Migration Megathread

fly_agaric

Midlife wrote: »

That's very specific.

I think people who argue this on economics are guilty of not being cynical enough.

Does anyone really think that countries like Sweden and Denmark would take people in if it wasn't in their own interest?

I don't know about Denmark, but AFAIR Sweden has in the recent past taken huge numbers (relative to its population) of UN refugees from destitute and wartorn countries. I really struggle to see how such people would ever be of any benefit to Sweden.

The obvious reason for doing it would be that Swedish voters and their politicians thought it was the the correct/moral thing for the government to do to help these people (like protecting the environment, giving untied aid to help develop poorer countries, not staring wars, managing the economy prudently!). It is funny in a dark kind of way that they can't even get credit for that choice, there must have been some (more cynical) ulterior/"real" objective all along!

Midlife

fly_agaric wrote: »

I don't know about Denmark, but AFAIR Sweden has in the recent past taken huge numbers (relative to its population) of UN refugees from destitute and wartorn countries. I really struggle to see how such people would ever be of any benefit to Sweden.

The obvious reason for doing it would be that Swedish voters and their politicians thought it was the the correct/moral thing for the government to do to help these people (like protecting the environment, giving untied aid to help develop poorer countries, not staring wars, managing the economy prudently!). It is funny in a dark kind of way that they can't even get credit for that choice, there must have been some (more cynical) ulterior/"real" objective all along!

Not cynical enough!!

Sweden plannned some time ago (the pensions department are cited as origin of the plan) to bring in 115,000 people per year.

I'm sure they feel good about helping people and that shouldn't be discounted but I'm not niaive enough to think that a nation with enough population, a sufficient birth rate and no demographic issue down the road is going to welcome numbers like that in.

Sand

Midlife wrote: »

I'd say that if you fast forward 20 or so years Sweden and Denmark will have gotten it right.

Fund and demand integration, no ghettos, sustainable numbers coming in etc.

Time will tell I guess.

There's obviously problems there stemmming from the sheer volume of people coming in but I have a feeling they'll deal with them well long term.

20 or so years ago people would be saying the same thing. 20 years from now, they will be saying the same thing. If you want to understand the true timescale of the problem, 410 years after the Ulster Plantation there is still ethnic conflict and bitterness in Northern Ireland and the ethnic division dominates politics in that region.

There are consequences to the policy of mass migration which Sweden, Denmark and others pursued for decades. The consequences are entirely self-inflicted. They cannot be avoided.

Midlife wrote: »

Does anyone really think that countries like Sweden and Denmark would take people in if it wasn't in their own interest?

That question could be unwrapped. Do governments always make decisions in the interests of the entire country, or more often in the interests of specific interest groups? At no point was mass migration in the interests of Europeans, but still that policy was pursued. An entire private-public industry has built up to support, service, mediate and regulate mass migration and its consequences. The stakeholders in that industry will of course advocate for more migration, and more spending on migration because it is their livelihood. They will lobby in the same way big oil, big pharma or tobacco companies will regardless of the impact on the rest of society.

Even apart from all that, governments can be mistaken about what is in their countries interests. Ideology can lead countries to pursue disastrous policies despite all contrary evidence. History is littered with examples of the same. The policy of mass migration into Europe, taken against the interests of Europeans by their own governments, will be remembered as just another example of that.

splashuum

After the horrific attacks on Christians today, given the mass Muslim migration we have seen, should we be worried that that an Islamic attack of this magnitude could hit Europe sooner rather than later?

Timberrrrrrrr

splashuum wrote: »

After the horrific attacks on Christians today, given the mass Muslim migration we have seen, should we be worried that that an Islamic attack of this magnitude could hit Europe sooner rather than later?

No

bigpink

splashuum wrote: »

After the horrific attacks on Christians today, given the mass Muslim migration we have seen, should we be worried that that an Islamic attack of this magnitude could hit Europe sooner rather than later?

Deffo look at the Uk no go Muslim areas.See it in Limerick women being made to walk behind men

Hedgelayer

splashuum wrote: »

After the horrific attacks on Christians today, given the mass Muslim migration we have seen, should we be worried that that an Islamic attack of this magnitude could hit Europe sooner rather than later?

