rossie1977 wrote: » I said it many times here in the past but the teams that manage to keep the majority of their best players year in year out are usually the most successful. For a small county the level of turnover in Roscommon over the past 10-15 years is astonishing. In 2010 Roscommon won the Connacht title and only one player (McDermott) who either started or came on as sub that day played any part in the Connacht final success of last year. What is more glaring is the age profile of that 2010 team which was dominated by Roscommons 2006 winning minors; Domican was 21, Ormsby was 22, Keenan was 21, O'Gara was 22, Cregg was 23, Shine was 21 (all those started), Higgins was 21, Colm Garvey was 21, Paul Garvey was 20. Carty another of the 2006 winning minors, 21 at the time and cathal shine 18 were on the squad that day and would play important roles on the senior team over the next five years were no longer on the squad by 2017 due to varying reasons. Compare that to Mayo. Of the team that lost to Longford in 2010 qualifiers David Clarke, Chris Barrett, Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins, Donal Vaughan, Kevin McLoughlin, Seamus O’Shea, Andy Moran, Aidan O’Shea, Alan Freeman, Barry Moran, Alan Dillon all started and Tom Parsons came on as sub..all would play major roles in getting Mayo to All-Ireland finals between 2012-17. We haven't lost as many key players this year it must be said. Only really Cian Connolly of last year's main squad didn't play in the league this year and we lost Sean Mullooly half way through, both are travelling/working in the states this summer. Ronan Stack was injured all year and the 3-4 Glaveys lad were preparing for the intermediate all Ireland final. The others like Brian Murtagh, Tom Featherstone, Colin Compton probably wouldn't have got much game time anyway given Peter Domican, Niall/Conor/Ronan Daly and Cathal Cregg returned to the panel this year.
nice_guy80 wrote: No employment in Roscommon Mayo has that option
Sonny678 wrote: » Donegal and Monaghan have low turnover of players, Monaghan and particularly Donegal have issues with lack of employment, yet they have some of the lowest numbers of player leaving panels in the country. Its complicated but sucessful teams hold on to their players better.
PARlance wrote: » Don't think it's too complicated tbh. As you say, successful teans hold onto their players better. That makes a lot of sense. As for Roscommon, I don't know what's up with them but it's a bit of a shambles. It's not as if they've been lacking underage talent over the last while, getting them in a County jersey seems a much harder task than it should be or is elsewhere.
Sonny678 wrote: » What about strong traditional sucessful counties like the below ?, many of them have as much underage sucess as Roscommon Derry 19 players Cork 18 players ( Cork have loads of underage talent) Offaly 16 players Meath 16 players Down 12 players Galway 11 players ( Galway have loads of underage talent) Cavan 10 players ( Cavan have loads of underage talent) kildare 9 players (Kildare have loads of underage talent)
Stoner wrote: » Do you have details of 2016 vs 2017 for all league and championship games.
PARlance wrote: » Re Roscommon, as Rossie1977 has been saying, this high turnover has been happening for the last 10-15 years. It's very noticeable and worse than any other County I would imagine. Rossie1977 might have some reasons for it, as an oitsider I would say it probably comes down to a combination of 3 main things... Players attitude / mentality, Managerial appointments, County Board.
PARlance wrote: » You're looking at stats from 1 year in isolation which isn't a great place to be looking from. You really need to look at historic churn over the past 20 years or so to see the trends. It does look very high but there are plenty of reasons go to explain it imo: 1. Way more demands on players reduces the years some will / can put it. 2. Much bigger squads, the turnover probably comes from peripheral players I would assume. Mayo have used about 50 players since Sept iirc. 3. Extended season, lesser County players have little to play for in qualifers. In days gone by, they could have headed off and enjoyed the summer and come back refreshed for next years Championship match. A pointless slog for some. In yesteryear, they may have given the County 10 or so years (with all Summer off) but now they're not getting that Summer off and hard to stay around for as long. Re Roscommon, as Rossie1977 has been saying, this high turnover has been happening for the last 10-15 years. It's very noticeable and worse than any other County I would imagine. Rossie1977 might have some reasons for it, as an oitsider I would say it probably comes down to a combination of 3 main things... Players attitude / mentality, Managerial appointments, County Board.
Sonny678 wrote: No I dont have all the exact details of 2016 v 2017, but the numbers this year is very similar to the percentage fall off from year to year in the last few years in the inter county game.
Sonny678 wrote: » The number of players which left this year runs a very close line to the percentage fall off from year to year in this decade in the inter county game. There is definatly a trend occuring, is it a player drain? Well compared to 20 years ago, 19 players didnt leave a Derry panel over a year or 12 players leave a Down panel or 18 players didnt leave a Cork football panel 20 years ago. And I know for a fact that 16 players didnt leave a Meath panel over a year, 20 or 10 years ago. The breakdown in terms of players leaving each division is Division 1 66 players Division 2 103 players Divsion 3 107 players Division 4 94 players Division 2 and 3 are the divisions with the biggest drop off of players.
