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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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Comments

  • #2192
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Are you able to read whole posts?
    Well it might make you somewhat homophobic, but if it does it also by default you are both homophobic and tolerant. Everyone has their own biases and areas of discrimination and they run far more like a gradient than a homophobic/not homophobic (or sexist/not sexist, racist/not racist, etc) switch, but what's most important is to not have that impact upon others.

    I would reckon that "But, while I may not like the idea of 2 men being together. What bloody business is it of mine? If they want to be (un)happy together who am I to stop them?" plants you pretty firmly in the bracket of having some prejudices against gay people (or homosexuality in general) but not wanting those to impact on the lives of said gay people, and personally I am fine with that.

    What I, and many others (yourself included I would assume) are not fine with is people who think they have a right to f*** with other peoples lives, damage their careers, damage their relationships, damage their mental health, and put their physical health and even very lives at risk simply because of their own prejudices. Because that's utterly disgusting, and a truth that the anti-repeal crowd simply do not want to face... hence all the attempts to sidetrack the conversation, answer questions that were never asked rather than those that were, etc etc.


  • #2193
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,109 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    Divert divert divert.you said it elm not me,and then blamed the church.Laughable
    Calm down there love.
    XOXO


  • #2194
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Oh oh oh, I'm being silenced.

    The rattle of the No Voter.

    We've given you heartbreaking detail as to why the 8th stands in the way, and as such, you with it. And when this is repeatedly pointed out, come back with "I'm being attacked"

    We're never going to convince each other, but knock off the ****e of playing the victim. You LITERALLY have the country and the Constitution on your side at the moment.

    Did I say I was silenced? I know some would like to and I get reported, but I will not claim I was silenced, which is different to people wanting someone silenced.

    You have the establishment on your side and some Fair City actors and some actors/actresses, and U2 and some other musicians and most of the media and all the political leaders, but lets see how it goes in the referendum?


  • #2195
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    What are most abortions? What makes them different to the experiences presented to you?

    I don't particularly want your congratulations. I want you to get the **** out of the way of progress. Its not a game, or a competition to be won.

    Most abortions in England are healthy women abortion healthy unborn lives, because they put career, their lifestyle etc ahead of the unborn life which is viewed as a problem, which would say there is something wrong in society when new life is seen as something bad.

    In the future, the pro-life side will be viewed like the anti-capital punishment side is - progressive and abortion supporting advocates will be on the wrong side of history.

    Oh sweet Jesus.

    Still no reply to me Robert ? I'm a "nice" woman so feel free. Ahem.


  • #2196
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Calm down there love.
    XOXO

    Haha ok buddy ðŸ‘


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  • #2197
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Most abortions in England are healthy women abortion healthy unborn lives, because they put career, their lifestyle etc ahead of the unborn life which is viewed as a problem, which would say there is something wrong in society when new life is seen as something bad.

    In the future, the pro-life side will be viewed like the anti-capital punishment side is - progressive and abortion supporting advocates will be on the wrong side of history.


    Well, I do think you are very wrong on your second point, but that's my opinion.

    In general, I understand your pro life stance, & I respect it to the extent that you are, at least, consistent. You appear to put the unborn above everything else, & consistently. So, not a hypocrite.
    However, I do not remember any pro life movement to repeal the 13th & 14th amendments. Ever. Why is it that the prolife side just want to keep abortion out of Ireland? Even though the women have constitutional rights to information & travel for terminations?


  • #2198
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Once again I respectfully ask you Robert - why are you so desperate to leave me and others like me in pain or at risk if death purely because you wish to dictate your morality to us?

    I vote with my conscience, not your conscience, not someone else's conscience, my own, I will not vote for something I disagree with because someone else says I must. Yes voters will act the same way, that is democracy.

    You are not left at the risk of death, which a former chairman of the institute of obstetricians and gynaecologists denied happens and who said he carried out 4 abortions under the 8th amendment to save lives and women aren't left to die.
    With Savita, it was really bad management and extremely slow to diagnose sepsis.
    Abortion being legal doesn't stop women dying. Bad practice and management is what leads to death.


  • #2199
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Most abortions in England are healthy women abortion healthy unborn lives, because they put career, their lifestyle etc ahead of the unborn life which is viewed as a problem, which would say there is something wrong in society when new life is seen as something bad.

    In the future, the pro-life side will be viewed like the anti-capital punishment side is - progressive and abortion supporting advocates will be on the wrong side of history.

    Absolutely no one is saying that procreation isn't important. As I've said before, riding is great Craic, and people will still get pregnant, both planned and crisis, but for the ones that don't want to remain pregnant, there are already options open to them. But those options should be safe, and available in this country.

