Switch Firmware Discussion

sligeach

World’s First Nintendo Switch Firmware Modification Tool Has Been Revealed

https://nintendosoup.com/worlds-first-nintendo-switch-firmware-modification-tool-has-been-revealed/

https://twitter.com/fail0verflow/status/988445232445378561

CiDeRmAn

I hope they kill it quickly with a patch, last thing the system needs is the possible profits to be made by developers being shrunk due to theft.

Digital Solitude

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I hope they kill it quickly with a patch, last thing the system needs is the possible profits to be made by developers being shrunk due to theft.

They can't from what I've read, it'll take a hardware revision as the hack gives access to bootrom.

Its a flaw within Nvidias Tegra X1 as opposed to a Ninty fault which is something I guess.

Remember a few ago there was news of Mariko, the Switches first hardware revision? It was probably to curb this vulnerability

Little bit more about it on fail0verflow blog:

ShofEL2, a Tegra X1 and Nintendo Switch exploit

ERG89

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I hope they kill it quickly with a patch, last thing the system needs is the possible profits to be made by developers being shrunk due to theft.

Aren't developers already losing money when people change their eShop locations to save themselves a few quid?

Mr E

I'd say the people who switch region to save money are in the VAST minority. Most people will just use the eshop from their own country.

ERG89

OSI wrote: »

I don't think saving a fiver on the odd game is quite the same as paying nothing at all, do you?

No but its still losing money one way or another. I'm sure many notice sales down in other regions but miraculously up in Russia.

Mr E wrote: »

I'd say the people who switch region to save money are in the VAST minority. Most people will just use the eshop from their own country.

I don't change it cause you never know what might happen with those accounts.

Mr E

ERG89 wrote: »

I don't change it cause you never know what might happen with those accounts.

Region free by design, not by mistake. I don't think anything will happen to past purchases. The worst that will happen is closer parity with the prices in the future.

maximoose

So, this exploit is opening the door to homebrew city?

Mr E

Yep.

Grumpypants

ERG89 wrote: »

No but its still losing money one way or another. I'm sure many notice sales down in other regions but miraculously up in Russia.



I don't change it cause you never know what might happen with those accounts.

I'd rather lose 5% than 100%

CiDeRmAn

On the one hand I would say that if this led to some sort of homebrew activation of proper hdd support, I'd give it a lash, as being able to use a handy pocket 500gb hdd would be a godsend instead of fretting about how much room Wolfenstein II is going to take up and what I have to delete to play it.

Also, if Plex was to be ported.

But on the other hand damage this will do to the Switch market....


But then, on the other hand the bulk of Switch consoles to be owned are yet to be made, so Nintendo have time to block the vulnerability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWGtjqv19ZA

Grassey

In fairness, running Linux on it would be great! Solves the lack of a plex app issue

Mr E

I've split this discussion from the Game News thread to keep it separate.

Digital Solitude

Dolphin would be tidy, all the best Mario Parties on the go

readyletsgo

Digital Solitude wrote: »

Dolphin would be tidy, all the best Mario Parties on the go

Would love dolphin on the switch. I still but games till the end of a systems life, but having dolphin on it too would be great!

Thar_Cian

I'm all for this. A year later and we still can't back up our saves.

CiDeRmAn

A way to play my GC games on the go would be interesting but is there an emulator suitable for running in a Linux ecosystem on the Switch I wonder?

madmoe

readyletsgo wrote: »

Would love dolphin on the switch. I still but games till the end of a systems life, but having dolphin on it too would be great!

For those of us who have no idea what Dolphin is (apart from the Android browser) could you enlighten us?

Thanks,
M

sligeach

Linux on the Nintendo Switch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBCkpEdvqDo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBCkpEdvqDo

Tom Mann Centuria

madmoe wrote: »

For those of us who have no idea what Dolphin is (apart from the Android browser) could you enlighten us?

Thanks,
M

A Gamecube and Wii emulator.

