully agree that this attitude extends across the nation though. I live in the rural west. I already came out once in my life to my family and extended family and I'm much more apprehensive about coming out as an atheist to my very old staunch catholic aunts !

I do realise I'm making much more of this than need be OEJ, so thanks again for you post, you have put me at ease.

recedite

For weddings you would probably want to see the happy couple getting married, and for funerals you might want to see hear the eulogies. So for those its best just to go inside, then sit and watch. I don't feel the need to sit at the back, or to pretend to participate.
Sometimes its a less personalised occasion, like a "months mind" or anniversary of a death, communions, confirmations etc. which I wouldn't attend because there's nothing much to miss, so its just not worth the tedium of going inside.

But there could be a social event afterwards. So if I'm going to these I'll arrive an hour or so after the kick off time and just wait for them to come out. Listen to the radio, read a book, whatever. Then do the whole meet and greet and mingle thing. Usually nobody even notices that you weren't inside.
It works out better actually, because you can be one of the first to greet the main stars outside while most others are still caught up in "the great church aisle traffic jam".
Might be a good plan for somebody who didn't want to draw attention to their atheism.

Kidchameleon

Another option would be to get the hell over yourself and just go. You dont have to "mutter" anything. I just dont get this sanctimonious crap, pathetic op, just pathetic.

AllForIt

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Another option would be to get the hell over yourself and just go. You dont have to "mutter" anything. I just dont get this sanctimonious crap, pathetic op, just pathetic.

That's what I like to see - some god damn passion.

seamus

I do think a lot of the "causing a scene" comes from the individual themselves rather than the people around them.

It's very normal and natural to feel self-conscious when you're the only one in a group who's not doing something. If you went to a Mosque, you'd probably feel very "exposed" standing there like a lemon while everyone else prays. Do it five or six times and you'll realise that nobody is really paying attention.

This effect is actually made worse when you're familiar with the rituals. You spent your entire childhood being conditioned to learn the rituals, to participate, for it to be second nature. Sitting in mass hearing the words being spoken, is like listening to a song you know really well coming on the radio; you almost can't help yourself but to sing along.

So in this regard, sitting in mass and not participating is a double-whammy. Not only do you feel self-conscious for what others might think, but you're also fighting your own personal urge to participate in the way that you have done since you first learned to talk.

You get used to it. Do it five or six times and suddenly it doesn't feel weird any more. Also, a lot more people do it now. 15 years ago at any service, I would definitely have been the only person at a church wedding, not participating in the mass. Now there are 3 or 4 people in every pew.

The changes to the text of the Mass have also helped me. It's no longer the same mass I was indoctrinated into. It sounds and feels completely foreign; not at all comfortable and familiar.

iamwhoiam

At my dads funeral a group of Jewish neighbours arrived to his catholic Mass . They came out of respect for him , they shook hands at the sign of peace and stood when asked to stand . They were respectful of his customs . It's actually really simple to just respects others way of life .

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Another option would be to get the hell over yourself and just go. You dont have to "mutter" anything. I just dont get this sanctimonious crap, pathetic op, just pathetic.

Kid - Welcome back! I don't recall seeing you hereabouts for quite some time, but I hope that you've enjoyed the interim, wherever you've been.

I do unfortunately see, however, that you remain as ready as ever to rain as much wonky incivility as you can down upon people who do not share your religious views.

Improve your posting style or post elsewhere.

Kidchameleon

Sorry yes my bad, apologies. If I may, can I suggest the OP tries not to worry too much about such things. The people around you at these ceremonies probably don't care too much about your beliefs or lack there of so there is no need to "protest".

salmocab

The OP wasn’t talking about protests at all

Kidchameleon

salmocab wrote: »

The OP wasn’t talking about protests at all

Hence I put the word inside quotes

osarusan

I go along, kneel, sit, stand when everybody else does. I don't say any of the prayers simpyl because I don't know the words. At my father's funeral, I even did a reading, talking about the word of the Lord or whatever it was.

Everybody in my family and plenty of my friends know I don't believe in anything, some of them are the same, we all just go along with it all.

I just wait for it to be over and think about other things...I'd guess most other people in the church, however they describe their religion or lack thereof, are doing the same thing.

Obviously though, 'going along with it' causes you more internal conflict than me.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Hence I put the word inside quotes

Not sure where you studied English - if you ever did - but most style guides suggest that putting words within quote marks indicates that the quoted words are direct, attributable quotes. Hence the term quote marks. To indicate quotes.

Your intention, on the contrary, seems as usual to be to impute intentions to a poster which the poster never declared or implied, and thus, to discredit a genuine question from a genuine person.

If only there was a commandment - even a ninth one would be good - which would suggest that one should avoid bearing false witness against one's neighbour...

