Limerick Transport

zulutango

The days of building roads because of congestion should be well behind us. We know that more roads beget more roads still. It's a never ending cycle and a policy that's being discarded. Instead of moving traffic from one place to another we should be eliminating traffic. Building more roads is the last thing we should be doing. Congestion in Limerick is lower than any other Irish city. We can afford to have a lot more congestion.

marno21

zulutango wrote: »

The days of building roads because of congestion should be well behind us. We know that more roads beget more roads still. It's a never ending cycle and a policy that's being discarded. Instead of moving traffic from one place to another we should be eliminating traffic. Building more roads is the last thing we should be doing. Congestion in Limerick is lower than any other Irish city. We can afford to have a lot more congestion.

I'm not talking about building roads because of congestion, or building roads to increase capacity. Build a new road and remove the same amount of roadspace available to cars within the centre. Same as what's planned with Galway, there will be a new ring road north of the city to remove through traffic, and the existing N6 will become a bus corridor.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

The days of building roads because of congestion should be well behind us. We know that more roads beget more roads still. It's a never ending cycle and a policy that's being discarded. Instead of moving traffic from one place to another we should be eliminating traffic. Building more roads is the last thing we should be doing. Congestion in Limerick is lower than any other Irish city. We can afford to have a lot more congestion.

You're close to being alone in wanting congestion.

zulutango

marno21 wrote:

I'm not talking about building roads because of congestion, or building roads to increase capacity. Build a new road and remove the same amount of roadspace available to cars within the centre. Same as what's planned with Galway, there will be a new ring road north of the city to remove through traffic, and the existing N6 will become a bus corridor.

How do you feel about traffic evaporation?

zulutango

phog wrote:

You're close to being alone in wanting congestion.

We're the least congested city in Ireland. Our existing roads can take a much higher capacity.

marno21

zulutango wrote: »

How do you feel about traffic evaporation?

I don't think traffic evaporation is a factor here, how are these people supposed to get to work? There isn't really any alternatives. Most of these journeys aren't leisurely trips for a stroll around town. It's not a suggestion to close down a freeway, these are the sole routes for these people.

zulutango wrote: »

We're the least congested city in Ireland. Our existing roads can take a much higher capacity.

The least congested city in Ireland because of a massive increase in road space in the 2000s which is rapidly filling due to ongoing sprawl and the fact that most people avoid town where possible due to the lack of activity in there. I live in Limerick and rarely drive through or near town. The only town/city where I do this.

zulutango

marno21 wrote:

I don't think traffic evaporation is a factor here, how are these people supposed to get to work? There isn't really any alternatives.

There are alternatives. I've pointed them out. It'll just take people longer.

LeoD

marno21 wrote: »

Build a new road and remove the same amount of roadspace available to cars within the centre.

They tried that in Dublin with a two lane motorway around the city. That soon filled up so they added another lane but that soon filled up. To ease congestion on this ring road, there are now proposals to build a ring road around the ring road that would come out as far as Navan. At this rate, there'll be a ring road around Dublin within touching distance of Limerick in around 50 years.

marno21

LeoD wrote: »

They tried that in Dublin with a two lane motorway around the city. That soon filled up so they added another lane but that soon filled up. To ease congestion on this ring road, there are now proposals to build a ring road around the ring road that would come out as far as Navan. At this rate, there'll be a ring road around Dublin within touching distance of Limerick in around 50 years.

That's not really true.

They built a 2 lane motorway around Dublin and then proceeded to build traffic magnets along it. Liffey Valley, Blanchardstown, Dundrum, Tallaght Square etc and a whole host of business parks including Sandyford, Citywest, Ballycoolin etc, with incredible car dependence in a lot of them.

There are no plans to build a second M50. TII have said that it will be of no benefit as 4% of journeys on the M50 are actually end to end so it would just be used as a vehicle for more sprawl. A second M50 is often raised by politicians who don't know what they are talking about.

Any proposal for a new orbital route would be as a protected road with no legally allowed development along it. A bit like what is proposed in Galway. Not a vehicle for creating sprawl.

LeoD

zulutango wrote: »

There are alternatives. I've pointed them out. It'll just take people longer.

You might even be quicker not going through the city according to the all knowledgeable Google if you want to get from Corbally to Raheen at 8:30am tomorrow morning.

