8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Calina

RobertKK wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

Cop out, Robert. Your principles are not principles but a desire to be protected from the sight of things. So long as you can't see it, that is fine by you. Regardless of the hardship it imposes on others. People who have to deal with reality, a reality you hide from by saying Let them get planes.

You say "So long as you can't see it, that is fine by you" isn't that what some accuse pro-choice of being? They can't see the unborn so it is ok to abort.

I gave my reasons.
Do you think censorship of abortion information would work?
Do you think it is practicable to stop pregnant women from travelling?
I don't to both so it is not a cop out, maybe you see different?

No but unlike you I am in favour of repealing the 8th amendment.

In 1983, abortion was illegal in the country under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act. This technically stayed on the books until a couple of years ago courtesy of the Protection of life in pregnancy legislation. What made abortion legal in Ireland was the 8th amendment simply because of the reference to the right to life of the mother. This was the basis of the X case. As a result whatever else you want to say about the 8th the truth is that it made abortion legal at a time when it was actually illegal based on an Act of parliament.

Anyone who needs to procure a termination is fully aware of the unborn. You aren't. You will never be. You cannot put yourself in their position. You cannot have the awareness that they have. You never will have the awareness they have.

I don't want to force women to travel. I would prefer they could go to their local doctors or hospital depending on their case and needs. We are not talking about whether it is practical to stop them traveling, but whether we can take away the necessity to travel by widening the ability to deal with their issues locally.

You think you don't want to stop them traveling. But you do want to compel them so you can feel good.

Moiratat

RobertKK wrote: »

Why bother discussing with people in this thread.
If one says anything however tiny that could be construed as being critical it would be jumped upon so I don't ask as I don't want to upset by asking personal questions about abortion, especially when it is well known how I will vote, and I know it would make it easier for something to be taken up the wrong way.

Have you tried to see things from another perspective? If you were me, what would you have done?

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

So you are saying you are not healthy.

The constitution could be changed without it going all unrestricted, I can't vote Yes when I know what is being proposed, I can't vote Yes as I will feel guilt as I would feel complicit in allowing unrestricted abortion which is something I wholesomely disagree with.

But our constitution allows for unrestricted abortion, women are constitutionally protected in their right to travel to avail of abortion.
So the constitution itself is hypocritical.
It's not the same as doing something that's legal overseas but illegal here. It's a right in the constitution to do it, that doesn't happen with other laws.

So, why do you feel it's OK for Irish women to have abortions overseas & not in their own country?

& I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning

RobertKK

January wrote: »

But we have a constitutional law that allows for women to travel for abortions... So you're not stopping abortions, you're just making them unsafe.

I don't want you to judge me, believe me. I want you to see that most women have abortions for valid reasons such as they can't afford a child (or another child), they feel they can't raise a child (or another child). We're desperate women. We are not bad women.

Should alcohol be banned because of unsafe use?
No one is forced to pop an abortion pill, it is a choice, it happens in England illegally.
It is like arguing cigarettes - should be legal because illegal cigarettes are more harmful than legal cigarettes, but cigarettes are legal.
Just because it happens illegally doesn't mean it won't happen illegally if abortion was legal.

I don't view women who had an abortion as bad, I don't have to agree with the decision or with abortion. But I don't go around judging people, I know I am not perfect myself and I don't want people going around judging me, so I think it is wrong to go around judging others as bad as if I somehow was perfect. I think it is great to say positive things about people as that kind of judgment is good, but negative judgement isn't good for anyone and I am sorry that we each have judged each other as in one calling the other a liar, I don't think it is good, but then everyone gets defensive when they are called something.
I don't think you are bad, I do wish you the best in life as we all need things to go well for us, whether we agree on things or not.

RobertKK

bubblypop wrote: »

But our constitution allows for unrestricted abortion, women are constitutionally protected in their right to travel to avail of abortion.
So the constitution itself is hypocritical.
It's not the same as doing something that's legal overseas but illegal here. It's a right in the constitution to do it, that doesn't happen with other laws.

So, why do you feel it's OK for Irish women to have abortions overseas & not in their own country?

& I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning

I believe it will normalise abortion, and rates of abortion will rise.

pitifulgod

AnneFrank wrote: »

I have no problems with gay people at all, not like elm,it seems to repulse him

You didn't actually answer the question. Suspect nobody will believe you voted yes....

