Migration Megathread

Help!!!!

MrFresh wrote: »

But in reality,

Ah sure thats alright then:rolleyes:
1 jihadi is too many
Do you think we should be bringing back those who went to fight for ISIS?

Midlife

Help!!!! wrote: »

OK so take away the terrorism part of Islam
50% approx of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal
Here in Ireland we have slowly gotten free of religious institutions & have moved forwards with regards the LGBTQ society now we are bringing in people who are fervently into their religion who are less tolerant. Then theres how they are taught to view women from the west or women who do not dress modestly.
If there was no problems in other countries I would have no problems but I lived in London long enough to see the change in the last couple of decades

Fine, but that's a completly different argument.

My opinion on that is that our values are of benefit to us and should stay. Government and policy needs to play an active part in integration.

However, you note that we have slowly gotten free of religious institutions.

Others will do the same provided they feel some form of social belonging to something other than Islam. Ghettos are a disaster for this stuff though.

MrFresh

Help!!!! wrote: »

Ah sure thats alright then:rolleyes:

It's not alright but it's a reason not to fear all Muslims.

Help!!!! wrote: »

1 jihadi is too many
Do you think we should be bringing back those who went to fight for ISIS?

Only to prosecute them

Help!!!!

Midlife wrote: »

Fine, but that's a completly different argument.

My opinion on that is that our values are of benefit to us and should stay. Government and policy needs to play an active part in integration.

However, you note that we have slowly gotten free of religious institutions.

Others will do the same provided they feel some form of social belonging to something other than Islam. Ghettos are a disaster for this stuff though.

Thats true
For me personally I dont have any faith in the government or politicians to integrate them properly, they only want the Muslim block vote. Like in the UK the Muslim sex grooming gangs was covered up by politicians, police, care workers so as not to offend. I can see the same thing happening here unfortunately

Help!!!!

MrFresh wrote: »

It's not alright but it's a reason not to fear all Muslims.





Only to prosecute them

I dont fear all Muslims. I have worked with many for years in London, some are good friends that I catch up with when I'm over there. Also there are of course 2 main sects of Islam, unfortunately we are letting in a majority from the one with the most problems.
I am concerned that our government wont integrate them properly & that we will end up with the same crap thats happening in the UK & all across Europe

Irish Praetorian

MrFresh wrote: »

But in reality,

Did you know only about 0.023% of the Irish population serves in the defence forces? The ratio is probably closer to 0.03% for most European states, not counting those with conscription, but you can see that there's something of a problem when more military age miles sign up to fight for a foreign theocratic entity rather than the armed forces of their home (birthhome or adoptive). Its something of a troubling reality in the UK that British Muslims are about as likely to be found fighting for various Syrian extremist groups as they are to be found fighting for the British Army. And of course, this is all before we consider the numbers of people who might support a goal without picking up a rifle to fight for it.

MrFresh

Help!!!! wrote: »

I dont fear all Muslims. I have worked with many for years in London, some are good friends that I catch up with when I'm over there. Also there are of course 2 main sects of Islam, unfortunately we are letting in a majority from the one with the most problems.
I am concerned that our government wont integrate them properly & that we will end up with the same crap thats happening in the UK & all across Europe

I think that sounds like a reason to change our government, not block Muslims from coming into the country.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Did you know only about 0.023% of the Irish population serves in the defence forces? The ratio is probably closer to 0.03% for most European states, not counting those with conscription, but you can see that there's something of a problem when more military age miles sign up to fight for a foreign theocratic entity rather than the armed forces of their home (birthhome or adoptive). Its something of a troubling reality in the UK that British Muslims are about as likely to be found fighting for various Syrian extremist groups as they are to be found fighting for the British Army. And of course, this is all before we consider the numbers of people who might support a goal without picking up a rifle to fight for it.

Our armed forces numbers are decided by recruitment limits.

Help!!!!

MrFresh wrote: »

I think that sounds like a reason to change our government, not block Muslims from coming into the country.

Never said to block Muslims
If they come for work & there are jobs available then no probs, as long as they assimilate, same as any other religion/culture

Irish Praetorian

MrFresh wrote: »

Our armed forces numbers are decided by recruitment limits.

As opposed to the UK, which is famously tight-fisted when it comes to recruiting soldiers and doesn't need to plaster television with ads nor canvass schools in order to fill its ranks?