LeoD

marno21 wrote: »

Any proposal for a new orbital route would be as a protected road with no legally allowed development along it. A bit like what is proposed in Galway. Not a vehicle for creating sprawl.

I've never heard of a protected road before but the Galway proposal will, with 100% certainty, encourage and result in further urban sprawl. How couldn't it? This is what happens every other orbital route has been built to alleviate traffic from city centres. And not only will we see developments grow up to the ring road from the inside, we will also see developments take hold on the outside - maybe not directly off the road as in the case of the M50, but 5-6kms away. Townlands that were once unattractive to live in due to their remoteness will find themselves within a few minutes drive of the new ring road and access to Galway city. This pattern has been repeated so often all over the world it's hard to believe that we still think it will be different the next time we try it.

Vanquished

All former National Primary Routes within the city centre have long been de-trunked. O'Connell Street used to be the N20, Sarsfield Street the N18, William Street was the N24 etc. All major national routes are intercepted by the Southern Ring Road. There is an extensive road network inside the Southern Ring that provides access to all areas within the city. I've never bought this nonsense that there are no viable cross city routes other than ploughing straight up O'Connell Street. Alternative options exist but too often there is reluctance to utilise them because it requires deviation from a preferred route and this may result in slight inconveniences to motorists etc. The blatant hypocrisy is that city centre residents and other road users such as cyclists, pedestrians etc are just expected to tolerate the inconveniences caused by incessant traffic trundling through the core commercial and residential streets.

We are not going to be able to effectively stimulate rejuvenation of the city centre without significant remodelling of the streetscape and that means reallocating space to people in general but also to more sustainable modes of transport. The status quo of decades of car dominance has not served the city centre well and change is long overdue or else it'll continue to stagnate.

To that end it's time to reconsider the traffic system in the city centre in order to divert traffic away from O'Connell Street. Henry Street in it's current arrangement is not being adequately utilised and a two way arrangement could be reintroduced here.

marno21

LeoD wrote: »

I've never heard of a protected road before but the Galway proposal will, with 100% certainty, encourage and result in further urban sprawl. How couldn't it? This is what happens every other orbital route has been built to alleviate traffic from city centres. And not only will we see developments grow up to the ring road from the inside, we will also see developments take hold on the outside - maybe not directly off the road as in the case of the M50, but 5-6kms away. Townlands that were once unattractive to live in due to their remoteness will find themselves within a few minutes drive of the new ring road and access to Galway city. This pattern has been repeated so often all over the world it's hard to believe that we still think it will be different the next time we try it.

Protected roads were in law before but were never built, now we are getting 3 of them:

Galway Ring Road from the N59 junction to Barna (the rest of it will be M6 - motorway, no development)
Limerick-Foynes from Rathkeale to Foynes (the rest of it will be M21 - motorway, no development)
Cork-Ringaskiddy from Barnhely to the Port (the rest will be M28 - motorway, no development)

TII, unlike the NRA before them, now have a policy of objecting to developments which cause detrimental effects on the national road network. There won't be giant estates going up just off the new M6 in Galway, especially given that the old N6 will become a bus corridor and will attract new development for that.

marno21

Vanquished wrote: »

All former National Primary Routes within the city centre have long been de-trunked. O'Connell Street used to be the N20, Sarsfield Street the N18, William Street was the N24 etc. All major national routes are intercepted by the Southern Ring Road. There is an extensive road network inside the Southern Ring that provides access to all areas within the city. I've never bought this nonsense that there are no viable cross city routes other than ploughing straight up O'Connell Street. Alternative options exist but too often there is reluctance to utilise them because it requires deviation from a preferred route and this may result in slight inconveniences to motorists etc. The blatant hypocrisy is that city centre residents and other road users such as cyclists, pedestrians etc are just expected to tolerate the inconveniences caused by incessant traffic trundling through the core commercial and residential streets.

We are not going to be able to effectively stimulate rejuvenation of the city centre without significant remodelling of the streetscape and that means reallocating space to people in general but also to more sustainable modes of transport. The status quo of decades of car dominance has not served the city centre well and change is long overdue or else it'll continue to stagnate.

To that end it's time to reconsider the traffic system in the city centre in order to divert traffic away from O'Connell Street. Henry Street in it's current arrangement is not being adequately utilised and a two way arrangement could be reintroduced here.

