A new playtoy - 181/2 Tractor

roosterman71

Right folks,
The auld lad proudly announced this morning that he's going to buy a brand new tractor :eek:
Be an upgrade on our now 23 year old (it is the newest one we have) JD. So lets all go fantasy tractor shopping.

Here's what it will be at:

• Mowing with 8' Malone (~200 acres/year)
• Raking for hay/silage
• Drawing bales of hay/silage (~1200 a year)
• Random trailer work around the place (gravel, timber, etc)
• Few other random bits

What it won't be doing is feeding cattle or anything like that. In fact, during the winter months it would be doing very little unless there was a few bales to move or some odd jobs around.

So the requirement list!

• Around 100HP. The JD is that but I suspect the newer yokes need a bit extra. Is 100hp 23 years ago the same as 100hp now in terms of pulling power, etc
• Not a big chunky bulky yoke. Essential it isn't very tall or it won't go into a few sheds!
• Loader with pretty quick and responsive hydraulics
• Comfy for driving, and easy to drive. Nothing too complicated or the auld lad won't use it
• Pulling power for trailer + 20 silage bales, 16/17t gravel

Now there is no make or brand leading the way, though he likes the JD (if it was my money I'd be gone for a Fendt, dunno why, I just like them!).

So hit me up with yer recommendations, or experiences with different makes/models.

Mooooo

Price around, new tractors can have big difference in prices. Seeing the price tag on a fendt won't be long knocking the idea out of a lot of lads heads, i guess jd, new Holland and Massey prob the best for residual but I wouldn't know much about it tbh

Reggie.

roosterman71 wrote: »

Right folks,
The auld lad proudly announced this morning that he's going to buy a brand new tractor :eek:
Be an upgrade on our now 23 year old (it is the newest one we have) JD. So lets all go fantasy tractor shopping.

Here's what it will be at:

• Mowing with 8' Malone (~200 acres/year)
• Raking for hay/silage
• Drawing bales of hay/silage (~1200 a year)
• Random trailer work around the place (gravel, timber, etc)
• Few other random bits

What it won't be doing is feeding cattle or anything like that. In fact, during the winter months it would be doing very little unless there was a few bales to move or some odd jobs around.

So the requirement list!

• Around 100HP. The JD is that but I suspect the newer yokes need a bit extra. Is 100hp 23 years ago the same as 100hp now in terms of pulling power, etc
• Not a big chunky bulky yoke. Essential it isn't very tall or it won't go into a few sheds!
• Loader with pretty quick and responsive hydraulics
• Comfy for driving, and easy to drive. Nothing too complicated or the auld lad won't use it
• Pulling power for trailer + 20 silage bales, 16/17t gravel

Now there is no make or brand leading the way, though he likes the JD (if it was my money I'd be gone for a Fendt, dunno why, I just like them!).

So hit me up with yer recommendations, or experiences with different makes/models.

All down to preference really. Problem you will have now is that most of the 100hp teachers now have ad blue in them.

Still might be a few landinis without it still in storage. Other than that you'll have to go buy a second hand MF 5610 for example maybe 2 years old to avoid it. That's if your not a fan if the adblue

Reggie.

Mooooo wrote: »

Price around, new tractors can have big difference in prices. Seeing the price tag on a fendt won't be long knocking the idea out of a lot of lads heads, i guess jd, new Holland and Massey prob the best for residual but I wouldn't know much about it tbh

Most of them makes jumped nearly 20k this year because of the adblue and Tier 4 regulations.

cute geoge

neighbour bought old model 6125m (i think) with loader and suspension came to €87k straight 3 years ago ,smashing tractor but i think jd changed models since 6125m nowadays would only be boosted to that hp and the price probably good bit dearer.I doubt it would be able for 20 heavy bales though

Grueller

I drove a kubota m135gx harrowing recently. Well specced, comfy and far better value for money than the competition. In or about €75k I think without loader. Won't get much MF, NH or JD at that money.

blue5000

Grueller wrote: »

I drove a kubota m135gx harrowing recently. Well specced, comfy and far better value for money than the competition. In or about €75k I think without loader. Won't get much MF, NH or JD at that money.

I came on here to suggest a Kubota, might be a good stick to beat the competition with, but the cabs are small. What dealers are near you Rooster and what is the budget?

Reggie.

Grueller wrote: »

I drove a kubota m135gx harrowing recently. Well specced, comfy and far better value for money than the competition. In or about €75k I think without loader. Won't get much MF, NH or JD at that money.

I think the landini 5-100H comes in around 65k or there abouts depending on spec with no loader.

