The Sub 4 Support Thread

Bluesquare

ewc78 wrote: »

Well I suppose it had to happen sooner or later, but today was the first run where the doubts started to creep in.
20 miles with 10 easy and 10 steady. I took in miles 2 to 15 of Marathon course from Stoneybatter to Walkinstown Roundabout.
Found the 10 easy very manageable and comfortable but the 10 steady from about mile 14 on took a lot out of me. I'd forgotten how much of a drag the Crumlin Road is from the Coombe onwards, it really takes an effot to get through it.
I averaged 10:05 for the easy miles and tried to keep the steady at between 9:20 and 9:30 pace.
I was spent by the end and wondered how would I manage another 6 miles at a faster pace as there was no way I'd have done another 6 today.

I've ran 51 miles(inc todays milage) this week which is the most I've ever run in a single week, so how much of an effect would that have on a long run like today?

For sure the mileage will be in your legs that’s the cumulative fatigue doing it’s job. Doing steady for 10 miles at the end of a 20 mile run at the end of a 51 mile week is fairly good going . Having doubts is a normal part of the process.

ewc78

Yeah sure I suppose I knew that anyway but that didn't stop the doubts!
When I add in last sundays long run of 19 miles that's 70 miles from Sunday to Sunday.
It was the first run this training block that I struggled to finish so that's what started the doubts.

The Black Oil

ewc, I hear ya. 49 miles this week. Not long in the door and out of the shower. Same run. Felt like my arse was kicked from mile 14 on, but 16 in particular was hateful and I wanted to quit. Fairly lost the steady stuff altogether.

ewc78

The Black Oil wrote: »

ewc, I hear ya. 49 miles this week. Not long in the door and out of the shower. Same run. Felt like my arse was kicked from mile 14 on, but 16 in particular was hateful and I wanted to quit. Fairly lost the steady stuff altogether.

Yeah it was a tough run. I kept the steady pace going until the last mile which was all up hill back up the Upper Glen Road of the Phoenix Park so it nearly bloody killed me.!

sibeen99

Just wondering, those of you on p and d plan, what are you doing if not racing where there is a race in the plan? There’s one coming up this week and I’m just wondering should I do a tempo run or any ideas?

The Black Oil

Wave 2, getting real now. :eek:

Kellygirl

The Black Oil wrote: »

Wave 2, getting real now. :eek:

Some here. I’ll be dithering for the next 7 weeks now whether to stay there or drop back. The 4 and 4:10 pacers are in Wave 3. Last year I went at the back of wave 2 but ended up slowing and the 4 pacers passed me and then the 4:10 by the RDS.should be in better shape this year and while I wouldn’t stick with the pacers for the entire time I like the idea of using them loosely - maybe even to catch up with.

ewc78

Kellygirl wrote: »

Some here. I’ll be dithering for the next 7 weeks now whether to stay there or drop back. The 4 and 4:10 pacers are in Wave 3. Last year I went at the back of wave 2 but ended up slowing and the 4 pacers passed me and then the 4:10 by the RDS.should be in better shape this year and while I wouldn’t stick with the pacers for the entire time I like the idea of using them loosely - maybe even to catch up with.

Wave 2 myself also but I'm thinking along the same lines as yourself as regards dropping back to wave 3. Might actually start off with 4:10 for a few miles to ensure I don't go off too fast like I did last year and slowly catch up and hopefully pass the 4hr.

Kellygirl

ewc78 wrote: »

Wave 2 myself also but I'm thinking along the same lines as yourself as regards dropping back to wave 3. Might actually start off with 4:10 for a few miles to ensure I don't go off too fast like I did last year and slowly catch up and hopefully pass the 4hr.

My thoughts too.

passinginterest

I’m in the same boat too. In wave 2 but considering dropping back to start closer to the 4.10 pacer with the aim of catching the 4. Will see how the half goes. I know I’d also like the extra bit of space starting at the very back of wave 2 and self pacing might give.

The Black Oil

For my three previous DCMs I was in wave 3. First time in 2.

I'm happy to follow the 3:50 pacers, at least initially, but without being glued to them. Key warning signs I reckon are my heart, upper body feeling and how we get through the first 10k, probably half way too. If there's anything off with either of those (effort in particular) I'll have to ease back. I can sit back, but I don't like losing visual sight of pacers as it becomes a more mental battle then. Ideal world scenario is I'm comfortable enough around 3:50 for the majority of the race and can slip past them towards the end and crack 3:45.

I had a very quick look at some of 2018's results yesterday, without wishing to get too caught in other people's times. Some (M35 category, chip times) did 3:50:XX and their 10ks range from 48-55. Some got through the half in 1:44-, others 1:50-155. Wonder who had the tougher day.

