The Sub 4 Support Thread

ewc78

aquinn wrote: »

We're on an 18 week one so yesterday did the 14 mile run. There is no week zero so that could be your difference as marathon now on a Sunday.

This week then is the 3*2 mile at HMP - 10 mile.

Next week then accomodates the 10km race.

I think you might have it wrong. I've just looked at the plan and this week should be 16 weeks to go. So the workout this week is the progression run of 4 x 8mins at various paces.
Next week does take into account for the 10k alright, but it takes it into account by offering a different workout than the 3x2 at HM pace with a 10miles with strides or Hill sprints included.
I think you are a week ahead in the plan than where you should be.

aquinn

ewc78 wrote: »

I think you might have it wrong. I've just looked at the plan and this week should be 16 weeks to go. So the workout this week is the progression run of 4 x 8mins at various paces.
Next week does take into account for the 10k alright, but it takes it into account by offering a different workout than the 3x2 at HM pace with a 10miles with strides or Hill sprints included.
I think you are a week ahead in the plan than where you should be.

This is what we are going on so we did the 4*8 last week:

Weeks to go Date Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Total Mileage
18 24/06/2019 Easy/rest Easy/rest 10 x 800m (jog recovery) Recovery Easy/rest Easy/rest Long run-13 miles 35-40 miles
17 01/07/2019 Easy/rest Easy/rest progression run (8min steady-hard) Recovery Easy/rest Easy/rest Long run-14 miles 36-42 miles
16 08/07/2019 Easy/rest Easy/rest Tempo: 3 x 2mi @ HMP-10k (.5mi Rec) Recovery Easy/rest Easy/rest Long run-16 miles 40-46 miles
15 15/07/2019 Easy/rest Easy/rest 10 miles with strides or Hill sprints Recovery Easy/rest Easy/rest 10k race 30-33 miles

I am actually relying on two others for accuracy but they both agree. If I do a count of weeks from Oct 27 to July 7 it is 16 weeks. I think though as the marathon is a Sunday and the plan used to have it on the Monday is that the week as there is no week zero of the marathon?

ewc78

When I printed off the plan I wrote the start date of each week beside each week's plan working backwards from the last week of training with Monday being the start day of the week.
The last week( 1 week to go in the column)starts on Monday the 21st of October with the Marathon on the following Sunday 27th October.
If you work back then through the plan marking each week with the date of that Monday, this week starts on Monday July 8th which is 16 weeks to go and is the Progression run week.
I still think you are a week ahead of where you should be but I think it will work out for you as it looks like to me that you started the plan a week too soon but you will make up for that because you are doing an extra week by doing both of the 15 weeks to go weeks. In theory then it should get you back on track with the plan the following week of 14 weeks to go.
If you look at the weeks to go column on the plan you will see the 3x2 mile Tempo Run and the 10miles with strides or Hill Sprints are both 15 weeks to go weeks, the difference is one is if you are not racing the 10km the other is an Alternative workout if you are, they aren't two separate weeks of training, it's the same the following week with 14 weeks to go, one is for those who did race the 10km the other is for those that didn't. It goes back to normal then for everyone with 13 weeks to go.

Hedgehoggy

ewc78 wrote: »

When I printed off the plan I wrote the start date of each week beside each week's plan working backwards from the last week of training with Monday being the start day of the week.
The last week( 1 week to go in the column)starts on Monday the 21st of October with the Marathon on the following Sunday 27th October.
If you work back then through the plan marking each week with the date of that Monday, this week starts on Monday July 8th which is 16 weeks to go and is the Progression run week.
I still think you are a week ahead of where you should be but I think it will work out for you as it looks like to me that you started the plan a week too soon but you will make up for that because you are doing an extra week by doing both of the 15 weeks to go weeks. In theory then it should get you back on track with the plan the following week of 14 weeks to go.
If you look at the weeks to go column on the plan you will see the 3x2 mile Tempo Run and the 10miles with strides or Hill Sprints are both 15 weeks to go weeks, the difference is one is if you are not racing the 10km the other is an Alternative workout if you are, they aren't two separate weeks of training, it's the same the following week with 14 weeks to go, one is for those who did race the 10km the other is for those that didn't. It goes back to normal then for everyone with 13 weeks to go.

