Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824072#Comment_121824072

Yeah I know it, it’s a good lump of land but as you say it can’t all be housing. I’d be more interested in places like ballymount or the parts of sandyford that are low use warehouses and trade counters. Thing is though those businesses need to be somewhere and will be pushed out to start the cycle again.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823489#Comment_121823489

Except that you seem to constantly pick up on a second Sandyford line.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824036#Comment_121824036

There are too many golf courses in that part of Dublin. Golf courses take up a substantial amount of land, often being a net drain on areas.

At the very least we should not hesitate from taking over large chunks of them for construction.

I actually like and play golf myself.

AngryLips

Let's face it, the CBA is designed to fit the political agenda of those making the plans. It is inconceivable to me that a second metro line for the city would not justify a higher CBA outcome when there are plenty of other cities of similar size and profile to Dublin that have far more extensive metro networks. Also, does any of the older CBAs done even fully account for the carbon benefit of improved public transport in the city? Wasn't this something that was only legislated on recently? Of course you get dodgy CBAs when you externalise the costs, sure the NTA did a number on the Dart Underground CBA by tinkering with the assumptions in order to get out of planning for it.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823964#Comment_121823964

Interesting about the 75 second figure... may have been dropped to 90 to allow a wider range of tenders. But even at 90, Metrolink should be able to exceed Milan M4/M5 as the trains will be 30% longer.

Hitachi Italy (formerly AnsaldoBreda) are the train supplier for Milan. That's a 750 V third-rail system, rather than 1.5 kV overhead, but the rest of it is similar to Metrolink, so I imagine they'd be among the bidders to supply Metrolink cars, but whoever wins the contract, it'll be a very similar experience. I was impressed by the M5 when I was in Milan last: I think it was a major influence on Metrolink. (M5 opened about 5 years before M4)

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824221#Comment_121824221

As you are well aware taking over large chunks of them would see them cease to be golf clubs. Apart from the castle and mill town most of the courses in the area are practically in the mountains in that area. I’ve no beef with building in areas or trying to buy out a golf club but they are a used amenity. Not sure how comfortable I am with getting rid of large areas with lots of wildlife and replacing with housing, especially if it’s just to essentially make a metro viable.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824150#Comment_121824150

Yeah certain parts of ballymount industrial/Calmount estate could be redeveloped around a metro station using the T.O.D (transit orientated development) ethos of city planning.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824372#Comment_121824372

I know ballymount quite well, grew up nearby. The lump of land going from the greenhills industrial estate around to walkinstown and out to the m50 is massively underused. Some of the older industrial units have lots of wasted space around on them. It’s probably a great place to develop a new town if there were transport links put in. Again though the industry there does have to be somewhere and it’s pushing it out further again is likely to cause other issues down the road.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824298#Comment_121824298

Milltown, Castle, Grange, Edmonstown, Marley Putting Green all within the M50.

No need for that many.

They are taking up far too much space in one area.

Their value as an amenity is limited to a select few.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824298#Comment_121824298

I think I would disagree that a lot of these golf clubs have lots of wildlife. Most are very carefully curated to not have much wildlife. They're also a private amenity to extremely affluent individuals, not very appropiate in a dense urban setting.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824434#Comment_121824434

Marley putting green? The putting green in the middle of a public park? Thats a push.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824446#Comment_121824446

But they aren’t in a dense urban setting, the talk here is to use them to make a dense urban setting.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824487#Comment_121824487

It’s a Par 3 course.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824554#Comment_121824554

That’s different to the putting green. It seems to get very little use very short and Astro greens. Think it’s a push to put it in with proper courses just to make the list look longer

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824498#Comment_121824498

I don't really know what you would call this other than "dense urban" there's no room for any development around here, and the golf courses aren't exactly an example of diverse wildlife. Nor can you access the green areas without paying a pretty hefty membership fee. Given that it seems like it would be better as housing interspersed with actual diverse accessible parkland

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824565#Comment_121824565

Nope.

What is a push is ignoring that the Grange and Castle don’t just have 18 course golf clubs. The Grange has 24 and the Castle 6 extra Par 3 length holes. And that just off the M50 you have Stackstown, Rathfarnham etc.

It is also a push to claim that manufactured parkland courses are good for wildlife.