I think this is **** news, I just hope that piracy doesn't grow rampant now and destroy the consoles lifespan

Switch hacked: unpatchable exploit is a security nightmare for Nintendo [Eurogamer]

It'll take some time for a homebrew toolchain to appear that produces code that can run natively on Horizon - the name of the Switch OS - and right now, unless you're really keen on Switch Linux, there's not much utility for the exploit until the arrival of custom firmwares later on down the road. But as fail0verflow mentions in its blog, the hack will likely be used for running pirate software at some point. Unfettered access to game software also allows for modifications to take place, potentially compromising the integrity of Switch's online gaming environment. So on the one hand, this exploit delivers Linux and potentially opens up Switch as one hell of an emulation portable - but on the other, Nintendo faces a security nightmare in preventing piracy and keeping modders and cheats out of its online gaming environment.

readyletsgo

madmoe wrote: »

readyletsgo wrote: »

Would love dolphin on the switch. I still but games till the end of a systems life, but having dolphin on it too would be great!

For those of us who have no idea what Dolphin is (apart from the Android browser) could you enlighten us?

Thanks,
M

Near perfect emulator for the GameCube on pc. Also Wii with ordinary controllers like Xbox or with the 'dolphin' usb sensor bar.

CiDeRmAn

Deleted User wrote: »

Switch hacked: unpatchable exploit is a security nightmare for Nintendo [Eurogamer]

Sounds like a recipe for another delay in getting the online service for the Switch

Inviere

Disappointing after just over a year of life, but that was the risk in using off the shelf components for the Switch, particularly ones like the Tegra X1 which were already very well documented hardware wise. Nintendo could have chosen to use something more bespoke, but the costs of ownership for the end user would have obviously increased.

As for how damaging this will be, we'll have to wait and see. The fact that someone can 3d print a little doo-hickey to short the required pins, doesn't bode well....the easier this is to do, the more people will do it (see R4 cards for example). The only hope Ninty have here is to thoroughly invest in thier online service, and tie EVERYTHING Switch related in to it. That's mean the VC, online play, game patches/updates, everything will need the console to go online...and from there, Ninty can lock out any Switch that's been exploited. That's at least incentivise people to keep their console stock.

Another method (if viable, I'm not too sure) is to use future firmwares to reject installation on a compromised system. That'd mean newer games just can't be played very easily on exploited consoles.

All that being said though, because this is a bootrom exploit, and step 1 in the chain of trust, full control of the console has been achieved. Once that happens, there's ways around pretty much everything.

chrislad

The best way for Nintendo to combat this, as others have said, is to bring the Switch OS up to scratch. While some people will always pirate games, I'm at a stage in my life where I don't need to, thankfully, but if I could hack my machine to get something like a Virtual Console and backing up saves, then I'm listening. Nintendo need to communicate more and let people know if these features are coming. It's been over a year since the launch. I understand they had to launch early, but we are past that point now.

WithTheRanks

If it's a hardware security flaw, I wonder if this will push them towards making a "Switch XL" type updated system

CiDeRmAn

I've said it before but the bulk of Switch consoles to be bought have yet to be sold.
Best thing for Nintendo to do is a internal update of some kind that will make all future systems resilient to this exploit, meaning only those in circulation now will be vulnerable.
Yes, there will be those devices that will be no doubt gaining in value as we speak, as the owners can run every game currently released, but a hardware update coupled with firmware updates and online checks could limit the damage done to the brand.

I don't buy the notion that most people will be installing Plex, Netflix and the benefits of off-Switch save storage, people are going to use this to steal income from the publishers and developers, and kill the console as a result.

super_furry

Looks like we’ll be getting a hardware change sooner than expected. Wonder if they’ll go with a form factor change too - Switch Lite or something similar - or if they’ll go down the Xbox 360 road and just change the internals.

I love my Switch and would have no problem buying a new one for online play if I could open up my original to Dolphin emulation.