Last year I was
10k 56:29
Half 1:59:24
30k 2:50:35
Chip 3:57:25

Happens to be someone with the same name as me and M35 too. He ran:
10k 58:26
Half 2:03:24
30k 3:00:21
Chip 4:23:24

Treviso

sibeen99 wrote: »

Just wondering, those of you on p and d plan, what are you doing if not racing where there is a race in the plan? There’s one coming up this week and I’m just wondering should I do a tempo run or any ideas?

I did a 5k run for this - even though plan said 8-15k race. Can you do a parkrun on that day?

Important to do the race i feel, as the 17M the following day tests you out quite a bit. I suffered a lot for that run

hillsiderunner

ewc78 wrote: »

Wave 2 myself also but I'm thinking along the same lines as yourself as regards dropping back to wave 3. Might actually start off with 4:10 for a few miles to ensure I don't go off too fast like I did last year and slowly catch up and hopefully pass the 4hr.

I am thinking the same as all of you it seems. The aim is sub-4hr for me, and this remains the case (recent HM of 1:49 seems to offer hope) but Eyrie gave recommendation to do the first 10k slower than goal pace ... and she had a really successful DCM last year so I am inclined to take the advice,

When I signed up I wrote 3:55 for my goal time as I was thinking of all those people with over-optimistic goals getting under my feet at the start. So I have wave 2. But at that time had not been thinking of a slower start.

I don't know, is it the case that Wave 3 will be littered with mad people running slow and getting under the feet? Am not bothered about the pacers at all, I am not planning to run with them.

Singer

hillsiderunner wrote: »

I am thinking the same as all of you it seems. The aim is sub-4hr for me, and this remains the case (recent HM of 1:49 seems to offer hope) but Eyrie gave recommendation to do the first 10k slower than goal pace ... and she had a really successful DCM last year so I am inclined to take the advice,

Doing the first 7 miles at DCM slower than desired pace is essential to running an optimal time. Not only should you be easing into the race and dealing with congestion, but you're also doing the most climbing you'll do on the day. If you're going for sub-4 I'd stick well behind the pacers until after the turn at Castleknock and only then start catching up, also taking it easy on the hills up to Inchicore etc.

Easier said than done, but it works:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1932215237

Bluesquare

I’m also in wave two. I’ve no plan to follow pacers, - a guy in my club is going to pace a few of us to ensure we start slow . I’m not 100% convinced I’ll be aiming for sub 4 yet but if I was my plan is to do first 5k in just under 30 mins and 10k in 58 mins . After the 7 mile mark to ramp up to marathon pace . I have added the extra distance at end into these calculations as well ( 3 sec a km) .

This way if sub 4 isn’t for me at least I still have the chance of a decent race .

Kellygirl

Bluesquare wrote: »

I’m also in wave two. I’ve no plan to follow pacers, - a guy in my club is going to pace a few of us to ensure we start slow . I’m not 100% convinced I’ll be aiming for sub 4 yet but if I was my plan is to do first 5k in just under 30 mins and 10k in 58 mins . After the 7 mile mark to ramp up to marathon pace . I have added the extra distance at end into these calculations as well ( 3 sec a km) .

This way if sub 4 isn’t for me at least I still have the chance of a decent race .

That sounds like a good plan? When you say up to MP then what pace are you thinking of? Is the guy in your club pacing that way and you plan to go with him or these paces are your own plan?

Bluesquare

Kellygirl wrote: »

That sounds like a good plan? When you say up to MP then what pace are you thinking of? Is the guy in your club pacing that way and you plan to go with him or these paces are your own plan?

The plan is mine - inspired by the boards - wubbles course guide, eyries success last year and results of other friends .

I’ll e-mail you the the pace plan . My buddy was originally pacing another guy but offered to drop back a wave to run with us as well and use our plan of action.

Another friend followed the pacer last year and was burnt out by half way - they were running very even spilts.

Kellygirl

Bluesquare wrote: »

The plan is mine - inspired by the boards - wubbles course guide, eyries success last year and results of other friends .

I’ll e-mail you the the pace plan . My buddy was originally pacing another guy but offered to drop back a wave to run with us as well and use our plan of action.

Another friend followed the pacer last year and was burnt out by half way - they were running very even spilts.

Oh brilliant. Thanks a million. Did I send you the course specific pace bands? I have them from 3:55 to 4:30 I think it is. Can email them to anybody who wants them.