    And no, the prolife side won't. They haven't yet, and the world already looks at them as bring a bit touched.


  • #2200
    Moiratat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38 ✭Moiratat


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Most abortions in England are healthy women abortion healthy unborn lives, because they put career, their lifestyle etc ahead of the unborn life which is viewed as a problem, which would say there is something wrong in society when new life is seen as something bad.

    In the future, the pro-life side will be viewed like the anti-capital punishment side is - progressive and abortion supporting advocates will be on the wrong side of history.

    Maybe they are considering what is best for THEIR child, a women who has other children to feed who might not be able to support another, a girl in college or secondary school who still lives at home and might not even have a job yet, a woman in an abusive relationship, a woman who is homeless, would you force these women to have children despite them deciding themselves that they don't want to struggle to rise many children but wants every child she has to have the best opportunity in life, or she might want to have experienced more in life before she can raise a child, or someone that's wants to be able to guarantee to themselves their child will have an actual safe home to live in.


  • #2201
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,059 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I vote with my conscience, not your conscience, not someone else's conscience, my own, I will not vote for something I disagree with because someone else says I must. Yes voters will act the same way, that is democracy.......
    .
    But by voting no you are saying to others they must do as you say


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  • #2202
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    RobertKK wrote: »
    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Once again I respectfully ask you Robert - why are you so desperate to leave me and others like me in pain or at risk if death purely because you wish to dictate your morality to us?

    I vote with my conscience, not your conscience, not someone else's conscience, my own, I will not vote for something I disagree with because someone else says I must. Yes voters will act the same way, that is democracy.

    You are not left at the risk of death, which a former chairman of the institute of obstetricians and gynaecologists denied happens and who said he carried out 4 abortions under the 8th amendment to save lives and women aren't left to die.
    With Savita, it was really bad management and extremely slow to diagnose sepsis.
    Abortion being legal doesn't stop women dying. Bad practice and management is what leads to death.

    Do you know that there have been times my pain has left me looking at a strip of 20 Tramadol and thinking of taking all so the pain is gone ?

    I have fallen over a dozen times in recent weeks. How do I know the next fall won't be in traffic? Or I hit my head? Or at home where no one can help me?

    Do not DARE to presume to limit what o and others are going through.

    The 8th does not prevent abortion. They're happening. I was on a ferry three weeks ago with a young girl going to Liverpool for one.

    Repealing the 8th will help people living in pain.


  • #2203
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Well, I do think you are very wrong on your second point, but that's my opinion.

    In general, I understand your pro life stance, & I respect it to the extent that you are, at least, consistent. You appear to put the unborn above everything else, & consistently. So, not a hypocrite.
    However, I do not remember any pro life movement to repeal the 13th & 14th amendments. Ever. Why is it that the prolife side just want to keep abortion out of Ireland? Even though the women have constitutional rights to information & travel for terminations?

    One can't chain women to their beds simply because they are pregnant, we live in a society where everyone is free to travel unless they are under arrest by the state. Pregnant women travel and most are not travelling for an abortion, maybe it is holidays or to visit relations, or work.
    We live in the age of the internet, why try and repeal something that one can simply google, information is widely available and I don't think censorship is a good route for a nation to go down.
    I just think repealing both would be stupid as people have the right to travel if they are not under arrest, and trying to censor information is stupid unless people want the internet censored and I don't think many want that. I just think it would be pointless.
    People can travel to other countries and take drugs that are legal there and not here, but are we going to advocate every person who travels needs a drug test when they return home from a country that has legal drugs?
    I don't believe there is support for repealing things that are not practicable like censoring information and the freedom to travel when pregnant women travel and most of the time it is not for an abortion.


  • #2204
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Most abortions in England are healthy women abortion healthy unborn lives, because they put career, their lifestyle etc ahead of the unborn life which is viewed as a problem, which would say there is something wrong in society when new life is seen as something bad.

    In the future, the pro-life side will be viewed like the anti-capital punishment side is - progressive and abortion supporting advocates will be on the wrong side of history.

    Most abortions in England are done on grounds of mental health.

    Have you any statistics to say that it's due to career, lifestyle?

    If not then you're passing opinion off as fact again Bob, and that's quite bold.


  • #2205
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    RobertKK wrote: »
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Well, I do think you are very wrong on your second point, but that's my opinion.

    In general, I understand your pro life stance, & I respect it to the extent that you are, at least, consistent. You appear to put the unborn above everything else, & consistently. So, not a hypocrite.
    However, I do not remember any pro life movement to repeal the 13th & 14th amendments. Ever. Why is it that the prolife side just want to keep abortion out of Ireland? Even though the women have constitutional rights to information & travel for terminations?