MrFresh

Help!!!! wrote: »

Never said to block Muslims
If they come for work & there are jobs available then no probs, as long as they assimilate, same as any other religion/culture

Refugees then.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

As opposed to the UK, which is famously tight-fisted when it comes to recruiting soldiers and doesn't need to plaster television with ads nor canvass schools in order to fill its ranks?

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. They advertise to get the best candidates, much like police do.

stefanovich

Help!!!! wrote: »

Never said to block Muslims
If they come for work & there are jobs available then no probs, as long as they assimilate, same as any other religion/culture

They appear to have a tendency to keep to themselves. Strict muslims are taught to not assimilate.

I posted a link to the ummah forum which is English language and it a great insight into the minds of your average Muslim in the west. It got removed for some reason so if interested I am sure people can google.

They have a questions and answers forum... Such dilemmas as how to avoid music, how to deal with evil spirits etc etc. It's all a bit barmy to to honest. There are also some pretty extreme views on certain things

Irish Praetorian

MrFresh wrote: »

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. They advertise to get the best candidates, much like police do.

I think the point was fairly clear - there is a problem, and that is that about as many British Muslims (taking the British example) are under arms for the British Army as are under arms for radical Islamist groups. I'll forgo any implications for now and try to see if we can agree on that simple statistical point.

Kermit.de.frog

MrFresh wrote: »

No, I think I read it just fine. You made a good point about change in the Middle East at the start and end but in the middle you went on a good old fearmongering rant which is what I addressed.

No, you did not.

Pointing out reality on the ground in certain communities in England's largest cities, by definition, is not fear mongering.

It is, in the first instance accepting the problems that exist and are growing, and in the second trying to find solutions.

You don't find solutions by being in denial about the problems.

Balf

I think this article is pretty good at catching where our nationl discussion is at the moment.

https://jamestown.org/program/ireland-faces-conundrum-of-jihadist-returnees/

During the past few months, the mainly-Kurdish Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) have captured several jihadists of Irish nationality, forcing Ireland to confront the fact that up to several dozen of its citizens have joined the Islamic State (IS) in recent years. These include both native-born converts and more recent immigrants. The developments have come as a shock to Ireland, which has typically viewed itself as more successful at integrating immigrants than other European states, including the United Kingdom. ....

The Irish Government’s response to the revelations that a number of its citizens had not only been active in IS, but had been captured and, like Lisa Smith, now expect to come “home” has been hesitant and largely ad-hoc. ....

The country, due to its small number of jihadists and Islamist extremists, also lacks both counter-radicalization and de-radicalization programs. At present, it seems unlikely that jihadists will target Ireland directly, as its neutral foreign policy means it is relatively unappealing compared to other countries such as the UK. .....

I suspect we don't know what to do about this, and hope its all like a bit of bad weather that will pass without having to actually make any challenging decisions about anything.

Dannyriver

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No, you did not.

Pointing out reality on the ground in certain communities in England's largest cities, by definition, is not fear mongering.

It is, in the first instance accepting the problems that exist and are growing, and in the second trying to find solutions.

You don't find solutions by being in denial about the problems.

The solution is to educate both the migrants coming into the country about the majority [ie its the minority of westerners who are racist] and the natives who fear them [its the minority of muslims who are terrorist]. Integration /education/integration /education. The key for Ireland is to not make the same mistakes as the colonial European nations such as France , Spain, or the UK who ****ed up over the last 40 years or so by marginalising immigrants feeding fear and suspicion instaed of easing it. Again Education/integration/education/integration.

Kermit.de.frog

Dannyriver wrote: »

The solution is to educate both the migrants coming into the country about the majority [ie its the minority of westerners who are racist] and the natives who fear them [its the minority of muslims who are terrorist]. Integration /education/integration /education. The key for Ireland is to not make the same mistakes as the colonial European nations such as France , Spain, or the UK who ****ed up over the last 40 years or so by marginalising immigrants feeding fear and suspicion instaed of easing it. Again Education/integration/education/integration.

Ok so let's talk brass tax.

For example,

What are we going to do with the first cleric that preaches fundamentalist islam on impressionable 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants as is rife across communities in England?

Are we going to kick those people out?

Have we the laws and mechanisms in place to remove them from the country?

Because in the UK this seems to be the biggest single problem facing them - their seeming inability to get these clerics out of their country that are doing enormous damage to young people. (and that's just the ones the security services know about)

We are not talking immigrant arrivals from last year, last decade or 20 years a go. We are talking about the children who are being indoctrinated in Mosques with the most absurd and dangerous ideology.