If you overlay Limerick city on a clock, there are no national roads entering Limerick between the 9 O Clock and 2 O Clock (not the most accurate) positions. There are 5 entering on the bottom half, 6 if you include the N21 which as part of the M20, which generates more traffic inbound than the N7 + N24

There are no national routes coming in from the north but that's not to say there's no traffic. There's less traffic in from the north due to the mountains but still enough.

zulutango

It's only a 30 minute cycle from Corbally to Raheen Industrial Estate. That's definitely an option for lots of folks who are currently driving. The idea that you have to route traffic through the centre of town because there's no alternatives is utterly bogus.

zulutango

marno21 wrote: »

Protected roads were in law before but were never built, now we are getting 3 of them:

Galway Ring Road from the N59 junction to Barna (the rest of it will be M6 - motorway, no development)
Limerick-Foynes from Rathkeale to Foynes (the rest of it will be M21 - motorway, no development)
Cork-Ringaskiddy from Barnhely to the Port (the rest will be M28 - motorway, no development)

TII, unlike the NRA before them, now have a policy of objecting to developments which cause detrimental effects on the national road network. There won't be giant estates going up just off the new M6 in Galway, especially given that the old N6 will become a bus corridor and will attract new development for that.

Do protected roads prevent development in townlands 5-6km away, as Leo points out? Have you any more info on protected roads?

jonski

zulutango wrote:

It's only a 30 minute cycle from Corbally to Raheen Industrial Estate. That's definitely an option for lots of folks who are currently driving. The idea that you have to route traffic through the centre of town because there's no alternatives is utterly bogus.

Did they put a roof over Limerick ?

RhubarbCrumble

jonski wrote: »

Did they put a roof over Limerick ?

We could certainly do with one this morning. Is everyone enjoying the 'summer'? :mad:

zulutango

jonski wrote: »

Did they put a roof over Limerick ?

We're not a whole lot different to Amsterdam in terms of rainfall. See below.

LeoD

marno21 wrote: »

Protected roads were in law before but were never built, now we are getting 3 of them:

Galway Ring Road from the N59 junction to Barna (the rest of it will be M6 - motorway, no development)
Limerick-Foynes from Rathkeale to Foynes (the rest of it will be M21 - motorway, no development)
Cork-Ringaskiddy from Barnhely to the Port (the rest will be M28 - motorway, no development)

TII, unlike the NRA before them, now have a policy of objecting to developments which cause detrimental effects on the national road network. There won't be giant estates going up just off the new M6 in Galway, especially given that the old N6 will become a bus corridor and will attract new development for that.

Sorry, and I am not trying to be funny or smart, but I am still none the wiser as to what a "protected road" is. There are numerous junctions on the proposed Galway ring road. These junctions contain roads that connect Galway city and county. How can you prevent new development from ever happening anywhere along these roads, or on roads that eventually connect to these roads? The same can be said for the other 2 roads.

LeoD

jonski wrote: »

Did they put a roof over Limerick ?

They don't have a roof over Copenhagen either:

Copenhagen
Average precipitation days (≥ 0.1 mm): 157.4
Average snowy days: 21.4
Daily mean °C: 8.2
Trips to work and study by bike: 41%


Limerick
Average precipitation days (≥ 1.0 mm): 159
Average snowy days: 7.9
Daily mean °C: 10.7
Trips to work and study by bike: 3%

marno21

LeoD wrote: »

Sorry, and I am not trying to be funny or smart, but I am still none the wiser as to what a "protected road" is. There are numerous junctions on the proposed Galway ring road. These junctions contain roads that connect Galway city and county. How can you prevent new development from ever happening anywhere along these roads, or on roads that eventually connect to these roads? The same can be said for the other 2 roads.

A protected road is a road protected in law against the local authority using it as a development road, no shopping centres etc. It would stop the single carriageway element of the new Ring Road becoming a mess

The motorway element of the scheme from the N59 to the M6 junction will be as like any motorway. TII object to any developments they believe will cause an issue with flow on the national road network

zulutango

marno21 wrote: »

A protected road is a road protected in law against the local authority using it as a development road, no shopping centres etc. It would stop the single carriageway element of the new Ring Road becoming a mess

So it doesn't protect against car centric development outside the route corridor?