Ya - I had the same timeline and am currently in wk 16 - progression run to do this week. I don't think its any harm to be a week ahead though - you could just repeat a session! I think I might have repeated the 3x2 session last year as I started a week early.

annapr

ewc78 wrote: »

When I printed off the plan I wrote the start date of each week beside each week's plan working backwards from the last week of training with Monday being the start day of the week.
The last week( 1 week to go in the column)starts on Monday the 21st of October with the Marathon on the following Sunday 27th October.
If you work back then through the plan marking each week with the date of that Monday, this week starts on Monday July 8th which is 16 weeks to go and is the Progression run week.
I still think you are a week ahead of where you should be but I think it will work out for you as it looks like to me that you started the plan a week too soon but you will make up for that because you are doing an extra week by doing both of the 15 weeks to go weeks. In theory then it should get you back on track with the plan the following week of 14 weeks to go.
If you look at the weeks to go column on the plan you will see the 3x2 mile Tempo Run and the 10miles with strides or Hill Sprints are both 15 weeks to go weeks, the difference is one is if you are not racing the 10km the other is an Alternative workout if you are, they aren't two separate weeks of training, it's the same the following week with 14 weeks to go, one is for those who did race the 10km the other is for those that didn't. It goes back to normal then for everyone with 13 weeks to go.

Just to help aquinn out here, we added a week to the plan... making it 18 weeks instead of 17... on the theory that having a week to 'bank' is probably no harm or for the inevitable interruptions that will come...

This is my third time starting the meno plan, I really like it for the variety of the sessions. I've never done the highest mileage on the plan, and I'm fine with that. I'm not aiming for sub 4 either though... sub 4:08 would make me very happy

Arsenium

Hi all,

Is there a link to the meno plan anywhere?

ewc78

Here's the 17 week version
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Iqh0HwS7Tg0CIUOs8LPvyGiPaSKI1LxP0DIV8Vuazm8/edit#gid=906928231

ewc78

annapr wrote: »

Just to help aquinn out here, we added a week to the plan... making it 18 weeks instead of 17... on the theory that having a week to 'bank' is probably no harm or for the inevitable interruptions that will come...

This is my third time starting the meno plan, I really like it for the variety of the sessions. I've never done the highest mileage on the plan, and I'm fine with that. I'm not aiming for sub 4 either though... sub 4:08 would make me very happy

Yeah knew there was an extra week in there, no harm as you say.
I wasn't trying to be awkward about the wrong week I was just doubting myself for a bit also so just wanted to be sure what was right, turns out we both were

Hedgehoggy

ewc78 wrote: »

Yeah knew there was an extra week in there, no harm as you say.
I wasn't trying to be awkward about the wrong week I was just doubting myself for a bit also so just wanted to be sure what was right, turns out we both were

Same here.... But must have counted the dates about 20 times yesterday!!!!!! 🙄

Murph_D

ewc78 wrote: »

Here's the 17 week version
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Iqh0HwS7Tg0CIUOs8LPvyGiPaSKI1LxP0DIV8Vuazm8/edit#gid=906928231

Great to see my spreadsheet still in use after all these years. I added some dates to help avoid any confusion. Relax, you're all on the right track!

cullenswood

Followed that plan last year and it worked out very well. Tough but fair sessions, and I loved the flexibility of it bar the two prescribed runs

ewc78

Week 2 finished,14 miles done nice and early this morning, 37 miles for the week. Was beautiful weather this morning for running.
Off to Croke Park later to see the REAL Boys in Blue take on Tipp in the hurling. Probably more chance of me going Sub 3 in Marathon than us actually winning but like I say to myself on the day of the Marathon even when things are going wrong,sure isn't it great to be there!

Hedgehoggy

ewc78 wrote: »

Week 2 finished,14 miles done nice and early this morning, 37 miles for the week. Was beautiful weather this morning for running.
Off to Croke Park later to see the REAL Boys in Blue take on Tipp in the hurling. Probably more chance of me going Sub 3 in Marathon than us actually winning but like I say to myself on the day of the Marathon even when things are going wrong,sure isn't it great to be there!

Lovely morning for a long run alright!

The Black Oil

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Lovely morning for a long run alright!

Magnificent weather on Sunday.

Second outing with the meno plan for me. I'd like to improve on 3:57 to 3:50 or better. Won't gauge things until after the FD10.

ewc78

Yevon wrote: »

I've tried to commit to running more easy miles in training for my next Marathon with a sub 4 attempt in mind (previous two were 4.18 and 4.06)

This week's plan has 11k (done at 5.50 per km) an 8k (planned at 5.00 per km) a marathon pace 15k (5.40 per km) and a 28km long run (around 6.10 - 6.20 per km)

I'm about 7 weeks out. Any observations or opinions? I'd actually really like to see what others chasing a sub 4 like myself or doing, is there a Strava Group by any chance?

Last week I did 40 miles. 34 of them were at 10min/mile pace(6.13/km) or thereabouts. The other 6 made up a 3x2 mile workout at Half Marathon Pace as per the plan. Think I averaged about 8:15 per mile (5.07/km)for each 2 mile rep give or take a few seconds.