Any more of this rubbish from you and you'll be carded for trolling.

Im not sure why you have to 'deal' with them?
Just go along, I haven't had communion since I was a young teenager, about 30 years ago, ( mother was not happy!!)
I still go to my friends weddings in churches.
And funerals.
I am not there because I believe, I am there because thats where the ceremony is.
I dont cause a scene, I don't participate. Just stand or sit, that's it.
Its not really that difficult!

robindch

AllForIt wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone feels the same way and how do you deal with these situations.

As others have suggested, the best thing to do seems to be to stand up and sit down as others stand up and sit down, but to avoid mouthing the prayers or kneeling as these seem to cross an unwritten line. I've done the standing up and sitting down - quietly - for some years and haven't had any adverse reactions from anybody in front of me in the church. That said, I usually sit way down the back in order to avoid being spotted and picked out for correction post-event by any eagle-eyed religionists.

There do seem, however, to be many individuals with Kidchameleon's view - that everybody should grant the religion the respect which the religious believe it deserves. And that anything less implies grand-standing on the part of the non-conformist. Matthew 6:5 springs to mind for these good people:

Matthew 6:5 wrote:

And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

I attended a wedding in the catholic church in Dubai.
there were approx 8 catholics ( including the groom) at the wedding.
the rest of the people ( approx 80) were a mix of CoE & Muslim.
no one in the church had any problem sitting or standing or whatever! They were interested but not participating, if you know what I mean.

Hotblack Desiato

appledrop wrote: »

Sometimes the actual person is barely mentioned in among all the religion but again thst was the person's choice on funeral that they wanted.

Not really it's the surviving relatives who arrange it.

endacl

AllForIt wrote: »

As I get older I feel more and more uncomfortable about attending Catholic church services - weddings and funerals of course.

Last year I attended a family funeral (not intimidate family, a relative) and I felt like a right lemon muttering along to responses etc. As I reach middle age and my older family relatives are beginning to pass away - I don't think I can attend any more catholic funerals, and I think now I should consider ways to deal with them differently.

I was thinking the following - in the case of a funeral - just turn up at the burial service and skip the church service. In the case of a wedding - skip the church service and go to the reception. Or maybe attend the church service and sit at the back seat of the church so not everyone would notice I'm not participating - standing up/keeling down/praying etc. Another option would be don't go at all and express my sympathies in some other way - but this would be awkward for family funerals.

I was wondering if anyone feels the same way and how do you deal with these situations. If there has been any similar threads on this I'd apprentice a link as I realise this subject has prolly been discussed here before.

Funny. As I get older I worry less about that stuff...

The Bishop Basher

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not really it's the surviving relatives who arrange it.

Plenty of people have non religious funerals. If it’s a big enough deal to someone they’ll make sure it’s known to their nearest and dearest. A lot of people also like the “insurance” of having a religious ceremony. Even those who’ve claimed to be atheists while alive. I’ve been at a couple of those.

But the OP in this thread strikes me as worrying far too much about what everyone else is thinking. No one cares that your atheist and no one cares that you don’t take communion, no one cares that you don’t know the prayers, no one even cares whether you kneel or not.

I’m neither atheist nor religious but I grew up surrounded by religion and I saw through it from my early childhood. I hate going near churches for no other reason then I get incredibly bored but if someone is good enough to invite me to a special occasion in their lives or if someone has passed on, I’ll go out of respect.

There’s no need at all for any dramatics though. Sit down the back, stay out of the way and pay your respects how you see fit. If mumbling along makes you feel better then do it but again, those around you couldn’t give a ****e. It can be slightly awkward at proddy stuff where everyone loves to sing but again, stop worrying about everyone else and just do your thing.

Maybe I’ve just been incredibly lucky but in 35 years of not actively participating in church, I’ve never once had an issue in any church, any denomination, anywhere, ever.

One eyed Jack

Swanner wrote: »

Plenty of people have non religious funerals. If it’s a big enough deal to someone they’ll make sure it’s known to their nearest and dearest. A lot of people also like the “insurance” of having a religious ceremony. Even those who’ve claimed to be atheists while alive. I’ve been at a couple of those.

But the OP in this thread strikes me as worrying far too much about what everyone else is thinking. No one cares that your atheist and no one cares that you don’t take communion, no one cares that you don’t know the prayers, no one even cares whether you kneel or not.

I’m not atheist but I grew up surrounded by religion and I saw through it from my early childhood. I hate going near churches for no other reason then I get incredibly bored but if someone is good enough to invite me to a special occasion in their lives or if someone has passed on, I’ll go out of respect.