I wondered about that, I was watching star war's and the emperor said execute order 66....

That's when all the storm troopers turned on the jedi....

Could this possibly happen on a street or in a western city?

Dannyriver

bigpink wrote: »

Deffo look at the Uk no go Muslim areas.See it in Limerick women being made to walk behind men

I live here and you re right , you can t even go to the shop without falling over women being made to walk behind men. My mother even said it to me today she said Danny I was just down the shops and everywhere you look there are women being made to walk behind men. I think its high time we were suspicious fearful and downright scared of this women walking behind men epidemic in Limerick.

Help!!!!

So in the last week
Sri Lankan attack
Another church in Paris set on fire ( Not Notre Dame but have you seen the new footage of the person on the roof before the fire )
A man attacked a church, fired a firework at congregation while mass was going on, he was overpowered
Muslims rioted in Denmark because some right wing nutjobs were throwing a Quran around & may have covered it in bacon
These & the hundreds of churches set on fire & monuments, statues broken around Europe
Some part of Italy they are covering crosses with black sheets so as not to offend others
We have Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs living around Ireland & Europe but when theres any trouble its usually a Muslim
Do you really think Ireland will get away with the same sh!te?

oscarBravo

Help!!!! wrote: »

...when theres any trouble its usually a Muslim

Yup. A young journalist murdered by a Muslim terrorist in Derry; a teenager stabbed by a Muslim in Armagh; ATMs being ripped out of walls by Muslims driving stolen diggers; Muslim terrorist sympathisers openly marching in the streets of Dublin; firearms seized from Muslim drug dealers in a house search in Tallaght; Muslims planting hoax bombs in Derry; Muslims firing shots in residential areas in Clonsilla and Dundalk.

It would be a grand peaceful wee country if it wasn't for those feckin Muslim troublemakers alright.

James Brown

Help!!!! wrote: »

So in the last week
Sri Lankan attack
Another church in Paris set on fire ( Not Notre Dame but have you seen the new footage of the person on the roof before the fire )
A man attacked a church, fired a firework at congregation while mass was going on, he was overpowered
Muslims rioted in Denmark because some right wing nutjobs were throwing a Quran around & may have covered it in bacon
These & the hundreds of churches set on fire & monuments, statues broken around Europe
Some part of Italy they are covering crosses with black sheets so as not to offend others
We have Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs living around Ireland & Europe but when theres any trouble its usually a Muslim
Do you really think Ireland will get away with the same sh!te?

You carpet bomb a section of people for whatever good intentioned and profitable reason you may have, some of them will be peeved and no mistake. Now if these people have no military they'll resort to guerrilla tactics and 'terrorism'. Some like minded people descended from such regions will take up 'the cause'. Every action has a re-action. We do not have happy go lucky people, minding their own business deciding one day to bomb a restaurant. We have Christians burning down black churches and massacring parishioners, school children, movie goers. All these 'terrorists' have their own reasoning. This is common sense but sadly needs repeating, we cannot, in decent society, treat people differently based on ethnicity or religion. We should however be looking at catching these criminals and seeking to address the problems causing these actions, be it mental health or some cause. On that point, when it's a white Christian it's obviously a mental health issue, but if it's a Muslim, it's the entire religion. Odd that.

Timberrrrrrrr

Help!!!! wrote: »

So in the last week
Sri Lankan attack
Another church in Paris set on fire ( Not Notre Dame but have you seen the new footage of the person on the roof before the fire )
A man attacked a church, fired a firework at congregation while mass was going on, he was overpowered
Muslims rioted in Denmark because some right wing nutjobs were throwing a Quran around & may have covered it in bacon
These & the hundreds of churches set on fire & monuments, statues broken around Europe
Some part of Italy they are covering crosses with black sheets so as not to offend others
We have Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs living around Ireland & Europe but when theres any trouble its usually a Muslim
Do you really think Ireland will get away with the same sh!te?

Jaysus you obviously have no clue! You read this on some gobsh/tes fb or twitter?

The covering of crosses is a christian lenten tradition :rolleyes:

https://aleteia.org/2016/03/19/why-do-we-cover-crucifixes-and-statues-during-lent/

Help!!!!