Murph_D

Yevon wrote: »

I've tried to commit to running more easy miles in training for my next Marathon with a sub 4 attempt in mind (previous two were 4.18 and 4.06)

This week's plan has 11k (done at 5.50 per km) an 8k (planned at 5.00 per km) a marathon pace 15k (5.40 per km) and a 28km long run (around 6.10 - 6.20 per km)

I'm about 7 weeks out. Any observations or opinions? I'd actually really like to see what others chasing a sub 4 like myself or doing, is there a Strava Group by any chance?

This looks a bit off. If your marathon pace is 5:42, the 15k and the LR are about right. But those are two tough runs and you also have what amounts to a 40 min tempo run (the 8k) and an 11k at just under MP.

It’s too much, too hard - amounts to 4 sessions really, and in my opinion it’s not necessary (or desirable) for a 4-hr target. Where did this schedule come from?

Fenster

I'm running my first in four weeks with a target time of 3:30, and following Hal Higdon Advanced 2 to get there. So far I'm bang on target in training for my target time of ~4:55/km:

• I've completed two half marathons above target time.
• I've completed training runs of up to 32k at ~5:30/km.
• All my training runs are right where they should be.

Call me superstitious, but I feel a horrible sense of impending doom when I think about it, given how hard everyone says the full is!

Murph_D

Fenster wrote: »

I'm running my first in four weeks with a target time of 3:30, and following Hal Higdon Advanced 2 to get there. So far I'm bang on target in training for my target time of ~4:55/km:

• I've completed two half marathons above target time.
• I've completed training runs of up to 32k at ~5:30/km.
• All my training runs are right where they should be.

Call me superstitious, but I feel a horrible sense of impending doom when I think about it, given how hard everyone says the full is!

If the bolded bit is true, you have no reason to be pessimistic. What were the HM times?

Fenster

1:38:41 and 1:39:09. I'll be running the full a bit slower for the sake of endurance.

skyblue46

Fenster wrote: »

1:38:41 and 1:39:09. I'll be running the full a bit slower for the sake of endurance.

Hmmm....methinks 3:30 is a little optimistic off those times. Not impossible but a big ask.

Fenster

Ah yeah, I figure!

Murph_D

Fenster wrote: »

1:38:41 and 1:39:09. I'll be running the full a bit slower for the sake of endurance.

Well obviously a M is run slower than a HM. But how much? My own 3:30 breakthrough was about 6 weeks off a 1:41 half, so I obviously think you have a chance. Depends on your marathon chops though. It’s a totally different game to the HM. Good luck!

Murph_D

Yevon wrote: »

Thanks for the input! I'm working off the mileage from a plan I used for my first marathon that I got from runnersworld and I've tweaked it to suit myself.
The easy run was meant to be a bit slower but I was running what felt like an easy pace and it ended up faster than expected.

So to rectify what would your suggestion be? My weeks will take the above format until race day (Dingle in September) just increasing the long run and midweeks run maybe up another 5k between the 3 in total.

Maybe make the easy run easier and take the Tempo run down to 5.20 or so? Or drop a run? Suggestions welcome. Cheers

Too many variables and unknowns to make meaningful contribution to your schedule without knowing a lot more about you. Why not just try the untweaked version, using a calculator like this one to work out what paces you should be running at (based on recent race result or if no race, best all out effort)?

Bluesquare

I’m not sure sub 4 is a target for me. I’m training like it is my target at the moment though - plan started on the 8th of July . My plan has threshold intervals ,MP intervals, easy runs and long runs with up to 50% at MP. I’m currently calling 5:00-5:10 as my threshold pace and 5:37 as marathon pace . The mileage on my plan is very low - 540 miles over the period . I have added some easy miles to bring total up to match Hal intermediate 2 plan . I looked at the Meno plan but way to many miles for me to even pretend I was able for . I started the plan with a base of 25 miles a week . It peaks at 47.

At what stage should I make a call on a target and what is the deciding factor .

I’ve read back over this thread and great advice from last year . Also the factors for deciding whether you can do it or not seem random so it’s a tough call .

Anyways how is everyone’s training going ? I reached 38 miles last week and legs tired already!

skyblue46

Bluesquare wrote: »

I’m not sure sub 4 is a target for me. I’m training like it is my target at the moment though - plan started on the 8th of July . My plan has threshold intervals ,MP intervals, easy runs and long runs with up to 50% at MP. I’m currently calling 5:00-5:10 as my threshold pace and 5:37 as marathon pace . The mileage on my plan is very low - 540 miles over the period . I have added some easy miles to bring total up to match Hal intermediate 2 plan . I looked at the Meno plan but way to many miles for me to even pretend I was able for . I started the plan with a base of 25 miles a week . It peaks at 47.

At what stage should I make a call on a target and what is the deciding factor .

I’ve read back over this thread and great advice from last year . Also the factors for deciding whether you can do it or not seem random so it’s a tough call .

