Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830106#Comment_121830106

I think that we are decades away from that - it's nothing more than a vague line drawn on a schematic map.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830140#Comment_121830140

Yes, but realistically the same for the Green Line Metro upgrade.

KrisW1001

The proper way to do this would be to branch the Green line after Charlemont, heading toward UCD and Stillorgan, reconnecting with Sandyford via that route.

Then once that alternative corridor is in place, you can close the Western Green brach and upgrade it to Metro.

No politician would ever approve an upgrade that breaks connection on Green line for four years: cutting the line in two at Ranelagh forces commuters to make a 1.4km walk in the middle of their commute.. most will either drive or get a bus instead, with predictable chaos.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829895#Comment_121829895

Wait, was the intention with conversion of green line to metrolink that there would be no station at Ranelagh?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121831481#Comment_121831481

It was not the intention, but rather the unavoidable outcome.

spacetweek

This is the first I’m hearing of this. City centre passengers will still easily get to Ranelagh but coming from the south it won’t be easy anymore.

And the UCD Luas and Green Line Metro conversion are not decades away. We should be getting underway on the Luas before Metrolink is done and doing the Metro Upgrade right after. If that’s not how the priorities look now, they need to change.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834908#Comment_121834908

I think you need to familiarise yourself with the NTA Greater Dublin Transport Strategy then. They certainly are decades away.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835427#Comment_121835427

This document is updated every 6 years or so. I know in the current plan, the Luas lines are post 2042. However I strongly suspect that is because they are managing expectations and keeping the focus on Metrolink and getting that started.

Once Metrolink is started and certainly as it approaches completion, I expect this to radically change as they turn their attention to what is next and I expect a lot of these plans to be brought forward.

The most obvious evidence of this is the post 2042 network doesn’t show any extension of the Finglas Luas to Daridstown/Airport, even though we all know it is a no brainer simple and cheap upgrade.

It is quickly becoming obvious that BusConnect Infrastructure project is unlikely to keep up with demand and in particular the driver shortages. I suspect we will see the Luasification of the major bus routes much sooner then originally planned.

I really wouldn’t read too much into what the current strategy document says.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835716#Comment_121835716

I would agree with that.

Once the TBM is in the ground, then the real plans for Luas routes for GL North and ML south of Charlemont will begin with some urgency.

The options for the GL North would be to go along Adelaide Road towards GCD or towards UCD. Or alternatively go west from Harcourt along SCR towards Dolphins Barn - or both.

Lots to think about.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829721#Comment_121829721

What about the OHL electrical changeover though? I imagine the different voltages will mean insulator replacement/upgrades etc?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830106#Comment_121830106

So build another rail line in that area to close the GL so it can be upgraded?

How much will that cost to build and what’s the CBA for that parallel line once the GL is uprated vs a metro SW that is badly needed?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835969#Comment_121835969

I've seen folks mention different voltages, but while I'm not 100%, I believe Metrolink will use the same voltage. Luas use 750v DC, which is pretty standard for Metro's like this, for instance the Copenhagen Metro that this is quiet similar also uses 750v DC (though third rail rather then overhead).

Of course there would still be work to do, but I'm not certain there is a major change required here.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835969#Comment_121835969

The O/H wires on the Dart were replaced from Bray to CC a few years ago. Was not a big operation.

The new bridge for St Raphaella's Rd requires to be done, with a new station on top. That could be done anytime as it is needed anyway.

The insulators are nothing to worry about. With trains every minute, the line has to be segregated from people which requires crossing points - bridges, tunnels and the like. Platform height is different, so temporary structures could be used to speed the transition.

The in-line tunnelling is a significant cause of the long closure. That needs a rethink.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835986#Comment_121835986

The CBA of a Luas line to UCD would be vastly better then a Metro to the SW.

The Luas line would be relatively cheap to build as it would mostly just replace the QBC on a very wide road, with only limited pinch points. Not a particularly expensive project.

By comparison a SW Metro will likely end up costing 5 Billion+

Remember, cost plays into a CBA, so to give a very simple example, lets say a UCD Luas ends up costing 300 million and carries 6,000 in the morning peak, while the SW Metro ends up costing 5 Billion and ends up carrying 8,000 in the morning peak. Yes, the SW Metro carries more, but the high cost makes it a worse CBA. Of course a lot more goes into a CBA and these are made up numbers, but hopefully it makes sense.