Tom Mann Centuria

Could they update the joycons to not play nicely with any hacked machine, or am I being thick (this is highly likely).

maximoose

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Could they update the joycons to not play nicely with any hacked machine, or am I being thick (this is highly likely).

From what I understand, no - because..

Inviere wrote: »

this is a bootrom exploit, and step 1 in the chain of trust, full control of the console has been achieved. Once that happens, there's ways around pretty much everything.

They can't update firmware to fix this

Tom Mann Centuria

maximoose wrote: »

From what I understand, no - because..



They can't update firmware to fix this

Ah I thought maybe the joycons had their own firmware and maybe then wouldn't have been part of the console that had been exploited. Thought I was probably being too simplistic.

Chardee MacDennis

am i right in saying if you want to run any of this homebrew you'll need to use the little dongle that was used to cause the buffer overflow? If so, I really think (and hope) that will be a deterrent for some people...

Ste-

Chardee MacDennis wrote: »

am i right in saying if you want to run any of this homebrew you'll need to use the little dongle that was used to cause the buffer overflow? If so, I really think (and hope) that will be a deterrent for some people...

I think you need that to short the pins, then a specific button press to enter usb recovery then connect to a pc to run the payload. Do I have that right ?

Chardee MacDennis

With this thing from what i can tell



I'm just not sure that now they have access to the bootloader, could they create a soft exploit like the R4 which would open up more people to homebrew.

Ste-

Chardee MacDennis wrote: »

With this thing from what i can tell



I'm just not sure that now they have access to the bootloader, could they create a soft exploit like the R4 which would open up more people to homebrew.

You can use that or any wire once the pins are shorted afaik.
With this and you'll see soon they have CFW which will open up everything ala PSP.

readyletsgo

super_furry wrote: »

Looks like we’ll be getting a hardware change sooner than expected. Wonder if they’ll go with a form factor change too - Switch Lite or something similar - or if they’ll go down the Xbox 360 road and just change the internals.

I love my Switch and would have no problem buying a new one for online play if I could open up my original to Dolphin emulation.

This.

I would absolutely buy a new upgraded fancier Switch and keep my original for last gens emulators if possible. Dolphin FTW.

CastorTroy

Seeing that picture all I can think is that Johnny 5 would be happy at "No Disassemble".

I do laugh at all the people talking about looking forward to doing it so they can back up saves and all. Like we're suddenly to believe everyone wants Linux on their Switch? Majority will be hacking for one main reason.

Ste-

CastorTroy wrote: »

Majority will be hacking for one main reason.

Emulators!!

Digital Solitude

CastorTroy wrote: »

Seeing that picture all I can think is that Johnny 5 would be happy at "No Disassemble".

I do laugh at all the people talking about looking forward to doing it so they can back up saves and all. Like we're suddenly to believe everyone wants Linux on their Switch? Majority will be hacking for one main reason.

For sure piracy is what has people tickled by it, I think the Switch doomsayers are jumping the gun though. It took several years for R4s on the 3DS to emerge and most of them could only emulate the DS funtionality. A lot of them were quickly blocked by updates and you had to wait a few weeks for a new workaround. If you card was in your machine when you updated it, you needed a new card.

Even now, most cards cant play 3DS games, so to pirate them, you need to install CFW, then a program, then install them directly to the device, can't be installed on the SD iirc. The newer 3DS's can't be easily hacked without access to an older model with CFW installed.

While its not a great sign that its been cracked so early, there's a new SoC that won't contain the flaw on the way, if the hack requires any technical nitty gritty (like stacking and naming files and folders meticulously) then most casual users wont do it, and I'd be confident in Ninty holding off R4s after seeing how they did so much better from DS to 3DS.

Inviere

CastorTroy wrote: »

I do laugh at all the people talking about looking forward to doing it so they can back up saves and all. Like we're suddenly to believe everyone wants Linux on their Switch? Majority will be hacking for one main reason.

Indeed, but to play devils advocate for a moment, €60 for Doom when it can be got for €6 on PC? Sorry, and I know that's just one example, but Nintendo's pricing model is a HUGE incentive for pirates. Personally, I don't condone piracy as I believe in the end, it takes money from the pockets of those who deserve it, but when it's a veritable gulf between prices for the same game, it's only going to end one way. Nintendo, while arguably the best at what they do, need to seriously cop on when it comes to software pricing.

Digital Solitude wrote: »

While its not a great sign that its been cracked so early, there's a new SoC that won't contain the flaw on the way, if the hack requires any technical nitty gritty (like stacking and naming files and folders meticulously) then most casual users wont do it, and I'd be confident in Ninty holding off R4s after seeing how they did so much better from DS to 3DS.

Once the Atmosphere CFW is released, it's going to be very, very simple. With complete control gained over the system, it won't be long before you'll be able to load up a USB stick with games, & the Switch will be able to see them & load them with the click of a button. As for the new hardware revision, it's a new CPU that's been described within the newer firmwares. I don't think it's on shelves yet, but will be very soon. Then the hunt will undoubtedly begin for a vulnerability in that new hardware.

madmoe

Inviere wrote: »

Once the Atmosphere CFW is released, it's going to be very, very simple. With complete control gained over the system, it won't be long before you'll be able to load up a USB stick with games, & the Switch will be able to see them & load them with the click of a button.

:eek::eek::eek:

CiDeRmAn

Honest to god lads and lassies, this has the scope of killing the system completely.

Inviere

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Honest to god lads and lassies, this has the scope of killing the system completely.

I can't see it myself. Best case is any modified Switch won't be able to go online, which will hopefully be a large incentive for people should Ninty knock it outta the park when they eventually launch the service.

I do believe Ninty have fecked up though, royally. To think that we could see things like Retroarch running on the Switch, before the VC even goes live, is as massive a boo boo as Nintendo could have made. The VC is a service that the bloody Wii had, it seriously shouldn't have taken this long to see it on the Switch - especially with the resources Ninty have.

banie01

Ste- wrote: »

Emulators!!

I don't use Switch but I do use Nvidia Shield with the same chipset.
Emulators are a really massive plus on the Tegra Chipset.
They will add hugely to to the Switch if they are successfully ported.

sligeach

Behind the scenes with the hackers who unlocked the Nintendo Switch
"The best way to get a chip security audited is to put it in a game console"

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/04/behind-the-scenes-with-the-hackers-who-unlocked-the-nintendo-switch/

iamtony

I used to jailbreak my iphones then the benefits of updating the phone and loosing the jailbreak made me just update.
If it's a similar story with this, the majority won't bother in my opinion.

Inviere

iamtony wrote: »

I used to jailbreak my iphones then the benefits of updating the phone and loosing the jailbreak made me just update.
If it's a similar story with this, the majority won't bother in my opinion.

For many many people though, there's no greater benefit than 'free' games. I wouldn't be surprised if many buy a second Switch for online use, and keep a modded one for piracy.

The_B_Man

Inviere wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if many buy a second Switch for online use, and keep a modded one for piracy.

I'd do that meself if I could figure out the best way to get a low firmware console brand new.

If there's a way around the current paper clip method and a permanent soft mod then I'll defo get one in any firmware.

Piracy is one thing but I just REALLY want emulators on the switch!! Especially snes and N64. Dolphin running smoothly would also be legendary!

Inviere

The_B_Man wrote: »

I'd do that meself if I could figure out the best way to get a low firmware console brand new.

If there's a way around the current paper clip method and a permanent soft mod then I'll defo get one in any firmware.

Any current Switch out in the wild today is vulnerable, so you'd be a buying a new one for online use, and keeping your current one for modding. Once the Atmosphere CFW is released, the floodgates will open.

Piracy is one thing but I just REALLY want emulators on the switch!! Especially snes and N64. Dolphin running smoothly would also be legendary!

Same. The Switch is going to become an incredible, incredible little machine for emulation.