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You carpet bomb a section of people for whatever good intentioned and profitable reason you may have, some of them will be peeved and no mistake. Now if these people have no military they'll resort to guerrilla tactics and 'terrorism'. Some like minded people descended from such regions will take up 'the cause'. Every action has a re-action. We do not have happy go lucky people, minding their own business deciding one day to bomb a restaurant. We have Christians burning down black churches and massacring parishioners, school children, movie goers. All these 'terrorists' have their own reasoning. This is common sense but sadly needs repeating, we cannot, in decent society, treat people differently based on ethnicity or religion. We should however be looking at catching these criminals and seeking to address the problems causing these actions, be it mental health or some cause. On that point, when it's a white Christian it's obviously a mental health issue, but if it's a Muslim, it's the entire religion. Odd that.

No never said its a whole religion but why do we never hear people saying the same about the Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus?
Why is it a 'artist' can stick Jesus in a box of piss & its acceptable & Christians dont riot
A couple of idiots throw the Quran around theres dozens immediately rioting.
We are always told it is only a handful of extremists but they always seem to show when someone draws a cartoon or throws a book

Help!!!!

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Jaysus you obviously have no clue! You read this on some gobsh/tes fb or twitter?

The covering of crosses is a christian lenten tradition :rolleyes:

https://aleteia.org/2016/03/19/why-do-we-cover-crucifixes-and-statues-during-lent/

Nope

"The crosses on graves in an Italian cemetery in Pieve di Cento have been covered with black cloth so as not to offend those who may come from another religion"

James Brown

Help!!!! wrote: »

No never said its a whole religion but why do we never hear people saying the same about the Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus?
Why is it a 'artist' can stick Jesus in a box of piss & its acceptable & Christians dont riot
A couple of idiots throw the Quran around theres dozens immediately rioting.
We are always told it is only a handful of extremists but they always seem to show when someone draws a cartoon or throws a book

You are inferring it and in this comment also.
You do, by the way just not covered so much in western media. There's always one set of fools willing to attack another and vice versa based on the different.
They can protest actions which insult their religion, isn't that what the good fight is all about, freedom? There are Christians who protest the funerals of American servicemen. If a group of Muslims did it it would make world wide news. Think about that.
Western profiteering drives many of these issues IMO. It's easier to blame a symptom than lose money addressing the cause.
I live near and work with some Muslims. We have no issues, that's not to say some Muslims aren't terrorists and people from my ethnicity/culture aren't tearing up some Muslim majority countries. Do you see where I'm going? To get back on thread topic, immigration should be based on the individual.

Timberrrrrrrr

Help!!!! wrote: »

Nope

"The crosses on graves in an Italian cemetery in Pieve di Cento have been covered with black cloth so as not to offend those who may come from another religion"

Link to this please

Help!!!!

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Link to this please

Heres some but I'm sure there not reliable:rolleyes:

https://www.rt.com/news/456057-italy-church-hides-crosses-offends/

https://www.skyhinews.com/opinion/opinion-hamilton-anti-semitism-a-dachau-memoir%EF%BB%BF/

https://neonnettle.com/news/7083-crosses-covered-up-in-italian-cemetery-to-avoid-offending-other-religions-

Odhinn

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Link to this please

I've searched and - oddly - it only appears on far right/anti-muslim sites.

Timberrrrrrrr

Odhinn wrote: »

I've searched and - oddly - it only appears on far right/anti-muslim sites.

Just finished looking myself and to say the sites reporting it are somewhat dubious would be putting it mildly.

Dannyriver

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Just finished looking myself and to say the sites reporting it are somewhat dubious would be putting it mildly.

Yes the modus operendi of far right news sites, Find an isolated incident , twist its narrative to suit your views , treat the isolated incident as if it is indicative of the majority. The far right audience then dispense of critical thinking faculties in order to consolidate their prejudicial views. and around and around we go .

Help!!!!

Dannyriver wrote: »

Yes the modus operendi of far right news sites, Find an isolated incident , twist its narrative to suit your views , treat the isolated incident as if it is indicative of the majority. The far right audience then dispense of critical thinking faculties in order to consolidate their prejudicial views. and around and around we go .