I'd also disagree that it is really close to the GL. This corridor is one of the busiest in the city for buses and it is pretty much a no brainer for a Luas line.

Again, I suspect we will see Luas lines built out all along the core bus corridors. It is obvious now that the buses can't handle the numbers of passengers and the driver shortages and we need to broadly switch to Luas across the city.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835986#Comment_121835986

+1

There is no chance Sandyford is getting a second rail link when most of the city has none.

The southern Tallaght to Coolock/Clonshaugh via Templeogue, Terenure, Beaumont, metro route is the one which takes in the largest area of rail transport desert in the city. It will be over capacity from day 1.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836234#Comment_121836234

It does seem silly. A replacement bus service while the upgrade works go ahead is fine. They can rapid build a new bus corridor through Ranelagh and Dubdrum and have a high frequency bus for the duration of the works. This is standard in all major cities globally.

Once we have DART+ Swords-Sandyford, Tallaght-Coolock and Lucan-Ringsend all as frequent driverless 24hr metro we'll be sorted, just need to replace the main bus corridors with luas then and perhaps build an orbital metro. The silliness of busconnects will be long behind us by then.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836234#Comment_121836234

It isn't about Sandyford getting a second line, it is about UCD and this entire corridor, one of the busiest bus corridors in the city getting Luas.

And it isn't just this line, it is the entire post 2042 Luas network, which includes half a dozen new lines around the city. Yes, including two lines to the SW.

I'm not saying the SW shouldn't be served, but for the cost of a SW Metro, you could probably deliver that entire post 2042 Luas network, which would serve far more of Dublin.

Folks here seem to be making out that there is some sort of competition between a SW Metro and GL upgrade Metro, UCD Luas, etc. There really isn't, there are different projects serving different areas. A SW Metro needs to justify itself on it's own merits, with it's own positive CBA.

BTW I say all this as someone who lives in the NE of Dublin and thus have no Metro/Luas/DART near me either, just bus. I'd very much benefit from a SW to NE Metro, but realistically I see it as extremely unlikely in my lifetime.

csirl

One thing that needs to be considered is that the N11 route has a succesful functioning bus corridor. Its not possible to put bus lanes in each direction along most of the SW metro.

I do think the projects are competing with each other. There's a limit on the available funding and TII seems to do things in a piecemeal sequential manner rather than having multiple large projects on site.

After (if) MN is built, the other projects will be competing for the nect tranche of funding. Which gets chosen may be a political decision rather than a logical one.

Idbatterim

what can a double decker hold v our current longest trams in terms of passengers?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836536#Comment_121836536

That isn't an issue, the buses can use the Luas tracks. Also you'd have far less buses anyway as they would be replaced by the Luas.

Again, this is likely to happen on all the core Bus routes, Swords Road, etc. Just look at the post 2042 map.

After (if) MN is built, the other projects will be competing for the nect tranche of funding. Which gets chosen may be a political decision rather than a logical one.

If we can afford to do both Metrolink and DART+ and the same time, then there is no reason why we couldn't do a relatively cheap green line Metro upgrade, cheap UCD Luas + SW Metro.

All these projects would add up to much less then Metrolink + DART+ + Busconnects

Realistically a SW Metro looks to have a very poor CBA, that is the problem it faces. It will really be competing with the two proposed SW Luas lines.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836655#Comment_121836655

I refer you to my post of 28th Feb above.

Tram - 408 passengers

Bus - Approximately 70

So 6 buses per tram, and with 15 trams an hour at peak, that’s a requirement for 90 buses an hour doubled for the return trip - meaning a peak vehicle requirement of up to 180 buses. Realistically probably 150-160.

That is a lot of extra buses and drivers to find, and you’d probably need to source them from GB given it would be a one-off situation.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836690#Comment_121836690

Double deckers are 80 to 90 depending on model. Up to 120 if you use tri-axles.

Of course the requirements are much lower if you have a UCD Luas running in parallel.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836101#Comment_121836101

I know the line has to be segregated from traffic and pedestrians to bring it up to automated metro standard.

However there are two other main issue's bar the tunnel portal tie in:

the different electrical systems for LUAS and metro (although @bk has questioned this so this may not be an issue?)