PARlance wrote: » You're looking at stats from 1 year in isolation which isn't a great place to be looking from. You really need to look at historic churn over the past 20 years or so to see the trends. It does look very high but there are plenty of reasons go to explain it imo: 1. Way more demands on players reduces the years some will / can put it. 2. Much bigger squads, the turnover probably comes from peripheral players I would assume. Mayo have used about 50 players since Sept .
PARlance wrote: » I guess I'm just not as surprised or alarmed by this change as you are, everthing has changed dramatically in 20 years. We've established that successful Counties have relatively low churn. That makes sense it it was probably always the case. So if we look at unsuccessful Counties, what has changed in 20 years? In short, an awful lot more commitment is required for longer periods but with the same return as 20 years ago, i.e nothing really in terms of success. To use a simplistic example: Player A played for Leitrim in 1997, he played a bit of College football for the craic, he wouldn't have been doing anywhere near the amount of County training for the League and he probably put in 6 hard weeks before losing his one and only Championship game in May. Straight on the plane to Boston. Sipping pints regularly metric: 10/12 months a year (if not 11.5) Player A20 played for Leitrim in 2017, was training hard since September in a very professional College set up. Added to that, he would have had a lot of County commitments with hard training for the League. Straight into Championship training after and living clean until finally being dumped out of the Championship in mid-July against Carlow... Sipping pints metric: He doesn't drink, he allows himself a few packs of Tatyo every August. Both end up with nothing (but pride). It's not that hard to see why player A might stick with it for longer.
PARlance wrote: » Considering the Championship hasn't started yet... It's a little soon to be stating players didn't return. At a minimum, like with like should be compared and look at the figures when Championship has been played. The numbers will change for sure. The "did not return" is a little alarmist too. Players get dropped. Players retire. And yes, I imagine that most of the churn (outside of retirements) happens on the periphery... i.e lads who might get some League time but aren't or won't ever be cut out for Championship. They are replaced (rather than them "not returning") by others who are given a chance the next year. I haven't heard of too many Managers saying they can't fill a squad (McStay has made comments about Roscommon but that is unique imo as mentioned previously) but you just seem set on throwing out poorly constructed stats in a "the sky is falling down" manner. The best measure would be to compare it on a Championship only basis imo. Have you any insight into it yourself that you will share? Or is the sky just falling down?
megadodge wrote: » At last, a common sense post on a complete non-event. Lies, damn lies and statistics. In extended panels, early in the year players are tried out in the league who will never be next to close to making the championship team. It has always happened, but with bigger panels now more are tried, hence more not required come crunch time. It's simple maths. Roscommon are being quoted left, right and centre here, but from their championship run last year, off the top of my head only Cian Connolly and Sean Mulloolly are not on this year's panel. Mulloolly will almost certainly be back. The figure of 12 is completely misleading. The three Dalys and Cathal Cregg actually returned to the panel this year, all very good players three of whom will almost certainly be involved in the championship, but of course four fringe players had to make way for their return. Mountain. Molehill.
Glenbhoy wrote: » Derry lost approximately the same number from their 2016 panel as they did in 2017, so that's approx 18/19 players each year. There may be a few from 2016 back this year, but not substantial afaik. We have been pretty strong again in recent years at club and underage (minors have fallen to kerry last 3 years in a row), and the numbers do help explain why we've dropped successively from d1 to d4ðŸ˜. I know a few who have left the squad, for them it was a case of 12/13 years on the go, little to show for it but an nfl medal and a string of qualifier wins, huge commitment but little appreciation from our own hypercritical fans. There's no obvious solution, imo it'll only be when the team start achieving some success again that players will be willing to put in the effort required. It also takes resources from county board level to make players feel wanted, that's not always been forthcoming and penny pinching has always been a feature, and one which compares badly with neighbouring counties (albeit they've successful funding vehicles in place).
Sonny678 wrote: » That is a serious drop off 18 or 19 players each year. It explains Derrys decline. A great football county with great football people. Hopefully Doire will rise again. But I see the same drop off numbers in my own county I would say approx 12 or 13 two or three seasons ago, and now 16 this year. Cork are the same, look at Offaly also have had massive numbers leaving and so have Wexford. Outside Dublin every team in leinster is seen players leaving in high numbers.
Glenbhoy wrote: » The drop off in Leinster counties is perhaps understandable given the futility of playing dublin. There's no obvious solution unfortunately (well there is one way of making Leinster competitive, but I don't want to open that can of worms here). In fact, one of the derry players who retired told me he never really recovered from the 2014 league final defeat by dublin. One other point, I was involved at a decent level with colleges and clubs during the 90's and whilst there's more technology and probably better training techniques, . Granted, your inter county season ended with your first cship defeat, but that aside, the league went from oct to April with a break in the middle, so im not sure the effort required was significantly different way back then. I do think that players now (rightly) realise there's more to life and whilst your sport can be hugely rewarding, you are only young once and have to take the opportunities to travel etc when you get the chance.
Stoner wrote: I was more interested in any comparison across both competitions.
Stoner wrote: I'd imagine with 33 teams that most would have say 2 or 3 players that have yet to play this year but will by the end of the season. Or am I miles out