Forgive me if i'm sceptical that we will nip that in the bud.

Ultimate Seduction

Midlife wrote: »

What other foreign terror organisations are there like ISIS?

Are you saying ISIS only formed because of Islam?

ISIS killed more middle eastern Muslims than anyone else, so please tell how they are after revenge for the West's wrong doings?

Dannyriver

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ok so let's talk brass tax.

For example,

What are we going to do with the first cleric that preaches fundamentalist islam on impressionable 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants as is rife across communities in England?

Are we going to kick those people out?

Have we the laws and mechanisms in place to remove them from the country?

Because in the UK this seems to be the biggest single problem facing them - their seeming inability to get these clerics out of their country that are doing enormous damage to young people. (and that's just the ones the security services know about)

We are not talking immigrant arrivals from last year, last decade or 20 years a go. We are talking about the children who are being indoctrinated in Mosques with the most absurd and dangerous ideology.

Forgive me if i'm sceptical that we will nip that in the bud.

Unfortunately in the UK and France the die is cast and they re playing catch up. My point is that we need to not make the same mistakes over here and ensure a smoother integration. I work in education and I see it in the class rooms where young Irish girls and boys are far more understanding of Muslim culture than their parents due to sitting beside muslim kids in school and realising that people are just people regardless of background. It's a genuinely beautiful thing to see.

Anyone who preaches intolerance and incites violence or hatred should be coerced according to the law and de-platformed as what should happen to Tommy Robinson and his ilk who try to radicalise young white males or closer to home those who radicalised the Derry teenagers who murdered Lyra McKee last week.

Midlife

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

ISIS killed more middle eastern Muslims than anyone else, so please tell how they are after revenge for the West's wrong doings?

You just quoted a question, didn't actually answer it, and fired in a strawman for good luck.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and Junky hit by car i think is relevant. Telling us that it was an islamic terrorist attack is relevant. We need to know which groups are committing the attacks so we can work at solving the issue, also gives a huge key to their motivations.

It might not. Straight off you can see the eyes rolling of the readers assuming the junky must have done something to cause it.
I completely agree on the rest. If a man mugs a pensioner, be he a Calvanist or Mormon, does not matter. It does not relate to religion or ethnicity. That's the point. Unless we are spouting racism, attributing traits on an entire people with justification based on the negative acts of individuals from a group we don't like. Do you keep score of how many crimes are committed by Irish Catholics? We don't unless it's troubles related because then it's relevant.

Ultimate Seduction

Midlife wrote: »

You just quoted a question, didn't actually answer it, and fired in a strawman for good luck.

Ya I quoted that but I'm asking you a question based on the nonsense you're spouting.

It's about religion not revenge .

James Brown

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Ya I quoted that but I'm asking you a question based on the nonsense you're spouting.

It's about religion not revenge .

So are all the majority by far peaceful Muslims, bad Muslims, lapsed Muslims? The only 'true' Muslims are the fraction who commit criminal acts?

Midlife

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Ya I quoted that but I'm asking you a question based on the nonsense you're spouting.

It's about religion not revenge .

Then quote what i said and tell me where I'm wrong.

That would be the obvious thing.

You're saying something else and making a statement.

That's not a debate. That's just people shouting random stuff and talking down to each other.

if you wish to do that fine, but don't expect me to engage.

if you want to discuss something, please quote where you disagree with me and I'll try to take it from there.

Cheers

Help!!!!

Dannyriver wrote: »

Unfortunately in the UK and France the die is cast and they re playing catch up. My point is that we need to not make the same mistakes over here and ensure a smoother integration. I work in education and I see it in the class rooms where young Irish girls and boys are far more understanding of Muslim culture than their parents due to sitting beside muslim kids in school and realising that people are just people regardless of background. It's a genuinely beautiful thing to see.

Anyone who preaches intolerance and incites violence or hatred should be coerced according to the law and de-platformed as what should happen to Tommy Robinson and his ilk who try to radicalise young white males or closer to home those who radicalised the Derry teenagers who murdered Lyra McKee last week.

Its not the children in the classroom thats the problem though is it?
I'm sure the UK, France, Germany etc felt the same way except those kids get older.
Have you ever lived outside of Ireland.
Can you give me an example of Tommy Robinson inciting violence or hatred against Muslims?