MrLaurel

zulutango wrote: »

It's only a 30 minute cycle from Corbally to Raheen Industrial Estate. That's definitely an option for lots of folks who are currently driving. The idea that you have to route traffic through the centre of town because there's no alternatives is utterly bogus.

Yes it's an option if you don't have children who have to be picked up at certain times and brought to different activities in different parts of the City but I'd be willing to guess that cycling would suit a small minority.

Zulutango, may I ask if you have children? I have read several of your posts about City Centre living etc and you seem very passionate about it but would / does it suit you if you have children?

OfTheMarsWongs

LeoD wrote: »

You might even be quicker not going through the city according to the all knowledgeable Google if you want to get from Corbally to Raheen at 8:30am tomorrow morning.

Google is having a laugh. You'd be a half hour driving that right hand route as far as Galvone at 8.30. Add another 10 to Raheen.

zulutango

MrLaurel wrote: »

Yes it's an option if you don't have children who have to be picked up at certain times and brought to different activities in different parts of the City but I'd be willing to guess that cycling would suit a small minority.

Of course. No disagreement there. But wouldn't it be great if kids didn't need to be driven everywhere? There has been a total collapse in the number of kids cycling to school in the last three decades, for example. This can be put down to a number of factors, i.e. roads becoming more dangerous, parents becoming more careful, parents becoming more affluent (two car families), and of course kids not living within cycling distance of schools because families choose not to (and our local authorities have enabled this).

When i went to school there were a huge number of bike racks and they frequently weren't enough to cater for the needs of the students. In recent years the same school has knocked the large bike sheds (and basketball court) and turned it into a large car park. I wonder how many kids are driving themselves to school, let alone being driven by their parents.

I grew up in Limerick City, and wasn't driven anywhere. There was no reason to be. For a long time my family didn't have a car because we couldn't afford one. We weren't unusual in that regard. I played lots of sport and walked and cycled from age 5 or 6.

MrLaurel wrote: »

Zulutango, may I ask if you have children? I have read several of your posts about City Centre living etc and you seem very passionate about it but would / does it suit you if you have children?

No worries. Happy to answer any question. No, I don't have children. But if I have a family in the future I'm quite certain I'll be living near the city or in the heart of it. There's too many disadvantages to not living in it, in my opinion. I don't buy the argument that it's not possible to raise a family in or near the city. Maybe I see it that way because I come from the city and it holds no mystery or challenge for me really. Having said that, I know that others are to be convinced and we can and should do a hell of a lot more in Limerick to make it attractive for families to live in.

LeoD

MrLaurel wrote: »

Yes it's an option if you don't have children who have to be picked up at certain times and brought to different activities in different parts of the City but I'd be willing to guess that cycling would suit a small minority.

Zulutango, may I ask if you have children? I have read several of your posts about City Centre living etc and you seem very passionate about it but would / does it suit you if you have children?

But this is exactly the problem we have today - we are completely car dependent because our streets are designed to move motor traffic through them as quickly as possible. What if we had wide, direct, connected & safe bike routes around the city instead of multi-lane motor carriageways? When you say children, what age are you talking about? 1-5, 6-10, 11-13, 14-17? Very young children would need to be accompanied but kids from the age of 10 up should be able to go where they want, when they want. I have kids and we're just starting to get into this bs car taxiing service to this that and the other because there are no alternatives which really annoys me. I want my kids to have their independence, I want them to incorporate some physical activity into their daily lives, I want using a bike to get from A to B for the young, old and everyone in between to be as normal as walking instead of having to drive them to a park at the weekend for 47 minutes of cycling time. If you still want to drive your car that's fine too but the movement of motor traffic should never be prioritised over walking, cycling and public transport in urban areas - as mandated in existing national transport policies, but continually ignored by local authorities.

LeoD

jonski wrote: »

Is there any chance we could have our random waffle thread back ?

Fair point. Maybe there should be a separate Limerick transport thread so my last post on this one is just to show what is possible if you have safe bike infrastructure in your city. We don't need cars to ferry kids around the place.

yop

From the waffle thread this is now deemed above waffle and has been awarded Fridays "My Own Thread".

Ill move over the other posts.

zulutango

Apparently the Limerick Councillors are up in arms with County Clare's plans to apply to develop a strategic economic zone across the river from UL. Well, that's what you get for giving the Northern Distributor Road the green light.