RobertKK

Moiratat wrote: »

Have you tried to see things from another perspective? If you were me, what would you have done?

It doesn't change how I feel.

gmisk

AnneFrank wrote: »

This makes you homophobic

It really doesn't....
I am gay and I don't think in anyway that is homophobic.
I don't like to think about a man and a woman having sex either but that doesn't make me heterophobic... I hope

PlaneSpeeking

RobertKK wrote: »

bubblypop wrote: »

But our constitution allows for unrestricted abortion, women are constitutionally protected in their right to travel to avail of abortion.
So the constitution itself is hypocritical.
It's not the same as doing something that's legal overseas but illegal here. It's a right in the constitution to do it, that doesn't happen with other laws.

So, why do you feel it's OK for Irish women to have abortions overseas & not in their own country?

& I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning

I believe it will normalise abortion, and rates of abortion will rise.

And you are free to believe any rubbish you wish. The fact that its been demonstrated many times in different countries that isn't true.

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

It doesn't change how I feel.

If you had any respect for women and what they go through during a pregnancy be it a crisis pregnancy or not, it'd change how you feel.

But you don't have any respect for them, so it won't.

RobertKK

Calina wrote: »

No but unlike you I am in favour of repealing the 8th amendment.

In 1983, abortion was illegal in the country under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act. This technically stayed on the books until a couple of years ago courtesy of the Protection of life in pregnancy legislation. What made abortion legal in Ireland was the 8th amendment simply because of the reference to the right to life of the mother. This was the basis of the X case. As a result whatever else you want to say about the 8th the truth is that it made abortion legal at a time when it was actually illegal based on an Act of parliament.

Anyone who needs to procure a termination is fully aware of the unborn. You aren't. You will never be. You cannot put yourself in their position. You cannot have the awareness that they have. You never will have the awareness they have.

I don't want to force women to travel. I would prefer they could go to their local doctors or hospital depending on their case and needs. We are not talking about whether it is practical to stop them traveling, but whether we can take away the necessity to travel by widening the ability to deal with their issues locally.

You think you don't want to stop them traveling. But you do want to compel them so you can feel good.

The last bit is your opinion. I don't need to feel good. I need to vote on what I believe is the right thing thing, we don't agree with is a right we both have.

RobertKK

robarmstrong wrote: »

If you had any respect for women and what they go through during a pregnancy be it a crisis pregnancy or not, it'd change how you feel.

But you don't have any respect for them, so it won't.

That is a horrible thing to say. Just because you had a family member who did, I had too and I can have my own opinion without the crap you put in about respect.

January

RobertKK wrote: »

Should alcohol be banned because of unsafe use?
No one is forced to pop an abortion pill, it is a choice, it happens in England illegally.
It is like arguing cigarettes - should be legal because illegal cigarettes are more harmful than legal cigarettes, but cigarettes are legal.
Just because it happens illegally doesn't mean it won't happen illegally if abortion was legal.

I don't view women who had an abortion as bad, I don't have to agree with the decision or with abortion. But I don't go around judging people, I know I am not perfect myself and I don't want people going around judging me, so I think it is wrong to go around judging others as bad as if I somehow was perfect. I think it is great to say positive things about people as that kind of judgment is good, but negative judgement isn't good for anyone and I am sorry that we each have judged each other as in one calling the other a liar, I don't think it is good, but then everyone gets defensive when they are called something.
I don't think you are bad, I do wish you the best in life as we all need things to go well for us, whether we agree on things or not.

I can't. I just can't Robert, I'd like to wish you well in your life but you're here stamping all over my right as a woman to decide whether to continue with a pregnancy or not. So I can't. I hope you can forgive me for that.

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

That is a horrible thing to say. Just because you had a family member who did, I had too and I can have my own opinion without the crap you put in about respect.

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

It's also a horrible thing to say most women in the UK have abortions for career and lifestyle purposes without a shred of evidence to back up your claim other than your outright horrific view of women who seek abortions.

RobertKK

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And you are free to believe any rubbish you wish. The fact that its been demonstrated many times in different countries that isn't true.

You are free to believe rubbish too but maybe you are blinkered to it, if you think only the side you disagree with believes in rubbish.