The height difference between low floor LUAS and high floor metro- although I don’t know what the difference in height is? Someone may be able to provide clarity on this.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836146#Comment_121836146

When looking at the CBA for a parallel LUAS to the GL that will be upgraded to a metro- the fact that you are upgrading the GL to metro needs to be factored in to the parallel LUAS line so would reduce the business case for the parallel line.

On top of that how do you know that there aren’t transmission gas, water, electrical lines that would need to be diverted to allow a LUAS to be built in the QBCs on the N11? This would be a large cost.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836382#Comment_121836382

Again though there’s no room for LUAS lines in the SW- it’s a metro that’s needed.

A LUAS in parallel with the metro GL would also have to justify a positive CBA- how would that be possible when you factor in the metro catchment area?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836830#Comment_121836830

This is all detailed in the TII docs on the Green line Upgrade. AFAIR the platforms need to be increased by 600mm.

However Sam is correct, the biggest delay would be cosntructing the tunnel inline. If you instead construct the tunnel offline, it becomes much easier.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836871#Comment_121836871

I mean there absolutely is space, we just remove cars and give the space to Luas. They didn't include two SW Luas lines in the transport strategy for the fun of it!

This isn't rocket science, old medieval cities all over Europe build tram lines through such narrow corridors.

A LUAS in parallel with the metro GL would also have to justify a positive CBA- how would that be possible when you factor in the metro catchment area?

Of course it would need it's own CBA, but for the most part it's catchment area doesn't overlap with the GL. It would near Charlemont, but then so would a SW Metro.

The fact that it is one of the busiest bus routes in the country clearly shows that it's catchment area doesn't really overlap with the GL Luas.

Again, you are making this some weird SW versus GL/UCD line thing, it really isn't. Like I'm not just talking about a UCD Luas, but a Lucan Luas, Swords Luas, etc.

A SW Metro has to compete with it's own CBA and with the two SW Luas lines.

bk

So I think we need to step back and look at the bigger picture.

The southern corridor has and will continue to see massive growth. Sandyford, Cherrywood and the planned Luas extension to Bray. There is no way the Green line is going to be able to handle this growing demand.

There are only two realistic options to handle this increase:

• Convert the GL to Metro
• Extend the Metrolink south towards UCD and back to Sandyford. This would allow folks from Sandyford to Bray to switch to the Metrolink there and would leave the GL as is, taking the pressure off needing to upgrade it.

The first option is obviously much cheaper. But if folks are so certain the GL can't be closed, then the second option while be more expensive obviously, might be easier to stomach, with no need to close the GL, etc.

Notice I don't mention the SW, that is because it is a completely different corridor. A SW Metro, either from Charlemont or Stephens Green, isn't going to do anything to help fix the issues of the Southern corridor/GL.

The SW is a stand alone question, much as the NE, Lucan, etc. are. Options will have to be looked at for the SW, either Luas or a standalone Metro, etc.

The only thing I'm saying about the SW, is that it really doesn't make sense for it to extend from Charlemont, if it is a Metro, then a standalone Metro line 2 makes much more sense and for only a small price increase.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836830#Comment_121836830

If the whole ML project south of Charlemont is looked at afresh, then many options could be considered. This was and is not possible until the RO is granted by ABP because it could jeopardise the whole project. They took the sensible option and parked south of Charlemont - the sewer forced this anyway.

Now the proposal to tunnel in line as far as south of Beechwood the cut and cover to link up with the GL has a massive effect involving huge delays and long term closure of the GL.

Joining north of Charlemont is possible if Peter Place is sacrificed. If that is sufficient to get over the GL long shut down, it might be accepted.

An alternative is to tunnel WEST of the GL and joining south of Beechwood. This looks possible from Google Maps. Now this allows the GL to terminate at Beechwood, and the possibility that a connection (for moving Luas sets from Sandyford to Beechwood for service) could be maintained.

The platform issue is not going to be a serious delay because the platforms can be raised using temporary structures. Plat form length might be another issue, but again that is solvable in a similar way.

Just get the TBM into the ground and we can suffer the boring bit.

[EDIT: I made a mistake - tunnel WEST of Beechwood. There is a bit of land where a link appears to have joined there. Now if there is enough room, the tunnel could emerge there and join the existing GL with points that would allow Luas trams to be towed from Sandyford to GL South.]

Idbatterim

Could a temporary luas stop much closer to beechwood be constructed for the tie in, so that it was only a few minute walk if even, to contine your journey after alighting ?