So the crosses are not covered so as not to offend other religions?
It is not an isolated incident plenty examples all over Europe, including Ireland where Christian relics are covered or taken out of buildings so not to offend others not to mention the dozens of churches set on fire, statues destroyed etc
& by the way the 'left' are pretty good at spinning incidents to suit their own views & are jumped on by their left wing audience
Or even not reporting on them so it doesn't affect their views

Brian?

Help!!!! wrote: »

So the crosses are not covered so as not to offend other religions?
It is not an isolated incident plenty examples all over Europe, including Ireland where Christian relics are covered or taken out of buildings so not to offend others not to mention the dozens of churches set on fire, statues destroyed etc
& by the way the 'left' are pretty good at spinning incidents to suit their own views & are jumped on by their left wing audience
Or even not reporting on them so it doesn't affect their views

The crosses were covered during lent due to the tradition of covering them during lent. Do you accept that or not?

MrFresh

Brian? wrote: »

The crosses were covered during lent due to the tradition of covering them during lent. Do you accept that or not?

Clearly his Christianity is under attack. Don't you think a real Christian such as him would know about such a tradition if it existed?

It does seem this is another case of "fake news" though.

Help!!!!

Brian? wrote: »

The crosses were covered during lent due to the tradition of covering them during lent. Do you accept that or not?

It was not said they were covered for lent, in fact some Italian politicians called it out. I would think they might know if it was for lent or not

Help!!!!

MrFresh wrote: »

Clearly his Christianity is under attack. Don't you think a real Christian such as him would know about such a tradition if it existed?

It does seem this is another case of "fake news" though.

Well when the piece said that some Christian politicians called out the covering of the crosses I would like to think they might have an idea if covered for lent.
Also the crosses are covered in churches not in graveyards so its not a tradition

Eric Cartman

whatever about an actual muslim takeover , when new zealand happened every outlet called them muslims at prayer , made reference to islam etc...

the sri lanka attack and theyre called 'easter worshippers' I have no idea why theres a concerted effort to downplay christianity in the media, especially for victims , by the same media that regularly call muslims 'asian' or avoid using the word muslim whenever they have caused something, but its always in the headline when theyre the victims.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

whatever about an actual muslim takeover , when new zealand happened every outlet called them muslims at prayer , made reference to islam etc...

the sri lanka attack and theyre called 'easter worshippers' I have no idea why theres a concerted effort to downplay christianity in the media, especially for victims , by the same media that regularly call muslims 'asian' or avoid using the word muslim whenever they have caused something, but its always in the headline when theyre the victims.

Only as it relates to a targeted attack on Muslims. I've seen numerous reports related to the attacks on Christians celebrating Easter or at Easter services. When the Jewish synagogue was attacked same thing.
We don't read Christian man stabs partner or passerby, so why should it read Muslim man unless relevant to the story?
There's many an instance were the Muslim attacker is evil and the white Christan guy had issues but was a great kid as we look at video games or something to explain it away.

Eric Cartman

Dannyriver wrote: »

Because the US and western forces didn t invade India or Tibet murdering 100s of thousands of innocent civilians. As someone succinctly put it earlier when you decide to carpet bomb peoples homelands you ll always get some extremists who'll fight back. Have you heard about the British oppression of Ireland and the rise of the IRA?

You would imagine by that logic that Jamaicans and Indians should be blowing up england en masse, or south africans. Or how about the terrorist problem the US have with the Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese ? , why is it that only countries with a majority islamic faith are insistent on this international revenge.

Eric Cartman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Only as it relates to a targeted attack on Muslims. I've seen numerous reports related to the attacks on Christians celebrating Easter or at Easter services. When the Jewish synagogue was attacked same thing.
We don't read Christian man stabs partner or passerby, so why should it read Muslim man unless relevant to the story?
There's many an instance were the Muslim attacker is evil and the white Christan guy had issues but was a great kid as we look at video games or something to explain it away.

and ofcourse it wasn't anyone, but there are outlets that called them 'easter worshippers' that are happy to call them 'muslims' when they are the victims. Media outlets have style guides and so those type of things should be consistent. In this case it feels like some either believed that them being christians was irrelevant or wilfully excluded it.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Enough of the one-liners, link dumps and lazy generalisations please. A few posts have been deleted.