VW Neo (eGolf replacement)

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

https://insideevs.com/electric-vw-hatch-named-id-3/

Potentially an X included for SUV

They have changed the logo as well, seen that last week....

Same as BMW and Hyundai.

Mike9832

VW being shown the finger lol 😂

https://www.electrive.com/2019/02/21/volkswagen-battery-production-blocked-by-competition/

At the mercy of the Koreans

If SK are clever they can use this position too

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

VW being shown the finger lol ��

https://www.electrive.com/2019/02/21/volkswagen-battery-production-blocked-by-competition/

I wonder how reliable that is. Particularly this bit:

"LG Chem is against it and threatens “to stop supplying if VW enters production with SK Innovation,” and this possibly immediately"

That doesn't make much sense. That's not how OEM contracts work.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

I wonder how reliable that is. Particularly this bit:

"LG Chem is against it and threatens “to stop supplying if VW enters production with SK Innovation,” and this possibly immediately"

That doesn't make much sense. That's not how OEM contracts work.

Its translated

Comes from here

http://m.manager-magazin.de

unkel

Yeah I got that. Here's the original bit:

"Die Koreaner drohten damit, unter Umständen nicht mehr zu liefern, wenn VW mit SK Innovation in die Produktion einsteige. Und das möglicherweise ab sofort. Das berichten Manager, die mit den Verhandlungen vertraut sind"

In other words, hearsay. No sources quoted.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Yeah I got that. Here's the original bit:

"Die Koreaner drohten damit, unter Umständen nicht mehr zu liefern, wenn VW mit SK Innovation in die Produktion einsteige. Und das möglicherweise ab sofort. Das berichten Manager, die mit den Verhandlungen vertraut sind"

In other words, hearsay. No sources quoted.

Just like the VW 48 billion battery supply contract then

No details

No breakdown

Rumour seems legit to me, loads of talk of LG strong arming VW since October, they don't seem happy at all.

VW supposedly have told LG to produce a certain amount of batteries by x time frame , but not promised to buy it all

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Rumour seems legit to me

Could very well be. The publication is a serious magazine part part of the same group as der Spiegel

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

Just like the VW 48 billion battery supply contract then

No details

No breakdown

Rumour seems legit to me, loads of talk of LG strong arming VW since October, they don't seem happy at all.

VW supposedly have told LG to produce a certain amount of batteries by x time frame , but not promised to buy it all

What rumours? I haven't seen anything online.....

Who posted that VW told LG to produce batteries and wouldn't pay for them? link?

The 48 billion was a tender. Most tenders are over a 3 or a 5 year period.

VW release a tender and then people bid on it, before the tender is awarded it will go via a legal review on both sides. If they don't come to agreement then they dont enter into partnership.

VW "supposedly" telling LG is not a legal process and would be rejected by both sides. VW already have said they have awarded the tender, in this case both sides have agreed to the legal T&C's already. If LG back out of the process then they are open to VW suing them for breach of contract.

Also if VW plan to build their own batteries then what can LG do if they have signed up to the tender? if they slow prodcution then VW can sue, they stop production then VW can sue.

Of course if VW have agreed to a certain amount of batteries to buy from LG and don't buy them then LG can sue....

KCross

Who knows whats in the legal agreements between VW and LG. There could be non-compete clauses or targets or anything that we dont know about. They will be complex agreements and if LG think VW are pullig a fast one they will flex their muscles. VW are big but so are LG.

This isnt the first report of issues in this agreement either. There were talks of LG asking for price hikes too last year.

This is probably one of the first times in a very long time that VW is dependent on external suppliers for such an expensive part of its product. They might be realising they are not in the driving seat as much as they used to be.

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Also if VW plan to build their own batteries then what can LG do if they have signed up to the tender? if they slow prodcution then VW can sue, they stop production then VW can sue.

On that point, I dont remember VW ever saying they were going to build their own batteries. In fact, I think they said the exact opposite which is that they dont have the expertise and are sub contracting that out to LG et al.

The battery plants VW are investing in, as I understand it, are assembly plants where they take in the cells from LG and make the packs but the cells and the patents/tech around those are not owned by VW and they cannot just decide to build their own cells.

Have you seen otherwise?

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

On that point, I dont remember VW ever saying they were going to build their own batteries. In fact, I think they said the exact opposite which is that they dont have the expertise and are sub contracting that out to LG et al.

The battery plants VW are investing in, as I understand it, are assembly plants where they take in the cells from LG and make the packs but the cells and the patents/tech around those are not owned by VW and they cannot just decide to build their own cells.

Have you seen otherwise?

I think the German government mentioned about building factories for batteries. See link below.


I think at one stage it was mentioned VW might but as per your post maybe they pulled out of it. Similar to what they do with the combustion engine and partnership with Bosch. Might as well do the same with electric, just build strategic partnerships

They only mention of batteries I seen was at the car reviews when they said they had sourced the batteries. Was it mentioned 2 suppliers?



https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-fund-late-entry-into-battery-cell-production/a-46271028

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think the German government mentioned about building factories for batteries. See link below.