Dannyriver

Help!!!! wrote: »

Its not the children in the classroom thats the problem though is it?
I'm sure the UK, France, Germany etc felt the same way except those kids get older.
Have you ever lived outside of Ireland.
Can you give me an example of Tommy Robinson inciting violence or hatred against Muslims?

No it s not , it s the adults like yourself that emphasise difference over tolerance. Stick any amount of children any colour or creed into a room and they ll do just fine until an adult walks in and points a few things out. I ve lived in numerous European countries, 2 asian cities and 6 years in the middle East. Why do you ask? As for Tommy Robinson , do your own research, won t take you long.

Help!!!!

Dannyriver wrote: »

No it s not , it s the adults like yourself that emphasise difference over tolerance. Stick any amount of children any colour or creed into a room and they ll do just fine until an adult walks in and points a few things out. I ve lived in numerous European countries, 2 asian cities and 6 years in the middle East. Why do you ask? As for Tommy Robinson , do your own research, won t take you long.

So I'm to blame for Muslims raping & killing people in Europe?
Defecating on church grounds?
Setting churches on fire?
Breaking holy statues?
Grooming children?
Rioting because someone throws around a book?
Kill someone for drawing a cartoon?
Why is it that the children are OK? Because when they get older they are forced to go regularly to mosques where they hear they should hate the kuffar
As for TR it actually would take awhile because the majority of what the MSM report is not true & has been proven to be made up

jmayo

Dannyriver wrote: »

No it s not , it s the adults like yourself that emphasise difference over tolerance. Stick any amount of children any colour or creed into a room and they ll do just fine until an adult walks in and points a few things out. I ve lived in numerous European countries, 2 asian cities and 6 years in the middle East. Why do you ask? As for Tommy Robinson , do your own research, won t take you long.

FFS back to the usual shyteology that the reason muslims in Europe are going out and slaughtering their fellow citizens, raping the children of their fellow citizens is because the natives haven't been nice enough to them.

In that case why aren't the kids of christian immigrants from Africa, Carribean, the children of Sikhs, Buddists or Hindus also out slaughtering their fellow citizens ?
Did they never experience any discrimination or racism ?

How come the kids of Nigerians christians and Carribean immigrants to Britain aren't hacking the heads off off duty soldiers ?

Oh wait correction that actually happened. :eek:

But the common denominator of the two, as per 99.9% of these cases, was that they were muslim at the time of the attacks.

Maybe they didn't realise people like the poster Help!! weren't inclusive enough until they became muslim. :rolleyes:

Dannyriver

jmayo wrote: »

FFS back to the usual shyteology that the reason muslims in Europe are going out and slaughtering their fellow citizens, raping the children of their fellow citizens is because the natives haven't been nice enough to them.

In that case why aren't the kids of christian immigrants from Africa, Carribean, the children of Sikhs, Buddists or Hindus also out slaughtering their fellow citizens ?
Did they never experience any discrimination or racism ?

How come the kids of Nigerians christians and Carribean immigrants to Britain aren't hacking the heads off off duty soldiers ?

Oh wait correction that actually happened. :eek:

But the common denominator of the two, as per 99.9% of these cases, was that they were muslim at the time of the attacks.

Maybe they didn't realise people like the poster Help!! weren't inclusive enough until they became muslim. :rolleyes:

You enjoy a bit of exaggeration there don t you, no wonder you get so triggered if that s your perspective.

Dannyriver

Help!!!! wrote: »

So I'm to blame for Muslims raping & killing people in Europe?
Defecating on church grounds?
Setting churches on fire?
Breaking holy statues?
Grooming children?
Rioting because someone throws around a book?
Kill someone for drawing a cartoon?
Why is it that the children are OK? Because when they get older they are forced to go regularly to mosques where they hear they should hate the kuffar
As for TR it actually would take awhile because the majority of what the MSM report is not true & has been proven to be made up

yeah that s what I meant by my post that you Mr Help!!!! is responsible for a minuscule amount of extremists breaking the law.

Help!!!!

Dannyriver wrote: »

You enjoy a bit of exaggeration there don t you, no wonder you get so triggered if that s your perspective.

In UK in the 80/90s the Sikh community had to start the Sikh Awareness Society to stop Muslim men kidnapping their young girls?
Many cases in the UK where Muslim grooming gangs were raping young 'white' girls? That were covered up by the police & politicians so as not to offend
Dozens upon dozens of reports of women killed by Muslims around Europe
So not such an exaggeration