Can Damascus knives really be called Damascus?

Cass

Having a chat with a mate recently and this topic came up, again.

I have a couple of "Damascus" knives and he recently bought one. We were discussing how they are not really Damascus but modern reproductions.

I read an article, or two, over the last few years were the original method for creating this steel was lost over 200 years ago and while some have come close, even to the point where the modern replicas are superior, none are truly Damascus.

So what do you think? Are modern knives really Damascus or just close facsimiles? Does it really matter?

gunny123

A lot of damascus knives i have seen are solid, unlaminated steel, with a damascus pattern simply etched on them with acid or some process like that. Not that it makes any practical difference to the knife. I would think the only reason for having a damascus knife over a solid steel one is the beauty of damascus, modern steels being so good.

There is a modern damascus steel available, made by powder metallurgy and laser welding i think, made in Sweden. Eye wateringly expensive though, Purdey are making shotguns from it.

http://www.damasteel.se

Grizzly 45

.TBH, unless you had to reproduce a museum piece repro,it is just nitpicking to say it isn't "really real" Damascus. If we can produce a steel that's 99.9% accurate to the original,isn't that good enough for Govt work?:)

Gorgeousgeorge

What about shotguns with a damascus barrel are they produced the old lost way or the newer way.??

Not the new purdeys or that but the older shotguns

cookimonster

Just as a by the by.... there was a Damascus barrelled sxs shot gun in the family at one time. The grandfather liberated during the war of independence. It was hunted with by the uncle's but eventually became a wall hanger. I believe from my father's discription the pattern looked like piano wire wound into a cylinder. It came with reloadable brass cartridges.
No one knows where it went and I shudder to think it ended up in Hammond Lane on a scrap pile. With today's technologies I'd say she would have been brought back to life.

gunny123

I have a Dublin made sidelock sxs with damascus barrels. Its marked laminated steel on the barrel flats. Nothing looks better than a damasus barrel properly browned.

Grizzly 45

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

What about shotguns with a Damascus barrel have they produced the old lost way or the newer way.??

Not the new purdeys or that but the older shotguns

A blog on how "Damascus" steel barrels were/are made. It's not the same material as a knife blade, and it is often confused with pattern welded barrels.


http://firearmshistory.blogspot.ie/2010/06/barrel-making-pattern-welded-or.html

Cass

gunny123 wrote: »

There is a modern damascus steel available, made by powder metallurgy and laser welding i think, made in Sweden. .

I don't doubt it's close to, if not superior to, the original standard, but still not actual Damascus if the stories about the original method or manufacturing being lost to time.

I know, as some of you rightly said, given todays standards and processes that most knives, even cheaper ones, will be of superior quality, but it makes me wonder that people can still sell stuff called Damascus when it's not truly it.

Picture buying a Beretta that someone has stamped Purdy on. Same quality, same performance, but if its not made by them its not them. Probably a poor example, but you get the idea.

gunny123

I do not know if the secret was ever lost though Cass. The japs never lost it afaik, in the manufacture of their samurai swords. I watched a documentary about them making the swords and i am pretty certain they have been make them the same way since time began.

Cass

Agreed 100% on the Samurai method, but most every article i've ever read on Damascus says that the true method has been lost over time, and while some methods could be called exact replicas because the original method is not known no one can say for sure if it is truly Damascus.

With regard the Katana/Samurai swords i've watched some seriously amazing programs on how they're made and the price for a "proper" sword made by authentic masters not only takes months/years but start at $50,000 and up. Just to make the Sheath for one takes over a month and the person has to apprentice for years. The blade making, engraving, handle wrapping, etc. takes even longer and requires apprenticeships that can last for over a decade.

Each sword requires a newly built forge to melt the metals which is torn down to retrieve the ore. The sharpening takes over three weeks and the master uses over 100 files.

ormondprop

Nearly all madern damascus knives and other steels are just pattern welded, different steels layered and forge welded real damascus like wootz steel has never been recreated as far as i know as the method has been lost,

I have the say i love the look of some pattern welded knives though

gunny123

Any damascus knife is also likely to be expensive. Losing knives is something we have all done, i know i have, its one thing leaving a relatively cheap knife behind after a stalk, but something special would be a sickener.

The mora knives are excellent and really cheap working blades, who cares about losing one of them ?

meathstevie

gunny123 wrote: »

Any damascus knife is also likely to be expensive. Losing knives is something we have all done, i know i have, its one thing leaving a relatively cheap knife behind after a stalk, but something special would be a sickener.

The mora knives are excellent and really cheap working blades, who cares about losing one of them ?

I'd say the first fella who lost one like it was also the lad who invented the lanyard...

Half-cocked

gunny123 wrote: »

The mora knives are excellent and really cheap working blades, who cares about losing one of them ?

With the right sharpening gear you can get a razor edge on a Mora blade and it will hold it for ages. I don't understand how they can manufacture such high quality blades so cheaply. I buy the blades and make my own handles.

Uinseann_16

"Damascus" is just how people refer to pattern welded steels because they resemble the old Damascus steel patterns, and theres probably more "modern" pattern welded blades than original damascus blades around nowadays. remember those old damascus blades were amazing for their day and are still of good quality even by todays measure but modern tool steels will outperform them in any aspect , theres a bit of myth around them just like katanas their not magical they were great when they were made but skilled craftsmen can and do make knives that are more than a "reproduction" they are a improvement and continuation on the old whilst paying homage to them. i wouldnt have any hesitation calling a pattern welded blade damascus its what everyone does
And damascus steel was just some kind of crucible steel nothing magical just a continuation of wootz steels:P im sure to westerners it was magical seeming though in the past