Yeah I wouldn’t glue myself to pacers for DCM at all but I like the idea of using them loosely, maybe even starting with the 4:10 guys and aim to pass out the 4hr guys. When I did 4:20 I started at a 4:46 pace and eventually overtook the 4:30 guys at about 10 miles and continued on my way.

ewc78

Bluesquare wrote: »

The plan is mine - inspired by the boards - wubbles course guide, eyries success last year and results of other friends .

I’ll e-mail you the the pace plan . My buddy was originally pacing another guy but offered to drop back a wave to run with us as well and use our plan of action.

Another friend followed the pacer last year and was burnt out by half way - they were running very even spilts.

I wouldn't mind having a look at that also if you don't mind? I can PM you my email.

Bluesquare

ewc78 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind having a look at that also if you don't mind? I can PM you my email.

No problem

Kellygirl

By the way, those that have Garmin Connect, have you seen the new feature called Pacepro in the training section? If you upload a route, say the DCM route, and tick whether you want a negative split, easier on hills etc it will create a course specific paceband for you - this will transfer to your watch only if you have the new Fenix 6 and I think it’s being added to the newer watches such as the 245 but obviously you can create your own specific paceband too using it.

Dealerz2.0

Bluesquare wrote: »

No problem

Me too?

Bluesquare

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

Me too?

Pm me your e-mail . It’s a great spreadsheet to mess with if your bored !

skyblue46

Bluesquare wrote: »

I’m also in wave two. I’ve no plan to follow pacers, - a guy in my club is going to pace a few of us to ensure we start slow . I’m not 100% convinced I’ll be aiming for sub 4 yet but if I was my plan is to do first 5k in just under 30 mins and 10k in 58 mins . After the 7 mile mark to ramp up to marathon pace . I have added the extra distance at end into these calculations as well ( 3 sec a km) .

This way if sub 4 isn’t for me at least I still have the chance of a decent race .

I like the idea of starting quite slow but that sub 4 plan is not the best to be honest. If you go from 5k to 10k in 28 minutes that is actually faster than a 3:59:59 pace and it's on the most continuously uphill 5k of the whole route.

Bluesquare

skyblue46 wrote: »

I like the idea of starting quite slow but that sub 4 plan is not the best to be honest. If you go from 5k to 10k in 28 minutes that is actually faster than a 3:59:59 pace and it's on the most continuously uphill 5k of the whole route.

Good to know - I will adjust it for sure not having run Dublin I was trying to base it on all info I had , the plan isn’t set in stone no where near . It’s just a pace spreadsheet that allows you to play around with paces and takes into account the extra distance you run over the 26.2 miles . I like the idea of a slow start even for 2k. It seems that a 58 min 10k is the way forward - put what combination to get there ?

ewc78

Kellygirl wrote: »

By the way, those that have Garmin Connect, have you seen the new feature called Pacepro in the training section? If you upload a route, say the DCM route, and tick whether you want a negative split, easier on hills etc it will create a course specific paceband for you - this will transfer to your watch only if you have the new Fenix 6 and I think it’s being added to the newer watches such as the 245 but obviously you can create your own specific paceband too using it.

That's sound great, I've just bought a 245.
I don't have the DCM route on garmin connect though. How would I go about getting it on file to upload it?

Bluesquare

ewc78 wrote: »

That's sound great, I've just bought a 245.
I don't have the DCM route on garmin connect though. How would I go about getting it on file to upload it?

Exact question I was going to ask ! Thanks K

skyblue46

Bluesquare wrote: »

Good to know - I will adjust it for sure not having run Dublin I was trying to base it on all info I had , the plan isn’t set in stone no where near . It’s just a pace spreadsheet that allows you to play around with paces and takes into account the extra distance you run over the 26.2 miles . I like the idea of a slow start even for 2k. It seems that a 58 min 10k is the way forward - put what combination to get there ?

I think anything between 59 and 60 minutes for 10k is ideal. I'd feel 58 is a tad fast for the first 10k of the route. The rest of the course becomes much more manageable if you come out of the first 11k in a very comfortable place.

sibeen99

Treviso wrote: »

I did a 5k run for this - even though plan said 8-15k race. Can you do a parkrun on that day?

Important to do the race i feel, as the 17M the following day tests you out quite a bit. I suffered a lot for that run

Thanks, I might see where the nearest park run is or if there’s a local race on. So the idea is to run the 17m on tired legs? Sounds like it’s going to be fun!

skyblue46

ewc78 wrote: »

That's sound great, I've just bought a 245.
I don't have the DCM route on garmin connect though. How would I go about getting it on file to upload it?

On mobile....Training > Pro Race > Create > Select a Course > Favourites > Search Running Courses. Then zoom in to Fitzwilliam Square and pick one from the many.