    One can't chain women to their beds simply because they are pregnant, we live in a society where everyone is free to travel unless they are under arrest by the state. Pregnant women travel and most are not travelling for an abortion, maybe it is holidays or to visit relations, or work.
    We live in the age of the internet, why try and repeal something that one can simply google, information is widely available and I don't think censorship is a good route for a nation to go down.
    I just think repealing both would be stupid as people have the right to travel if they are not under arrest, and trying to censor information is stupid unless people want the internet censored and I don't think many want that. I just think it would be pointless.
    People can travel to other countries and take drugs that are legal there and not here, but are we going to advocate every person who travels needs a drug test when they return home from a country that has legal drugs?
    I don't believe there is support for repealing things that are not practicable like censoring information and the freedom to travel when pregnant women travel and most of the time it is not for an abortion.

    TL:DR

    NIMBY


  • #2206
    joe40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,813 ✭✭✭joe40


    https://www.womenonweb.org/en/page/619/abortion-laws-worldwide

    Just read this article and look at the map to see how isolated we are in the developed world on this issue.
    Just ask yourself how have all these other countries got it so wrong. Are they immoral, evil, selfish or maybe they recognise that sometimes abortion is needed.
    It doesn't make it pleasant or painless but still sometimes needed.
    Look at the company we are keeping and correlate that with civil liberties and human rights.


  • #2207
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    RobertKK wrote: »
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Well, I do think you are very wrong on your second point, but that's my opinion.

    In general, I understand your pro life stance, & I respect it to the extent that you are, at least, consistent. You appear to put the unborn above everything else, & consistently. So, not a hypocrite.
    However, I do not remember any pro life movement to repeal the 13th & 14th amendments. Ever. Why is it that the prolife side just want to keep abortion out of Ireland? Even though the women have constitutional rights to information & travel for terminations?

    One can't chain women to their beds simply because they are pregnant, we live in a society where everyone is free to travel unless they are under arrest by the state. Pregnant women travel and most are not travelling for an abortion, maybe it is holidays or to visit relations, or work.
    We live in the age of the internet, why try and repeal something that one can simply google, information is widely available and I don't think censorship is a good route for a nation to go down.
    I just think repealing both would be stupid as people have the right to travel if they are not under arrest, and trying to censor information is stupid unless people want the internet censored and I don't think many want that. I just think it would be pointless.
    People can travel to other countries and take drugs that are legal there and not here, but are we going to advocate every person who travels needs a drug test when they return home from a country that has legal drugs?
    I don't believe there is support for repealing things that are not practicable like censoring information and the freedom to travel when pregnant women travel and most of the time it is not for an abortion.

    Cop out, Robert. Your principles are not principles but a desire to be protected from the sight of things. So long as you can't see it, that is fine by you. Regardless of the hardship it imposes on others. People who have to deal with reality, a reality you hide from by saying Let them get planes.


  • #2208
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    My comments are factually correct

    Any can read your previous posts on other threads and find homophobic comments from you people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones perhaps.


  • #2209
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Do you know that there have been times my pain has left me looking at a strip of 20 Tramadol and thinking of taking all so the pain is gone ?

    I have fallen over a dozen times in recent weeks. How do I know the next fall won't be in traffic? Or I hit my head? Or at home where no one can help me?

    Do not DARE to presume to limit what o and others are going through.

    The 8th does not prevent abortion. They're happening. I was on a ferry three weeks ago with a young girl going to Liverpool for one.

    Repealing the 8th will help people living in pain.

    So you are saying you are not healthy.

    The constitution could be changed without it going all unrestricted, I can't vote Yes when I know what is being proposed, I can't vote Yes as I will feel guilt as I would feel complicit in allowing unrestricted abortion which is something I wholesomely disagree with.


  • #2210
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Just going to ignore me now is it Robert?


  • #2211
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Calina wrote: »
    Cop out, Robert. Your principles are not principles but a desire to be protected from the sight of things. So long as you can't see it, that is fine by you. Regardless of the hardship it imposes on others. People who have to deal with reality, a reality you hide from by saying Let them get planes.

    You say "So long as you can't see it, that is fine by you" isn't that what some accuse pro-choice of being? They can't see the unborn so it is ok to abort.

    I gave my reasons.
    Do you think censorship of abortion information would work?
    Do you think it is practicable to stop pregnant women from travelling?
    I don't to both so it is not a cop out, maybe you see different?


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  • #2212
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    RobertKK wrote: »
    So you are saying you are not healthy.