GrasstoMilk

Reggie. wrote: »

All down to preference really. Problem you will have now is that most of the 100hp teachers now have ad blue in them.

Still might be a few landinis without it still in storage. Other than that you'll have to go buy a second hand MF 5610 for example maybe 2 years old to avoid it. That's if your not a fan if the adblue

I'd be happy enough with the ad blue tbh. Reckon we're using less diesel with it.

OP the 5610s are a nice tractor and are very tidy sized for what they can do. Get it on 38s though and wide enough tires too. The loader joystick is a super job

Reggie.

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I'd be happy enough with the ad blue tbh. Reckon we're using less diesel with it.

OP the 5610s are a nice tractor and are very tidy sized for what they can do. Get it on 38s though and wide enough tires too. The loader joystick is a super job

Don't know much about it tbh but some operators really hate it

Reggie.

Suppose the best advice would be for yourself and your father to head to grass and muck as most brands will be on display there. Get a feel of what ye would like

Grueller

blue5000 wrote: »

I came on here to suggest a Kubota, might be a good stick to beat the competition with, but the cabs are small. What dealers are near you Rooster and what is the budget?

Cabs on those MGX series are class leading for space.

bogman_bass

Well if it's fantasy shopping you're at go for a Unimog!

roosterman71

Mooooo wrote: »

Price around, new tractors can have big difference in prices. Seeing the price tag on a fendt won't be long knocking the idea out of a lot of lads heads, i guess jd, new Holland and Massey prob the best for residual but I wouldn't know much about it tbh

Yeah the Fendt price would be a real eye opener alright! A man can dream though

Reggie. wrote: »

All down to preference really. Problem you will have now is that most of the 100hp teachers now have ad blue in them.

Still might be a few landinis without it still in storage. Other than that you'll have to go buy a second hand MF 5610 for example maybe 2 years old to avoid it. That's if your not a fan if the adblue

To be honest, I know very little about Ad Blue. Tell me more if ya don't mind. What are the disadvantages to having it? I seen a Deutz 5-series brochure one day and it was on about having no additives needed in the engine. Not sure how old the brochure was though.

Grueller wrote: »

I drove a kubota m135gx harrowing recently. Well specced, comfy and far better value for money than the competition. In or about €75k I think without loader. Won't get much MF, NH or JD at that money.

That's true. Not too many Kubotas around here, and no idea if there's a dealer nearby either. But they do sound interesting. I'd like to get feedback from someone with one for a while to see how they fare.

blue5000 wrote: »

I came on here to suggest a Kubota, might be a good stick to beat the competition with, but the cabs are small. What dealers are near you Rooster and what is the budget?

Lets start with the budget. That's unknown yet! I suppose we'll travel around and see whats on offer and where and then see if it can be bought. It's not like it's being bought for a few years then moved on (unless it's junk). The current yoke is a 95 and still going. No reason this one wouldn't be around the same length. As for dealers, plenty around. There's a McCormick and Landini dealer a few miles away. NH aren't far, nor are JD, MF, Same or Deutz. All within 20 miles anyway. I think there's a Fendt dealer about 30 miles away, and there's a Claas lad near there too I think. So I'm surrounded by lads with metal to sell

Reggie. wrote: »

I think the landini 5-100H comes in around 65k or there abouts depending on spec with no loader.

Good to know. I'd definitely need a loader. I know ya have the Landini yerself and are doing similar kinda work to myself but on a bigger scale.

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I'd be happy enough with the ad blue tbh. Reckon we're using less diesel with it.

OP the 5610s are a nice tractor and are very tidy sized for what they can do. Get it on 38s though and wide enough tires too. The loader joystick is a super job

As above, tell me more about this magical Ad Blue. I'd definitely be getting wide tyres. Have them on the JD and they are a super job.

Reggie. wrote: »

Suppose the best advice would be for yourself and your father to head to grass and muck as most brands will be on display there. Get a feel of what ye would like

Well I didn't know there'd be tractor talk there. Thought it was more machine focused as opposed the power unit in front. If I can get a day off work I'll pop along anyway

Reggie.

All the tractors and salesmen will be there on the day.

leg wax

Mooooo wrote: »

Price around, new tractors can have big difference in prices. Seeing the price tag on a fendt won't be long knocking the idea out of a lot of lads heads, i guess jd, new Holland and Massey prob the best for residual but I wouldn't know much about it tbh

bought a 151 fendt 4 weeks ago , 20 years on my landini i was due a up grade.

Reggie.

leg wax wrote: »

bought a 151 fendt 4 weeks ago , 20 years on my landini i was due a up grade.

Def due one

Reggie.

As for the adblue it's more the system and sensors I think. Dpf have thier issues too but the adblue is supposed to be more problematic.

I think on some machines the sensor can give bother and is a job to change out. Also the exhausts on machines have to be changed out after say 5000 hrs??? And they can be big money for them as they are stainless steel

And if your unfortunate enough to lose the pump in the adblue tank it's a massive job to fix. These issues will be more for future second hand machines than new ones

jaymla627

Reggie. wrote: »

As for the adblue it's more the system and sensors I think. Dpf have thier issues too but the adblue is supposed to be more problematic.

I think on some machines the sensor can give bother and is a job to change out. Also the exhausts on machines have to be changed out after say 5000 hrs??? And they can be big money for them as they are stainless steel

And if your unfortunate enough to lose the pump in the adblue tank it's a massive job to fix. These issues will be more for future second hand machines than new ones

Theirs a chap up the north that can turn it off on basically every tractor out their, best option from day one

Reggie.

jaymla627 wrote: »

Theirs a chap up the north that can turn it off on basically every tractor out their, best option from day one

I wonder is it tho. I can see this tractor test coming compulsory in time and if they see that system messed with then there might be trouble

roosterman71

leg wax wrote: »

bought a 151 fendt 4 weeks ago , 20 years on my landini i was due a up grade.

Well wear. What kinda one ya get if ya don't mind me being nosey, and why did you choose it?

Reggie. wrote: »

As for the adblue it's more the system and sensors I think. Dpf have thier issues too but the adblue is supposed to be more problematic.

I think on some machines the sensor can give bother and is a job to change out. Also the exhausts on machines have to be changed out after say 5000 hrs??? And they can be big money for them as they are stainless steel

And if your unfortunate enough to lose the pump in the adblue tank it's a massive job to fix. These issues will be more for future second hand machines than new ones

Sound. I was thinking some environmental stuff would be the root to this particular evil. I'd be stung there too cos the tractor would be around the place long enough for them yokes to go wrong! I wonder can ya run them with it disabled? Do ya need to work them hard to avoid issues with the DPF in order to burn the waste from the system?

Reggie.

roosterman71 wrote: »

Well wear. What kinda one ya get if ya don't mind me being nosey, and why did you choose it?


Sound. I was thinking some environmental stuff would be the root to this particular evil. I'd be stung there too cos the tractor would be around the place long enough for them yokes to go wrong! I wonder can ya run them with it disabled? Do ya need to work them hard to avoid issues with the DPF in order to burn the waste from the system?

It all depends on how the DPF is setup. Some brands need the engine run up to a certain temp first but the dini will do it ticking over as it does it a different way to others

Cattlepen

Fendt are wonderful tractors, I have one, but they will never earn you back the difference in price with the more common makes. The others are all much of a muchness -with the exception of Massey. The size of tractor you are talking about is Massey’s forté. They just cannot be beaten in this sector. Neat, tidy,simple and well capable of many jobs. I would consider, if I was you, getting a low hours second hand one without adblue. Just a little simpler. Also, the sloppy bonnet is fantastic. Just so much nicer to drive all day than a big bonnet.

leg wax

312 with loader, front and cab suspension ,oh the comfort ,oh and a feckin heater,as other tractor had feck all

roosterman71

leg wax wrote: »

312 with loader, front and cab suspension ,oh the comfort ,oh and a feckin heater,as other tractor had feck all

Sweet! That is the setup I'd be thinking myself, though could probably live without the suspension :pac:

White Clover

As I was reading the OP, I was in fear that roosterman was going to say that the Leyland was getting the gate!

roosterman71

White Clover wrote: »

As I was reading the OP, I was in fear that roosterman was going to say that the Leyland was getting the gate!

If I could I would! That and many other yokes lying around the place

orchard farm

Valtra!

riemann

It's far from a science I know, but how much land would a man usually have that spends upwards of 50k on a new tractor?

Down our way its only contractors with new machines of that size

Grueller

riemann wrote: »

It's far from a science I know, but how much land would a man usually have that spends upwards of 50k on a new tractor?

Down our way its only contractors with new machines of that size

I am contemplating it at the moment.
Here is the thinking. I have high value off farm employment. This leaves me paying 40% tax.
I have a tractor worth €22k to trade in. €75k minus €22k is €53k cost to me. Over 5 years the payments are circa €11k per year. Now write off the 40% tax. It now costs me €6600 per year. At the end of the cycle I have a 5 year old tractor with 2000ish hours. I will get another 15 years at least from her.
BTW I farm 135 acres.

Edited to say I am contemplating it for 2019.

visatorro

Grueller wrote: »

I am contemplating it at the moment.
Here is the thinking. I have high value off farm employment. This leaves me paying 40% tax.
I have a tractor worth €22k to trade in. €75k minus €22k is €53k cost to me. Over 5 years the payments are circa €11k per year. Now write off the 40% tax. It now costs me €6600 per year. At the end of the cycle I have a 5 year old tractor with 2000ish hours. I will get another 15 years at least from her.
BTW I farm 135 acres.

Edited to say I am contemplating it for 2019.

135 acres and plenty of water

Reggie.

visatorro wrote: »

135 acres and plenty of water

For now anyways

Dunedin

Grueller wrote: »

I am contemplating it at the moment.
Here is the thinking. I have high value off farm employment. This leaves me paying 40% tax.
I have a tractor worth €22k to trade in. €75k minus €22k is €53k cost to me. Over 5 years the payments are circa €11k per year. Now write off the 40% tax. It now costs me €6600 per year. At the end of the cycle I have a 5 year old tractor with 2000ish hours. I will get another 15 years at least from her.
BTW I farm 135 acres.

Edited to say I am contemplating it for 2019.

Similar situation to yourself here. Paying 52% tax from off farm income. Bought new Case 105u in 2015. Got €25k on trade in and new tractor was €60k

Wiped out most if not all of tax bill and I have the comfort of a new one.

Reggie.

Dunedin wrote: »

Similar situation to yourself here. Paying 52% tax from off farm income. Bought new Case 105u in 2015. Got €25k on trade in and new tractor was €60k

Wiped out most if not all of tax bill and I have the comfort of a new one.

That's the way to do it

patsy_mccabe

If you wiped out most of your tax Bill, then your farm income is zero. You are basically working the farm for nothing. Would the money not be wiser spent on something else.

annubis

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

If you wiped out most of your tax Bill, then your farm income is zero. You are basically working the farm for nothing. Would the money not be wiser spent on something else.

more likely a profit before you take depreciation of tractor and sheds etc into account?

Timmaay

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

If you wiped out most of your tax Bill, then your farm income is zero. You are basically working the farm for nothing. Would the money not be wiser spent on something else.

Lump sum into the pension would be my preferred method to reduce my tax liability, and hiring more labour is my way of reducing the hardship of the farm, but each to their own.

jimmy G M

Perhaps one of the accounting guru's / lakhill etc can clarify but my understanding around the trade in part of buying a new tractor is as follows.

Say a new tractor costing €80k and trade in is worth €30k. Finance €50k over 5 years say repayments are €12k pa. (€10k principal and €2k interest)

Depreciation or w&t capital allowances of the cost price allowed over 8 years so €10k pa plus the 2k interest means 12k off taxable income saving you aprox €6k tax if at the high rate, however you still need to find the other €6k cash to meet the new loan repayments.

Problem is in year 1, you have traded in a tractor worth €30k. If you have had this tractor for 8 years then its fully depreciated or worthless on paper. So when you trade in and get €30k for it thus is a gain or income of €30k in year 1 and taxable at top rate presumably. So income up €18k (30-12) in year 1

I don't think you can net off the figure ie €50k over 8 years, mentioned it to an accoutant once and she said no way. How are fellas getting around this or are they .just paying the tax?

Grueller

My accountant told me that youwould just claim the allowances on the €50k. I must quiz him again though in light of what you just said.

jimmy G M

Grueller wrote: »

My accountant told me that youwould just claim the allowances on the €50k. I must quiz him again though in light of what you just said.

Would you mind posting his response up here as I'd like to know for my own purposes. Thx.

wrangler

Grueller wrote: »

My accountant told me that you would just claim the allowances on the €50k. I must quiz him again though in light of what you just said.

I bought a tractor two years ago, trade in worth 25000, , it didn't cause any problem so it must be the same as you. Tax relief on just what i paid him.

Mtx

What is wrong with the trusty TM?

roosterman71

Thanks for all the info so far folks. Few recommendations in there. Anyone care to share their experiences with any of these yokes?

Dunedin

roosterman71 wrote: »

Thanks for all the info so far folks. Few recommendations in there. Anyone care to share their experiences with any of these yokes?

Very happy with the case. 105hp so does anything I need it to do and still tidy in the yard. Good spacious cab too.

Buford T. Justice XIX

roosterman71 wrote: »

Thanks for all the info so far folks. Few recommendations in there. Anyone care to share their experiences with any of these yokes?

I've a JD100R with an H240 loader. Does exactly what it says on the tin. Enough power for me and a nice tight turning radius. Get the external lift controls for the lift arms and PTO, very handy for hooking up and spreading slurry. Plenty of space in the cab for me but can be a bit tight with an adult in the passenger seat. Also get the extendable hitch, I didn't spec it and am sorry now.

One downside for me is the sluggish response to the shuttle, I have the speed control up to max but it's still too slow, imo. Saying that, it may be normal for all tractors with shuttle but she's due a service this coming week so I'll be bringing that up with the mechanic. Half sorry I didn't go for the H260 as the extra reach would have allowed easier stacking of 4x4 round bales of straw 4 high but it's a minor enough problem atm.

Dunedin

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I've a JD100R with an H240 loader. Does exactly what it says on the tin. Enough power for me and a nice tight turning radius. Get the external lift controls for the lift arms and PTO, very handy for hooking up and spreading slurry. Plenty of space in the cab for me but can be a bit tight with an adult in the passenger seat. Also get the extendable hitch, I didn't spec it and am sorry now.

One downside for me is the sluggish response to the shuttle, I have the speed control up to max but it's still too slow, imo. Saying that, it may be normal for all tractors with shuttle but she's due a service this coming week so I'll be bringing that up with the mechanic. Half sorry I didn't go for the H260 as the extra reach would have allowed easier stacking of 4x4 round bales of straw 4 high but it's a minor enough problem atm.

+1 on the push out hitch. I would have thought the external lift and pto controls were standard on all new ones???

I’d also strongly recommend air con. It means that no matter how hot the weather is, you can stay going, very important when at silage or hay in the summer. A neighbor of mine with a similar tractor has to park up for a few hours as he can’t stick the heat in the cab at peak times

roosterman71

roosterman71 wrote: »

Sweet! That is the setup I'd be thinking myself, though could probably live without the suspension :pac:

Once you drive a tractor with suspension you couldn't go back, totally different animal altogether.

lakill Farm

Grueller wrote: »

My accountant told me that youwould just claim the allowances on the €50k. I must quiz him again though in light of what you just said.

That's incorrect approach

lakill Farm

OK depreciation is not a factor at all.

Capital allowances is the factor and its currently at 8 years or 12.5% PA

So new tractor of 80k the capital allowance is 10k per annum and it is favourable now because you can claim Capital allowance in excess of farm profit against some off farm incomes such as PAYE.

the 2k interest goes towards Profit and loss as an interest

Now if your 30k trade in tractor has 30k capital allowance claimed you are caught for a 30k balancing charge at tax rates

Sometimes the dealers will ask what the carrying value/ book value and they adjust the prices to suit but you still pay the same difference to trade up

jimmy G M wrote: »

Perhaps one of the accounting guru's / lakhill etc can clarify but my understanding around the trade in part of buying a new tractor is as follows.

Say a new tractor costing €80k and trade in is worth €30k. Finance €50k over 5 years say repayments are €12k pa. (€10k principal and €2k interest)

Depreciation or w&t capital allowances of the cost price allowed over 8 years so €10k pa plus the 2k interest means 12k off taxable income saving you aprox €6k tax if at the high rate, however you still need to find the other €6k cash to meet the new loan repayments.

Problem is in year 1, you have traded in a tractor worth €30k. If you have had this tractor for 8 years then its fully depreciated or worthless on paper. So when you trade in and get €30k for it thus is a gain or income of €30k in year 1 and taxable at top rate presumably. So income up €18k (30-12) in year 1

I don't think you can net off the figure ie €50k over 8 years, mentioned it to an accoutant once and she said no way. How are fellas getting around this or are they .just paying the tax?

jimmy G M

lakill Farm wrote: »

OK depreciation is not a factor at all.

Capital allowances is the factor and its currently at 8 years or 12.5% PA

So new tractor of 80k the capital allowance is 10k per annum and it is favourable now because you can claim Capital allowance in excess of farm profit against some off farm incomes such as PAYE.

the 2k interest goes towards Profit and loss as an interest

Now if your 30k trade in tractor has 30k capital allowance claimed you are caught for a 30k balancing charge at tax rates

Sometimes the dealers will ask what the carrying value/ book value and they adjust the prices to suit but you still pay the same difference to trade up

Ok, so the trade in allowance over the book value of the machine is taxable as a balancing charge / income in year 1. Thx for that.

If someone was to finance the same scenario via lease rather than HP or loan, ie trade in worth €30k, €50k lease over 5 years, can the full €30k trade in be taken as a lease payment in year 1?.

I know that lease presents a problem down the line when finance term is up, but this can be reduced / eliminated by use of secondary leasing period?

HughCassidy

orchard farm wrote: »

Valtra!

Bought a Valtra last March twelve months find them steady I have a thousand hours done on it silage wrapping, tillage work, general contract work. A good sales man in kellys made me change over.