Anyways how is everyone’s training going ? I reached 38 miles last week and legs tired already!

Maybe you could look back at the last couple of DCM threads. If I remember rightly there was a table each year where people entered their target times beforehand and their result after the event. You could look at the training logs of those who were aiming for 3:59:59 and see what HM times they had, how well they trained and what mileage they were doing.

hillsiderunner

Bluesquare wrote: »

I’m not sure sub 4 is a target for me. I’m training like it is my target at the moment though - plan started on the 8th of July . My plan has threshold intervals ,MP intervals, easy runs and long runs with up to 50% at MP. I’m currently calling 5:00-5:10 as my threshold pace and 5:37 as marathon pace . The mileage on my plan is very low - 540 miles over the period . I have added some easy miles to bring total up to match Hal intermediate 2 plan . I looked at the Meno plan but way to many miles for me to even pretend I was able for . I started the plan with a base of 25 miles a week . It peaks at 47.

At what stage should I make a call on a target and what is the deciding factor .

I’ve read back over this thread and great advice from last year . Also the factors for deciding whether you can do it or not seem random so it’s a tough call .

Anyways how is everyone’s training going ? I reached 38 miles last week and legs tired already!

I got the full 46miles on my plan done last week and although the legs are fine, body and lungs were very much in need of a day off yesterday. Am slowly coming back to feeling normal and will do some miles this eve.

The advantage (I guess) of my plan (as I created it) is that my maximum weekly mileage will be 49-50 miles. So it's not going to get too much worse, but I hope I will be fitter as I progress!

Dealerz2.0

Hi
Long time lurker but haven't posted with too much confidence (imposter syndrome!! :rolleyes:) on this thread.

I will be posting majority of my training progress in my log: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057964220&page=11

I am following the P&D 18 week plan, it's going well, really "enjoying" it.

Will no doubt have more questions as DCM gets closer.

thanks

Kellygirl

Bluesquare wrote: »

I’m not sure sub 4 is a target for me. I’m training like it is my target at the moment though - plan started on the 8th of July . My plan has threshold intervals ,MP intervals, easy runs and long runs with up to 50% at MP. I’m currently calling 5:00-5:10 as my threshold pace and 5:37 as marathon pace . The mileage on my plan is very low - 540 miles over the period . I have added some easy miles to bring total up to match Hal intermediate 2 plan . I looked at the Meno plan but way to many miles for me to even pretend I was able for . I started the plan with a base of 25 miles a week . It peaks at 47.

At what stage should I make a call on a target and what is the deciding factor .

I’ve read back over this thread and great advice from last year . Also the factors for deciding whether you can do it or not seem random so it’s a tough call .

Anyways how is everyone’s training going ? I reached 38 miles last week and legs tired already!

I’m not calling a target time until after Charleville which is September 15th. I’d say I’ll more than likely be 4:05-4:10 on the day but currently doing my pmp miles at 8:55-9:05 which is sub 4 as prescribed by my coach. That was for this morning’s session. It could change for a longer session with more mp miles. So what I’m saying is I suppose that I’m training to current fitness and I’ll see how I am closer to the day. Are you on Strava Bluesquare?

ewc78

I'm doing the Rock n Roll Half Sunday week.
I'm not sure how to approach it and nearly wish I hadn't bothered signing up.
Should I race it to see where I am progress wise?
I'm not all that bothered with setting PBs in Half Marathons at the moment so I was thinking about just going to treat it as a long run and tack on a few miles before to bring it up to the 18 miles that the plan asks for that weekend.
My thinking is it will be more beneficial to my training to stick to the required LSR than racing a half. I feel it takes me too long to recover from such efforts and I would rather keep to the plan and still be in shape to do the following weeks workouts.
I may throw in a few MP miles during the half but other than than just take it as a LSR but with a medal and t shirt at the finish

Bluesquare

Kellygirl wrote: »

I’m not calling a target time until after Charleville which is September 15th. I’d say I’ll more than likely be 4:05-4:10 on the day but currently doing my pmp miles at 8:55-9:05 which is sub 4 as prescribed by my coach. That was for this morning’s session. It could change for a longer session with more mp miles. So what I’m saying is I suppose that I’m training to current fitness and I’ll see how I am closer to the day. Are you on Strava Bluesquare?

Charleville sounds like a great race , one of these years I might make it to Cork for the festivities ! I’m doing Ratoath in September which I did last year and hated . But goldfish brain and all that .

Your using similar paces to me all right for training . My head tells me I should be aiming for about 4:10. The problem I have is that my heart ain’t listening and 4:10 isn’t motivating . I know it’s still a decent marathon and would be a pb but sigh there is no glamour in it ! I’m on Strava alright - well my runs feed in from garmin anyway !