RobertKK

robarmstrong wrote: »

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

I know it hurts that you failed to convince me to vote Yes.

RobertKK

robarmstrong wrote: »

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

It's also a horrible thing to say most women in the UK have abortions for career and lifestyle purposes without a shred of evidence to back up your claim other than your outright horrific view of women who seek abortions.

It is fact, look it up.

Moiratat

RobertKK wrote: »

It doesn't change how I feel.

But what would have done if you were me?

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

I know it hurts that you failed to convince me to vote Yes.

I couldn't give a toss about convincing you to vote Yes.

Does it hurt trying to convince yourself women who seek abortions are nasty creatures who do it willy nilly to further their career and suit their lifestyle?

I've evidence to back up my claims Bob, all you do is lie and whinge when you're confronted about it.

spookwoman

RobertKK wrote: »

It is fact, look it up.

Fact is not all women want to have children and just because we have a womb doesn't mean we have to be have em

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

It is fact, look it up.

97% of abortions in the UK are on mental health grounds, this is fact.

Are you of the opinion that these are done for career/lifestyle choice, or do you have any statistics to back up your claims?

RobertKK

January wrote: »

I can't. I just can't Robert, I'd like to wish you well in your life but you're here stamping all over my right as a woman to decide whether to continue with a pregnancy or not. So I can't. I hope you can forgive me for that.

I still wish you the best. I don''t have to forgive you for anything, but maybe you should ignore me if that helps you.

PlaneSpeeking

RobertKK wrote: »

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And you are free to believe any rubbish you wish. The fact that its been demonstrated many times in different countries that isn't true.

You are free to believe rubbish too but maybe you are blinkered to it, if you think only the side you disagree with believes in rubbish.

It's like trying to reason with treacle. I give up.

PlaneSpeeking

RobertKK wrote: »

robarmstrong wrote: »

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

It's also a horrible thing to say most women in the UK have abortions for career and lifestyle purposes without a shred of evidence to back up your claim other than your outright horrific view of women who seek abortions.

It is fact, look it up.

I'm assuming on www.spuc.org.uk ?

amcalester

RobertKK wrote: »

I still wish you the best. I don''t have to forgive you for anything, but maybe you should ignore me if that helps you.

This pretty much sums up your attitude.

Smacks of “I’m all right jack”

Unfortunately she can’t ignore you because you have a say in her healthcare.

Your willful ignorance to this is astounding, but other people’s pain and suffering is ok.

January

RobertKK wrote: »

I still wish you the best. I don''t have to forgive you for anything, but maybe you should ignore me if that helps you.

I won't ignore you, I'll continue to counteract when you post misleading information so that anyone genuinely on the fence will see the actual facts.

RobertKK

robarmstrong wrote: »

I couldn't give a toss about convincing you to vote Yes.

Does it hurt trying to convince yourself women who seek abortions are nasty creatures who do it willy nilly to further their career and suit their lifestyle?

I've evidence to back up my claims Bob, all you do is lie and whinge when you're confronted about it.

It does hurt, or you wouldn't feel the need to constantly question, and try and put me down by saying I don't respect women, lie, whinge etc.

Just keep your negativity to yourself please, I had enough of it. You failed to convince with your 'evidence'.

RobertKK

January wrote: »

I won't ignore you, I'll continue to counteract when you post misleading information so that anyone genuinely on the fence will see the actual facts.

I am not misleading anyone. I am just a No voter, which automatically makes me wrong in your eyes.

RobertKK

amcalester wrote: »

This pretty much sums up your attitude.

Smacks of “I’m all right jack”

Unfortunately she can’t ignore you because you have a say in her healthcare.

Your willful ignorance to this is astounding, but other people’s pain and suffering is ok.

Most abortions are not healthcare.

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

It does hurt, or you wouldn't feel the need to constantly question, and try and put me down by saying I don't respect women, lie, whinge etc.

Just keep your negativity to yourself please, I had enough of it. You failed to convince with your 'evidence'.

Doesn't hurt at all Bob, it's my duty to pick apart all the lies you tell.

I haven't failed with my evidence at all, yet you've seemed to failed to produce ANY evidence to support your fantastical claims.

Women have had enough of your misogyny, could you keep that to yourself instead of projecting it onto them for seeking an abortion?