There’s no need at all for any dramatics though. Sit down the back, stay out of the way and pay your respects how you see fit. If mumbling along makes you feel better then do it but again, those around you couldn’t give a ****e. It can be slightly awkward at proddy stuff where everyone loves to sing but again, stop worrying about everyone else and just do your thing.

Maybe I’ve just been incredibly lucky but in 35 years of not actively participating in church, I’ve never once had an issue in any church, any denomination, anywhere, ever.

I think it's very unfair on the OP to assume they're being dramatic or that they're worrying too much or that no-one cares that they're atheist. People do care, and the OP is aware of people in their life who do care about these things and do judge people negatively on that basis. It should be understandable that they would be nervous or feel intimidated by something they have very little experience of and aren't sure what to expect.

Some of us have been incredibly lucky, and some of us haven't, based upon whether the majority of our experiences have either been positive or negative, and when someone has very little experience either way, and has little idea of what to expect, it really should be understandable that they'd be nervous about it.

I didn't know what to expect the first time I was invited to attend a Pentecostal service, I'd an idea of their beliefs, I'd an idea about the services they have in the US, but I had no idea whether an African service would be anything like it. Turned out I kinda liked the whole gig and had a word with my priest about incorporating some of the ideas into the mass to jazz things up a bit and get a congregation that's often pretty lifeless interested in the mass. All too often times they look like they're bored off their tits, and some of them are out with their mobile phones or simply appear to have no interest in why they're there.

The OP asked the question because they don't know what to expect. Nobody can really tell them what to expect because we simply don't know, but each of us would have an idea from our own experiences what the OP might want to be prepared for, and I think that's all they were asking for, with the intention of avoiding any drama created by other people.

The Bishop Basher

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The OP asked the question because they don't know what to expect.

Nonsense. Did you read the OP ?

AllForIt wrote: »

As I get older I feel more and more uncomfortable about attending Catholic church services - weddings and funerals of course.

Last year I attended a family funeral (not intimidate family, a relative) and I felt like a right lemon muttering along to responses etc. As I reach middle age and my older family relatives are beginning to pass away - I don't think I can attend any more catholic funerals, and I think now I should consider ways to deal with them differently

They know exactly what to expect. Like the rest of the population they’ve been attending religious ceremonies all their lives. This isn’t about ignorance, it’s about their own discomfort and how they can deal with it.

My advice to OP was to stop worrying about everyone around them because they are unlikely to care.

“You probably wouldn’t worry about what people think of you if you could know how seldom they do”.

Peregrinus

In nearly all Christian denominations, public worship is, well, public. All are welcome; attending does not imply any kind of faith in the religion, or participation in its practices. And this is doubly true of events like weddings, funerals and baptisms.

So, if you think everyone around you is noting the fact that you are unfamiliar with the rituals and/or unwilling to participate in them, they are almost certainly not. This is your own self-consciousness at work. The rest of the congregation are not thinking about you, and certainly not passing judgments about you.

Of course - and this, I think, may be the real problem - your Mammy may be. Or your grumpy uncle, or a great-aunt. Or, at any rate, someone who knows you, and who is upset at, or made to feel insecure by, your rejection of what they may see as the family tradition of faith.

You know your Mammy, your uncle and your great-aunt better than we do, so only you can decide if this is an issue that affects you and, if so, how big an issue it is. How to deal with it? There isn't really a one-size-fits-all solution, I think; family dynamics are very varied. But I think the bottom line has to be that their upset or their insecurity is their issue; don't let your internal Mammy/grumpy uncle/great-aunt make it your issue. If you feel that the wedding/funeral/baptism is an event that you should participate in, then go; do not be embarrassed to participate in it. Do not feel obliged to do anything you are uncomfortable with (kneeling, offering prayers, whatever) and pay no attention to anyone who you think may be giving you the hairy eyeball over this. You thinking this may reflect your own insecurity, if in fact it isn't happening, or it may reflect theirs, if in fact it is, but either way I think the best thing you can do is note the feeling and then let it pass. And of course resist any temptation to express your own negative judgments, by word, gesture or simmering air of resentment, about the nature of the event or the way in which others participate in it. You're there because you want to be there, remember.

Hotblack Desiato

Swanner wrote: »

Plenty of people have non religious funerals. If it’s a big enough deal to someone they’ll make sure it’s known to their nearest and dearest.

Religious families can't be trusted to carry those wishes through, however.

A lot of people also like the “insurance” of having a religious ceremony. Even those who’ve claimed to be atheists while alive.

Ah please, not the deathbed conversion fallacy again.
You can't assume that that funeral was in accordance with their wishes.

I’m neither atheist nor religious

Atheism and religion are not opposites. You can be an atheist and practice a non-theistic religion (e.g. buddhism) or neither - a person with a belief but not a member of an organised religion.