    The constitution could be changed without it going all unrestricted, I can't vote Yes when I know what is being proposed, I can't vote Yes as I will feel guilt as I would feel complicit in allowing unrestricted abortion which is something I wholesomely disagree with.

    Strange how you feel guilty for feeling complicit in allowing unrestricted abortion (you are not complicit, nobody is complicit to what their vote entails), but you feel no guilt towards all the women you'll be slamming a door in the face of.

    Right.


  • #2213
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Most abortions in England are healthy women abortion healthy unborn lives, because they put career, their lifestyle etc ahead of the unborn life which is viewed as a problem, which would say there is something wrong in society when new life is seen as something bad.

    In the future, the pro-life side will be viewed like the anti-capital punishment side is - progressive and abortion supporting advocates will be on the wrong side of history.

    Really I only members of one group wanting to bring back the death penalty and thats the retain side via Justin Barrett.


  • #2214
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,426 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I haven't discussed with anyone here their personal experience of abortion. I discussed it generally.
    I never tried to silence anyone discuss their personal experience, or question then on their abortion experience.
    But I have seen the hostility for posting something that doesn't go with the general narrative that the Yes side here wants and how it goes...

    I don't understand why there is not more people talking and listening to people who have had abortions. In this thread you have the opportunity to discuss with someone why they had an abortion (if they feel willing to share). You can understand what goes through a woman's mind when they find themselves faced with a crisis pregnancy.

    It doesn't matter if it changes your mind on how you vote, and you dont have to agree with it, but it might help you understand why.


  • #2215
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,059 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    RobertKK wrote: »
    One can't chain women to their beds simply because they are pregnant, we live in a society where everyone is free to travel unless they are under arrest by the state. Pregnant women travel and most are not travelling for an abortion, maybe it is holidays or to visit relations, or work.
    We live in the age of the internet, why try and repeal something that one can simply google, information is widely available and I don't think censorship is a good route for a nation to go down.
    I just think repealing both would be stupid as people have the right to travel if they are not under arrest, and trying to censor information is stupid unless people want the internet censored and I don't think many want that. I just think it would be pointless.
    People can travel to other countries and take drugs that are legal there and not here, but are we going to advocate every person who travels needs a drug test when they return home from a country that has legal drugs?
    I don't believe there is support for repealing things that are not practicable like censoring information and the freedom to travel when pregnant women travel and most of the time it is not for an abortion.

    Free to travel as long as you dont go to the state for help. They sectioned a 16 year old girl, they forced a caesarean on another woman


  • #2216
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    spookwoman wrote: »
    But by voting no you are saying to others they must do as you say

    As an Irish citizen I have the right to vote Yes or No, when it comes to what is in our constitution.
    I am voting for what I believe is right for this country, not what others believe, but what I believe, which every Yes and No voter will do.


  • #2217
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    January wrote: »
    So tell me this Robert, why would you deny me access to an abortion in my own country, if you're not judging me for it?

    I don't believe we have to have laws in this country, because other countries have certain laws.
    You want me to judge you with the loaded question which refers to you.


  • #2218
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    RobertKK wrote: »
    As an Irish citizen I have the right to vote Yes or No, when it comes to what is in our constitution.
    I am voting for what I believe is right for this country, not what others believe, but what I believe, which every Yes and No voter will do.

    You are voting for what you think is right for you not your country.

    JFK covered it quite eloquently in a speech.


  • #2219
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    But there are already abortions happening in this country, up to 5 women a day take abortion pills. You're not stopping abortion. One day a woman will die from taking abortion pills alone without medical supervision, what will your response be then?


  • #2220
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I don't believe we have to have laws in this country, because other countries have certain laws.
    You want me to judge you with the loaded question which refers to you.

    But we have a constitutional law that allows for women to travel for abortions... So you're not stopping abortions, you're just making them unsafe.

    I don't want you to judge me, believe me. I want you to see that most women have abortions for valid reasons such as they can't afford a child (or another child), they feel they can't raise a child (or another child). We're desperate women. We are not bad women.


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  • #2221
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I don't understand why there is not more people talking and listening to people who have had abortions. In this thread you have the opportunity to discuss with someone why they had an abortion (if they feel willing to share). You can understand what goes through a woman's mind when they find themselves faced with a crisis pregnancy.

    It doesn't matter if it changes your mind on how you vote, and you dont have to agree with it, but it might help you understand why.

    Why bother discussing with people in this thread.
    If one says anything however tiny that could be construed as being critical it would be jumped upon so I don't ask as I don't want to upset by asking personal questions about abortion, especially when it is well known how I will vote, and I know it would make it easier for something to be taken up the wrong way.


This discussion has been closed.
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