Both Foxrock and Kllliney both manage perfectly well with 9 hole clubs.

I play in Woodbrook where we have a leasehold agreement the envy of many and managed to swindle extra holes out of the recent land swaps. That’s more golf holes right beside a brand new DART station.

I’d say there’s very few countries that allow the number of golf courses we have so close to the city.

In terms of the south west, if one of them has to be “sacrificed” to help build a Metrolink and create a new urban area then it’s a cost the city can very much bear. Dún Laoghaire moved courses and we got good dense housing in its place.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824604#Comment_121824604

Suburban semis and detached houses mostly with good size gardens are hardly dense urban. That area is certainly not dense urban

there is also a luas stop right in the middle of the picture

bk

Green space is very important in a city, however I feel all such green space in a city should be publicly owned and broadly open to the public for use as parkland to walk in, picnic in or use shared playing facilities.

A private golf course is of feck all use to the majority in the city, including the majority of people who live in these areas. They might as well not exist as most people can’t make use of them like you would a park.

They also have little environmental benefit, with the heavy use of pesticides, etc. By comparison a public park full of trees and increasingly areas left to grow wild, with wild meadows, etc. have much more environmental benefit.

We seem to have a bit of an obsession in Ireland with walling off and limiting access to parks and greenery. The city is littered with private parks and gated grounds not accessible to the public.

And don’t get me started at the idiots in the OPW who close the Botanic Gardens at 5:30 even in summer, just as people get off work and could perhaps do with a nice walk!

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824743#Comment_121824743

Largely a function of flawed development plans that not only prioritised these kinds of houses, but left little room for public transit, let alone roads. We cannot ignore their proximity to the city though.

If I was the land czar and coming up with routes here, I’d put the Metrolink via Donnybrook, the N11 and UCD before a Green Line tie in at Milltown. I’d CPO 4 holes from Milltown and they can be left with a perfectly pleasant 14 hole course (golf should move that way anyway). I’d upgrade the Green Line south then to Metrolink standard to Sanydord.

I’d make the Green Line then go west from Milltown towards Rathfarnham. I’d CPO well over half of Castle Golf Club for Luas works and build an urban area around it ultimately that can be sold off to private interests to fund the thing. You could go south towards Marley and/or west towards Knocklyon.

I’d then concentrate on a Metro a south west within the Dodder that can be supported by dense populations out Tallaght direction.

To be honest, I would be very curious on some of the leases that golf clubs have and their ties to religious orders etc.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824743#Comment_121824743

A luas stop right beside the golf club. Sounds like the perfect place to insert some dense urban development frankly.

Golf courses serve no greater societal purpose. The number in close proximity inside the M50 on the southside is insanity. I strongly suspect they are a net negative environmentally on top.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824298#Comment_121824298

Golf clubs are wildlife deserts. Monoculture non native grass maintained with pesticides.

spillit67

Golf definitely serves an important purpose in Ireland Inc’s IP.

The number of courses (and the size of them) are clearly out of whack with reality. I concentrate on the South West because that’s an area that desperately needs to density and get some hooks of light or heavy rail is to be a thing.

Tbh the worse thing here is if you have somewhere like the Castle selling off a bit of their lands for housing.

These are huge sites with strategic value for the State.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824407#Comment_121824407

Yeah agreed.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121824873#Comment_121824873

I suppose killininy road, ballyboden way direction isn’t densified enough for you to justify a luas or metro out that direction?

cgcsb

So much arguing over nothing. Look the state has never over invested in rail and if it did it wouldn't be the end of the world either. The state won't collapse if someone can get a seat on their commute for a change and ultimately tallaght needs a direct metro to the city centre. In an ideal world I'd like at least 3 metros in Dublin: Swords-Sandyford, Tallaght-Coolock and Lucan-Ringsend.

You can argue about density all day but there's no way that all three of those lines wouldn't be completely rimmed 10 years after opening in a city starved of infrastructure investment for a century.

Greyian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121825253#Comment_121825253

The issue isn't just the density in an area, but also the density along the entire route.

I live quite near Ballyboden Way, so a Luas or Metro would be ideal for me. I remember a leaflet coming around from Francis Noel Duffy a few years ago, with "plans" for a Metro which would have a stop under the roundabout at Scholarstown Road/Templeroan Road/Ballyboden Way. That would be absolutely ideal for me, less than a 10 minute walk to a Metro station...but it's completely impractical.

What route would a Metro from that roundabout take?

It could either go up through Knocklyon and Firhouse to get to Tallaght, and then run from Tallaght into town (so that way it would link up some relatively dense residential areas), or it could go more directly via Rathfarnham, Terenure, Harold's Cross.

If you go on a big swing to Tallaght, it would make the journey slower (by virtue of the distance). How long would that journey take? It probably wouldn't be dissimilar to existing bus services, which could surely be improved with far cheaper changes. If you go more directly, you're talking about primarily servicing low density residential areas. How many dense apartment schemes are there in the vicinity of Rathfarnham Village or Terenure Village to warrant spending billions of Euro building a Metro line?

While we have individual pockets of relatively dense residential development in Dublin SW, there isn't a line or path of sufficiently dense development. While the area around Ballyboden Way might warrant a Luas/Metro (particularly if the developments at Augustine's and Stocking Lane (planning overturned) were to go ahead), there isn't a path from the city centre to that area which makes any economic sense.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827058#Comment_121827058

So metro SW would imo would start in tallaght, then on to

old bawn

cross the dodder onto killinniny road

knocklyon- scholarstown rd

ballyboden way

ballyboden road

glenbrook

rathfarnham castle

terenure village

rathgar

Harold’s cross

st Patrick’s cathedral

then head towards o connell street and out towards the NE.

Your point regarding densification depends on how you look at things- everyone should have access to quality PT.

This corridor has some of the slowest bus routes in Dublin- there’s no space for luas either, hence a metro is required.

bk

This corridor has some of the slowest bus routes in Dublin- there’s no space for luas either, hence a metro is required.

Well there is space if we just bite the bullet and do what most other European cities do, which is remove the cars and give the space to Luas.

It does feel like we are slowly heading in the direction, so that remains an option too.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827373#Comment_121827373

Your point regarding densification depends on how you look at things- everyone should have access to quality PT.

Which is a lovely sentiment and all, but quite a lot of consideration has to go into the best way to spend 10B€. If bus gates and one-way systems can provide enough bus capacity for the population, or space for a Luas, at a fraction of the price it would be hard to justify a metro.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121827520#Comment_121827520

No absolutely I agree- it’s just I honestly can’t see bus connects addressing the issue and there’s just no space for a LUAS on large parts of the route I’ve highlighted.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805441#Comment_121805441

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805441#Comment_121805441

I admire your ambition, given that the capacity of a Green Line tram is 408 passengers, that's approximately 6 double deck buses per tram.

The peak frequency of the Green Line is already every 4 mins, so at peak times (07:30-09:30) that requires 90 buses an hour to replace the trams, so you're looking at probably 180 buses to keep the capacity alive? That's a lot more than a bus every 3 minutes.

Where are you going to find those buses and more importantly the drivers to do this, considering the problems that we have implementing BusConnects due to driver shortages?

I think that this is rather harder than you are giving credit to it.

I am not saying it can't be done, but let's be realistic about what is involved.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816369#Comment_121816369

Indeed they are, but mostly at weekends when numbers are down, and certainly not for months on end.

Again, this is rather more complicated than the TfL style operation. You are talking months here with an already congested road alternative.

It would be one hell of an operation.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829619#Comment_121829619

I've certainly been on them on weekdays in London! Of course they normally try and keep it to weekends, but some times the works are just too major like this.

BTW Perhaps rather then using regular double decker buses, they could use 25m articulated buses. 2 such buses would almost cover one Luas tram.

Also you could limit the numbers actually using these bus replacement services, by only closing the stations in between Charlemont and Sandyford, but continuing to run the Luas non stop between those sections as the stations in between are upgraded to high floor. That would mean folks from Sandford south would still take the Luas to town as usual and the bus replacement is only picking up lesser numbers from the in between stations.

Of course it depends on how significant the upgrade works in between are.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829721#Comment_121829721

Again, there haven't been LU closures for months on end - a week or two perhaps generally during school holidays. Most of London have alternative rail lines that the buses operate to/from - we don't have that luxury in this case.

I still think you're being very ambitious.