But if you have no belief in a theistic god or gods then by definition you're an atheist, whether you like the word or not.

The Bishop Basher

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Religious families can't be trusted to carry those wishes through, however.

True although from my own experience, where the deceased has left clear instructions for a non religious funeral / burial, those wishes have been granted. I'm sure there are families who may push ahead with their own plans regardless but I would imagine it's the exception rather then the rule.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ah please, not the deathbed conversion fallacy again.

It's not a fallacy. It's human nature to hedge our bets. Not every atheist is a militant one. Many proclaim the title while actually being agnostic and are more then happy to have the insurance of a religious burial.

As for death bed conversions, my father was a clergy man and and attended many of them. I get that they don't suit your narrative but they happen whether you like it or not. We humans are fickle creatures at the end of the day.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Atheism and religion are not opposites. You can be an atheist and practice a non-theistic religion (e.g. buddhism) or neither - a person with a belief but not a member of an organised religion.

But if you have no belief in a theistic god or gods then by definition you're an atheist, whether you like the word or not.

I'm not sure I get your point. I said I was neither Atheistic nor religious. It was a statement o fact. I wasn't looking for your input or validation. I've spent 30 years getting to the point where i'm comfortable in my beliefs or lack of. You can call me an atheist till your blue in the face but it doesn't make me one.

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

. . . you can't assume that that funeral was in accordance with their wishes.

. . . or that it wasn't.

If you're not the next-of-kin, making decisions about the funeral is neither your right nor your responsibility. You are not called upon to make any assumptions one way or the other about what the deceased wanted, or would have wanted, nor to make any judgment about how the wants of the deceased, if known, are to be balanced against the needs of the bereaved. It's a tough job for the next of kin, and it's not made any easier by the sanctimonious aunt insisting that it should be a Catholic funeral, or the atheist cousin insisting that it shouldn't.

If you're not the next of kin, as regards funeral choices your job is to butt out. You can go to the funeral, or not; that's the only choice you need to be making.

Kidchameleon

I have told my family what id like to happen when I die. If they dont follow through its not really going to bother me so theres not much point worrying about it

JayRoc

osarusan wrote: »

I go along, kneel, sit, stand when everybody else does..

The odd time I have to be in a church I do my best to be unobtrusive about my lack of participation (usually a wedding or funeral). I stand up when everyone else does, I do the funny handshake, etc.

But (and I can't speak for anyone else here) kneeling is absolutely out of the question. I will shuffle forward in the seat to allow the person behind me room and I will do my best to be subtle about it (I'm not there to make a point).

But the symbolism of getting down on your knees is inescapable and I will do that for no man or god, to be honest.

The Bishop Basher

JayRoc wrote: »

But the symbolism of getting down on your knees is inescapable and I will do that for no man or god, to be honest.

I thought I was alone in this. I’ve struggled with it as long as I can remember. Certainly since I was a child. I refused to kneel then and I still refuse to this day.

Just like yourself I do all the shuffling and moving up to the point of actually kneeling.

It’s like singing is to the prods, kneeling seems to be a big thing for the Catholics cause absolutely everyone does it.

Peregrinus

JayRoc wrote: »

But (and I can't speak for anyone else here) kneeling is absolutely out of the question . . .

Swanner wrote: »

I thought I was alone in this. I’ve struggled with it as long as I can remember. Certainly since I was a child. I refused to kneel then and I still refuse to this day . . .

This is actually pretty common for unbelievers attending church services. They are fine with standing and sitting when everybody else does, but kneeling has a symbolic signficance that goes to far for them, so they don't kneel.

Which is not a big deal. Nobody around you is likely to notice or care. Not kneeling is common, and need not be a statement about belief. It can just as easily be a statement about the condition of your joints, or your general state of weariness.

JayRoc

Peregrinus wrote: »

This is actually pretty common for unbelievers attending church services. They are fine with standing and sitting when everybody else does, but kneeling has a symbolic signficance that goes to far for them, so they don't kneel.

Which is not a big deal. Nobody around you is likely to notice or care. Not kneeling is common, and need not be a statement about belief. It can just as easily be a statement about the condition of your joints, or your general state of weariness.

My comment was really in reply to a previous poster saying they just did all the stuff the people around them were doing including kneeling.

I've had a couple of instances of friends asking me why I felt it necessary to make the point of not kneeling at a mass, which bummed me out because I bend over backward to not make a big deal of my beliefs (or lack thereof).

I'm attending a ceremony (wedding, funeral) and it's not about me.

The Bishop Basher

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nobody around you is likely to notice or care. Not kneeling is common, and need not be a statement about belief. It can just as easily be a statement about the condition of your joints, or your general state of weariness.

I always had the dodgy knee excuse ready if i was ever challenged but never needed it :pac: