queuing at lights

site_owner

i'm not mad on queuing at lights, I'm usually up in the ASL box taking the lane until the group spreads out, which it always does seeing as you have such a mix of speeds. i'm pretty fast off the lights so i'm comfortable up there, on occasion another fast commuter or ebike will be quicker but we figure that out instantly and merge as appropriate.

i saw this on twitter this morning and, while i get that not everyone wants to be in the ASL box, or feels safe taking off in a bunch so some will hang back, and sometimes there is no room and safety takes precedent, this just seems bananas to me. half of this queue wont make it through the lights. some would be better off dismounting and walking.

anyway, thats my opinion, what does everyone else think?

https://twitter.com/nickkeeganirl/status/991360574712893440


image for those without twitter
https://i.imgur.com/Y1X3vQh.jpg

Chips Lovell

How short do you think the light sequence is? Everyone in that photo is going to make it through.

Ray Bloody Purchase

What's the rush? If you don't make it through, wait until they go green again.

buffalo

What ASL box?

ted1

Yep queues like that do my head in and are dangerous as no doubt some one will have a truck or bus pull up along side of them.

Those at the front need to move right and place themselves in front of the lead vehicle ( most lights nowadays have advanced bike boxes ) that’ll allow several cyclists to get out in front and pulls the other drivers up and reduces the likelihood of having a HGV pull up alongside

Chips Lovell

Don't agree that queuing on the left is the best idea though. Pull up in the lane behind the last car in the queue instead. Only move up if you're likely to make progress, i.e. if you're not likely to make it through the lights on the next sequence.

Macy0161

buffalo wrote: »

What ASL box?

Advanced Stop Line. Routinely, and often deliberately, ignored by motorists.

ConnyMcDavid

Can imagine a few seconds later the slowest cyclist with a big heavy city bike with basket comes plodding along and pulls in in front of the queue.

site_owner

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

How short do you think the light sequence is? Everyone in that photo is going to make it through.

including the 10 behind? and what happens when vehicles start turning left?

site_owner

Ray Bloody Purchase wrote: »

What's the rush? If you don't make it through, wait until they go green again.

safety for one, if cars start turning left.
progress is another, if bike in front turns out to be going 10-15km then i would rather not have to overtake in traffic.

site_owner

buffalo wrote: »

What ASL box?

its not in red there, but the section ahead of the cars

Nothing pisses me off more than having the same slow, fat fecker on a banger squeezing in front of you at the lights, only to hamper your progress as it's unsafe to pass him until there's a break in traffic. This means that when you do finally make it past him, you're caught at the next lights and the whole sequence repeats itself.

:mad:

site_owner

ConnyMcDavid wrote: »

Can imagine a few seconds later the slowest cyclist with a big heavy city bike with basket comes plodding along and pulls in in front of the queue.

well thats another concern, if i do queue like this, and the bike at the front is not paying attention or does take off at sub 15km then there is a real danger of risky overtaking in tarffic with 17 bikes accelrating off

Chips Lovell

site_owner wrote: »

including the 10 behind? and what happens when vehicles start turning left?

You never said there was ten people behind. And if people queued in the lane rather than on the left, they wouldn't risk being hit by a left turning vehicle.

site_owner

site_owner wrote: »

including the 10 behind? and what happens when vehicles start turning left?

There's no way in hell any car should attempt a left turn with such a long line of cyclists there. They'd only attempt it if there was a big gap between cyclists, which shouldn't really occur, but if it did then there's only room for one car to make it through anyway.

site_owner

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

You never said there was ten people behind. And if people queued in the lane rather than on the left, they wouldn't risk being hit by a left turning vehicle.

7 People in front,
And about 10 People behind me -

thats what the tweet says. so thats 18 bikes in total. all to the left of traffic.

site_owner

Deleted User wrote: »

There's no way in hell any car should attempt a left turn with such a long line of cyclists there. They'd only attempt it if there was a big gap between cyclists, which shouldn't really occur, but if it did then there's only room for one car to make it through anyway.

do you cycle in dublin city? i reckon a car will try to nose through a group like that more times than not. i certanly dont want to be the one to find out. just take a look in the near miss thread for left hooks

seamus

In this instance where they're all clearly in a cycle lane, I see no inherent issue in queuing rather than bunching at the front or joining the traffic queue.

My experience of queues like this is that people are far less likely to shoal if there's a big queue. Which can only be a good thing.

Be interested to know what that lead car did though. He's indicating left and has shifted a bit left. Did he wait like he's supposed to, or did he push in and force the bikes to let him through?

site_owner

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing pisses me off more than having the same slow, fat fecker on a banger squeezing in front of you at the lights, only to hamper your progress as it's unsafe to pass him until there's a break in traffic. This means that when you do finally make it past him, you're caught at the next lights and the whole sequence repeats itself.

:mad:

i hope you arent implying i'm slow :eek:

buffalo

Macy0161 wrote: »

Advanced Stop Line. Routinely, and often deliberately, ignored by motorists.

site_owner wrote: »

its not in red there, but the section ahead of the cars

There's no ASL box at that junction. If you go ahead of the cars, you're breaking the light. As the Baron says, if you don't feel safe in the queue, take the lane instead.

I'd be happy enough in that queue myself, I'm not sure what the problem is. If a car is indicating left, wait behind. If they don't indicate and they turn left, apply brakes and castigate if possible. If a truck pulls up alongside, let them go on ahead out of your way.

buffalo

I think this line of cyclists might be the 'protective ring' which apparently enhances all of our safety, mentioned at https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106874294#post106874294

loyatemu

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing pisses me off more than having the same slow, fat fecker on a banger squeezing in front of you at the lights, only to hamper your progress as it's unsafe to pass him until there's a break in traffic. This means that when you do finally make it past him, you're caught at the next lights and the whole sequence repeats itself.

:mad:

or worse, they go through the red light and you catch up to them after the junction. Repeat x 10.

What's the rush? If you don't make it through, wait until they go green again.

you might as well be in a car then.

site_owner

site_owner wrote: »

do you cycle in dublin city? i reckon a car will try to nose through a group like that more times than not. i certanly dont want to be the one to find out. just take a look in the near miss thread for left hooks

All the time. They will only attempt it if they are given enough of glimpse of a gap. Edge's corner in Fairview, coming out of town, is a prime example. When the lights are red, and there is no room* at the ASL to 'shoal', cyclists should be stopping short of the left hand turn. When they are green, they will only chance a turn if the nearest cyclist is unsteady, nervous, or not making enough progress.

*There is always room at this set of lights, really, but it can get quite congested when there are plenty of busses around and people are a bit nervous. It is better to be in front of the bus rather than alongside it, but peple find that a bit counterintuitive. This spot is also a prime location for those fat feckers sneaking in front of the big queue of cycling traffic via the island.

ted1

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

site_owner wrote: »

including the 10 behind? and what happens when vehicles start turning left?

You never said there was ten people behind. And if people queued in the lane rather than on the left, they wouldn't risk being hit by a left turning vehicle.

It says that there’s another 10 behind in the links posted

site_owner

Deleted User wrote: »

All the time. They will only attempt it if they are given enough of glimpse of a gap. Edge's corner in Fairview, coming out of town, is a prime example. When the lights are red, and there is no room* at the ASL to 'shoal', cyclists should be stopping short of the left hand turn. When they are green, they will only chance a turn if the nearest cyclist is unsteady, nervous, or not making enough progress.

*There is always room at this set of lights, really, but it can get quite congested when there are plenty of busses around and people are a bit nervous. It is better to be in front of the bus rather than alongside it, but peple find that a bit counterintuitive. This spot is also a prime location for those fat feckers sneaking in front of the big queue of cycling traffic via the island.

i cycle that route regualrly, and there is no way i would position myself anywhere other than out at the front of that line. where it says lana busa. i know its technically light jumping, but small that right curve is a killer of a pinch point and then you need to take the lane to get past the parked cars along the left. taxi man like to buzz past all the way to the coast if you give them an inch.

even when moving at 35-40km i would get cars trying to make that turn

most of the slower cyclists around there will stay on the path / crappy cycle lane thing on the park side, but i do get caught behind the occasional one. the narrowness of the bus lane means it fucntions as a wide cycle lane if I take it properly. overall its not a nice strech of cycling

Lambay island

site_owner wrote: »

i cycle that route regualrly, and there is no way i would position myself anywhere other than out at the front of that line. where it says lana busa. i know its technically light jumping, but small that right curve is a killer of a pinch point and then you need to take the lane to get past the parked cars along the left. taxi man like to buzz past all the way to the coast if you give them an inch.

even when moving at 35-40km i would get cars trying to make that turn

most of the fat feckers around there will stay on the path / crappy cycle lane thing on the park side, but i do get caught behind the occasional one. the narrowness of the bus lane means it fucntions as a wide cycle lane if I take it properly. overall its not a nice strech of cycling

Harsh, At least are doing something about it and commuting by bike rather than clogging up things more in a car

site_owner

site_owner wrote: »

i cycle that route regualrly, and there is no way i would position myself anywhere other than out at the front of that line. where it says lana busa. i know its technically light jumping

I agree, if you are late getting to the lights for some reason though, there's not always room to get up front. Particularly if there are a couple of busses idling there.

site_owner wrote: »

even when moving at 35-40km i would get cars trying to make that turn.........the narrowness of the bus lane means it fucntions as a wide cycle lane if I take it properly. overall its not a nice strech of cycling

I definitely agree, you need your wits about you at that spot. Between the cars parked on the left outside the shops who open doors, people taking that first left after the lights and cutting across three lanes, double parking with the hazards on up beside the Tesco and ignorant pricks trying to squeeze out and turn right from the cul de sac just before the footbridge....its a wonder there aren't more serious accidents there daily.

Diemos

I hate shoalers, they are completely selfish, if you were in a car, bus, christ, using a shopping trolley, you would never push past people who are already queuing, why would you think it is ok to do it on a bike?

As for the arguement of I'm fast.....that's grand but it normalises it, and slow ****ers copy your actions.

It's kind of difficult to ask other road users to be more conscientious to cyclists when we seem unable to be conscientious to each other.

Diemos

site_owner wrote: »

do you cycle in dublin city? i reckon a car will try to nose through a group like that more times than not. i certanly dont want to be the one to find out. just take a look in the near miss thread for left hooks

I cycle through town on my commute and from a red light most cars are actually observent, especially if there is a queue of bikes on their left, but there are always morons.

But as a cyclist you always have to assume that drivers are morons, just because you are in the right does not mean that you won't get hurt. be ready to stop and watch what other road users are up to, just like you would in any other vehicle.

site_owner

Lambay island wrote: »

Harsh, At least are doing something about it and commuting by bike rather than clogging up things more in a car

fair point and edited. in my defense i was using the term the other guy was using, but its inappropriate and no excuse.

Macy0161

Diemos wrote: »

I hate shoalers, they are completely selfish, if you were in a car, bus, christ, using a shopping trolley, you would never push past people who are already queuing, why would you think it is ok to do it on a bike?

It's obviously a while since you've commuted by car in the city - it's routine for some to push in to right turn lanes at the head of the queue, and isn't that what all the bus lane cars are essentially doing?

Diemos

Macy0161 wrote: »

It's obviously a while since you've commuted by car in the city - it's routine for some to push in to right turn lanes at the head of the queue, and isn't that what all the bus lane cars are essentially doing?

Care to make any other sweeping (and wildly inaccurate) observations? :rolleyes:

Yes, there are ignorant motorist, but just because they are ignorant does not give anyone on a bike the right to be ignorant.

Macy0161

Diemos wrote: »

Care to make any other sweeping (and wildly inaccurate) observations? :rolleyes:

Yes, there are ignorant motorist, but just because they are ignorant does not give anyone on a bike the right to be ignorant.

No, but we don't need another road issue demonised as only a cycling issue, in the same way red light jumping or bicycles on the pavement are.

Most bad behaviours aren't tied to particular modes of transport, they're tied to people.

ted1

Diemos wrote: »

Macy0161 wrote: »

It's obviously a while since you've commuted by car in the city - it's routine for some to push in to right turn lanes at the head of the queue, and isn't that what all the bus lane cars are essentially doing?

Care to make any other sweeping (and wildly inaccurate) observations? :rolleyes:

Yes, there are ignorant motorist, but just because they are ignorant does not give anyone on a bike the right to be ignorant.

Are you calling cyclists who move ahead of slower cyclists ignorant ?

tomasrojo

Mark Treasure wrote something about cyclists queuing a while ago.

I don't always agree with him (frequently don't, but mostly about emphasis on risk), but for what it's worth:

The most efficient behaviour while waiting at lights is, actually, to double up, even if this appears to involve ‘queue jumping’. It’s standard practice that you will see at any Dutch junction with separate cycling infrastructure.

https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2016/10/12/doubling-up/

I assume this applies to cycling infrastructure that can accommodate two lines.

Diemos

ted1 wrote: »

Are you calling cyclists who move ahead of slower cyclists ignorant ?

No, in fact, I myself have overtaken a few slow cyclists in my time when it was safe to do so.

Ray Bloody Purchase

What is the etiquette with undertaking? It always gets on my tits. Particularly if i'm turning right and someone shoots up on my inside. It means that they're pushing me out into the centre.

Moflojo

I just want to point out how amazing it is that we're now having discussions about people on bikes queuing at junctions.

10 years ago it would have been rare enough, even on sunny days, to meet more than 2 or 3 other cyclists at a junction on your commute. Now it's common to see 20+ at every junction, in all weather, on the major commuter routes.

bikedude

Wait in the queue behind the last person, if you are faster then everyone you will overtake then soon enough.

If is a bottle neck, position yourself in the middle of the lane at the correct time and help the people that are not as savvy as you to be safer/ learn how to do it.

Don’t be that person that goes to the front because you assume you are faster than everyone that is waiting in line.

Wishbone Ash

Is it just me or does anyone else think the image in the opening post looks very staged - all cyclists in a neat line, all have left foot down, all wearing helmets and hi viz, cars in a neat line leaving the cycle track free. It's certainly not what I usually experience at busy junctions.

ted1

Now that you say it. I’m definitely a right foot down guy. It would be unusual to have so many lefties

brianomc

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else think the image in the opening post looks very staged - all cyclists in a neat line, all have left foot down, all wearing helmets and hi viz, cars in a neat line leaving the cycle track free. It's certainly not what I usually experience at busy junctions.

I know what you mean but I swear I saw around 20 all lined up at Wexford Street today, from the lights back to Bunsen. No shoaling, nobody up on the footpath, shocking(ly good) behaviour.

And a car did need to turn left.....it waited patiently for the last cyclist to pass, and nobody beeped at them either. This gets less believable the more I write. But I swear it happened.

Mix of bikes too, lycra-wearing roadies, hybrids, bso-s, even dublin bikes ffs, dublin bikes queueing :eek::D

tomasrojo

Moflojo wrote: »

I just want to point out how amazing it is that we're now having discussions about people on bikes queuing at junctions.

10 years ago it would have been rare enough, even on sunny days, to meet more than 2 or 3 other cyclists at a junction on your commute. Now it's common to see 20+ at every junction, in all weather, on the major commuter routes.

This must be suppressed.

threetrees

ted1 wrote: »

Now that you say it. I’m definitely a right foot down guy. It would be unusual to have so many lefties

Left foot down on the path though, more likely using the path height/step.

Arcade_Tryer

seamus wrote: »

My experience of queues like this is that people are far less likely to shoal if there's a big queue. Which can only be a good thing.

Sometimes shoaling is the safest option. Case in point this morning. Pulling out at Gardiner Street to circle around to the quays and there was a queue of cyclists stretched along the white line separating the lanes going towards the quays and back around by Connolly respectively. For a cyclist to join that queue from Gardiner Street would have meant cycling the wrong way down a potentially moving lane with oncoming traffic. Or else remaining stationery in said lane. Absurd. Shoaling saved a potentially serious situation from transpiring.

Kaisr Sose

Ray Bloody Purchase wrote: »

What is the etiquette with undertaking? It always gets on my tits. Particularly if i'm turning right and someone shoots up on my inside. It means that they're pushing me out into the centre.

I was reading through the thread thinking undertaking is the elephant in the room. It’s dangerous and it pissws me off. Even more when they pass a red light in the process!

Vel

So am I wrong if I was one of the bikes further back and a car ahead is waiting to turn left, that I would either hang back and allow them to turn or pull out and go around them on the right?

Diemos

Vel wrote: »

So am I wrong if I was one of the bikes further back and a car ahead is waiting to turn left, that I would either hang back and allow them to turn or pull out and go around them on the right?

If I'm in a queue where I am level with or behind said car, which is indicating, I generally watch the car and let the car dictate. most cars will wait, some push through.
Just because I have right of way does not mean I can't get hurt, if it's a truck or a bus, I just stay well behind it.

axer

Vel wrote: »

So am I wrong if I was one of the bikes further back and a car ahead is waiting to turn left, that I would either hang back and allow them to turn or pull out and go around them on the right?

By law you must not undertake (overtake on the left) any vehicle that is likely to start turning before you can fully undertake it. So yes, you wait until they have completed their turn or overtake on the right. A bike track as in the OP does not change this law as it is not a traffic lane.

ted1

axer wrote: »

By law you must not undertake (overtake on the left) any vehicle that is likely to start turning before you can fully undertake it. So yes, you wait until they have completed their turn or overtake on the right. A bike track as in the OP does not change this law as it is not a traffic lane.

cyclists are permitted to undertake (on left) a stationary row of motor vehicles: [S.I. No. 332/2012 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012]

(b) “A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

(ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

(iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”

axer

ted1 wrote: »

cyclists are permitted to undertake (on left) a stationary row of motor vehicles: [S.I. No. 332/2012 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012]

(b) “A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

(ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

(iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”

Yes, exactly