I don't see the original closure plan being modified significantly - the same work would have to happen from south of Beechwood, assuming that's where the portal would be, and that will require a complete line closure for 9 months between Sandyford and the tunnel portal. That's not straightforward no matter how anyone tries to paint it, in an area where congestion is as dreadful as it is.

I'm not saying that it cannot be done, but let's not kid ourselves. The disruption would be massive.

LXFlyer

Dublin Commuter Coalition put this excellent graphic online back in 2019 that explains the closures required.

Move everything a stop further south in terms of impact (assuming portal is south of Beechwood).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829817#Comment_121829817

Just an example of months long closure on the London Underground:

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2021-11-05/london-underground-key-parts-of-northern-line-to-close-for-four-months

Of course it would probably be better to build the UCD Luas line first as that could take the pressure off during the closures.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829957#Comment_121829957

Fair point, but we are comparing apples with oranges here. That was a closure in central London where there were a multitude of high capacity alternative rail routes in that particular case along with buses.

There isn’t one with the Green Line.

Podge_irl

Rail replacement bus services are common, often for months at a time, on mainline train services. Now the frequency is nowhere near as high, but the heavy rail is also much higher capacity.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether it's common elsewhere or not. The question is just whether it needs to be done, and all projections suggest eventually it will have to be.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830014#Comment_121830014

Yes, that is why I'd suggest build the Charlemont - UCD - Sandyford parallel line first. It would take the pressure off, folks from Sandyford and south of there could use this line while the works are under way on the Green line.

Your replacement bus service is then handling only the stations between Charlemont and Sandyford.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830083#Comment_121830083

It's not on the same scale to be honest as would be required in this situation.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830106#Comment_121830106

I think that we are decades away from that - it's nothing more than a vague line drawn on a schematic map.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830140#Comment_121830140

Yes, but realistically the same for the Green Line Metro upgrade.

KrisW1001

The proper way to do this would be to branch the Green line after Charlemont, heading toward UCD and Stillorgan, reconnecting with Sandyford via that route.

Then once that alternative corridor is in place, you can close the Western Green brach and upgrade it to Metro.

No politician would ever approve an upgrade that breaks connection on Green line for four years: cutting the line in two at Ranelagh forces commuters to make a 1.4km walk in the middle of their commute.. most will either drive or get a bus instead, with predictable chaos.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829895#Comment_121829895

Wait, was the intention with conversion of green line to metrolink that there would be no station at Ranelagh?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121831481#Comment_121831481

It was not the intention, but rather the unavoidable outcome.

spacetweek

This is the first I’m hearing of this. City centre passengers will still easily get to Ranelagh but coming from the south it won’t be easy anymore.

And the UCD Luas and Green Line Metro conversion are not decades away. We should be getting underway on the Luas before Metrolink is done and doing the Metro Upgrade right after. If that’s not how the priorities look now, they need to change.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834908#Comment_121834908

I think you need to familiarise yourself with the NTA Greater Dublin Transport Strategy then. They certainly are decades away.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835427#Comment_121835427

This document is updated every 6 years or so. I know in the current plan, the Luas lines are post 2042. However I strongly suspect that is because they are managing expectations and keeping the focus on Metrolink and getting that started.

Once Metrolink is started and certainly as it approaches completion, I expect this to radically change as they turn their attention to what is next and I expect a lot of these plans to be brought forward.

The most obvious evidence of this is the post 2042 network doesn’t show any extension of the Finglas Luas to Daridstown/Airport, even though we all know it is a no brainer simple and cheap upgrade.

It is quickly becoming obvious that BusConnect Infrastructure project is unlikely to keep up with demand and in particular the driver shortages. I suspect we will see the Luasification of the major bus routes much sooner then originally planned.

I really wouldn’t read too much into what the current strategy document says.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835716#Comment_121835716

I would agree with that.

Once the TBM is in the ground, then the real plans for Luas routes for GL North and ML south of Charlemont will begin with some urgency.

The options for the GL North would be to go along Adelaide Road towards GCD or towards UCD. Or alternatively go west from Harcourt along SCR towards Dolphins Barn - or both.

Lots to think about.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121829721#Comment_121829721

What about the OHL electrical changeover though? I imagine the different voltages will mean insulator replacement/upgrades etc?