I think at one stage it was mentioned VW might but as per your post maybe they pulled out of it. Similar to what they do with the combustion engine and partnership with Bosch. Might as well do the same with electric, just build strategic partnerships

They only mention of batteries I seen was at the car reviews when they said they had sourced the batteries. Was it mentioned 2 suppliers?



https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-fund-late-entry-into-battery-cell-production/a-46271028

I had read some similar reports of France and German governments uniting to create cell manufacturing plants and they specifically mentioned reducing their exposure to South Korean manufacturers.

The Germans dont like being beholden to anyone so I think they will proceed with that plan but thats going to take some time (not in time for Neo). They cant just start producing their own and infringe on LG,SKI patents.... they have to develop their own tech and prove it out.

You could be looking at 3-5yrs+ for that and they are probably weighing up the R&D cost of that against holding out for solid-state batteries.... tough call to make if they get a cell to market and then solid state comes out and blows it away.

LG are in the driving seat here, I'd say.

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

I had read some similar reports of France and German governments uniting to create cell manufacturing plants and they specifically mentioned reducing their exposure to South Korean manufacturers.

The Germans dont like being beholden to anyone so I think they will proceed with that plan but thats going to take some time (not in time for Neo). They cant just start producing their own and infringe on LG,SKI patents.... they have to develop their own tech and prove it out.

You could be looking at 3-5yrs+ for that and they are probably weighing up the R&D cost of that against holding out for solid-state batteries.... tough call to make if they get a cell to market and then solid state comes out and blows it away.

LG are in the driving seat here, I'd say.

VW have already invested in a solid state battery company with a 5 year roadmap to move to solid state. It would make more sense to start now and concentrate on solid state.



It would make sense then the tender was for 5 years, at the end of those 5 years VW hope to move to solid state, they haventbought the company, only invested in it so it would be standalone and would probably be easier for it to get European grants than VW

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

VW have already invested in a solid state battery company with a 5 year roadmap to move to solid state. It would make more sense to start now and concentrate on solid state.



It would make sense then the tender was for 5 years, at the end of those 5 years VW hope to move to solid state, they haventbought the company, only invested in it so it would be standalone and would probably be easier for it to get European grants than VW

Solid state is the holy grail for everyone. Nearly every car manufacturer has some investment in solid state. Tesla just bought Maxwell which has similar tech. Even Toyota, Dyson etc all have solid-state investments.

VW's problem, according to the article, is what will it do between now and then. It is dependent on the current tech, which it doesnt own/control.

I'm sure it will get sorted but at what cost is the thing.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

VW have already invested in a solid state battery company with a 5 year roadmap to move to solid state. It would make more sense to start now and concentrate on solid state.



It would make sense then the tender was for 5 years, at the end of those 5 years VW hope to move to solid state, they haventbought the company, only invested in it so it would be standalone and would probably be easier for it to get European grants than VW

Solid state is further than 5 years away. Possible a lot further. You’d expect to see them in small scale devices like phone and laptops long before they are scaled up to cars

IrishHomer

I heard on the radio news today that some Irish students have invented a new nano technology that makes electric batteries 3 or 4 times more efficient than current. Exciting times ahead it's just impossible when to pull the trigger for an EV

Mike9832

Shefwedfan wrote: »

VW have already invested in a solid state battery company with a 5 year roadmap to move to solid state. It would make more sense to start now and concentrate on solid state.



It would make sense then the tender was for 5 years, at the end of those 5 years VW hope to move to solid state, they haventbought the company, only invested in it so it would be standalone and would probably be easier for it to get European grants than VW

Yeah VW in fairness have eggs in alot of baskets

They are so big they have to

Bosch deciding not to go into battery business was a big blow to them up I think

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

Yeah VW in fairness have eggs in alot of baskets

They are so big they have to

Bosch deciding not to go into battery business was a big blow to them up I think

You do realize how big Bosch are? if they want to go into it they will just buy someone


If they wanted, could probably buy Tesla and flog off the car sales to VW :P

Mike9832

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You do realize how big Bosch are? if they want to go into it they will just buy someone


If they wanted, could probably buy Tesla and flog off the car sales to VW :P

They are huge, but even they didn't think batteries were worth the risk financially

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

They are huge, but even they didn't think batteries were worth the risk financially

They don't have to, as I said if they want to start a battery business tomorrow they will just go out and buy someone and suddenly they are in the battery business

At the moment the sales of combustion engines versus electric is what percentage Worldwide?



Combustion engines will still be around in 30 years times and will still need parts. Even if all the government stop selling new combustion engines they can't just throw them off the roads and that mean parts...parts that Bosch supply.....



Those rumours you mentioned, any links?

pdpmur

Reported recently on drivingelectric.com:

"There's no glovebox either, with the only interior storage space located in the centre console"

Wot???
In a car for the masses???
A big mistake in the making????

Shefwedfan

pdpmur wrote: »

Reported recently on drivingelectric.com:

"There's no glovebox either, with the only interior storage space located in the centre console"

Wot???
In a car for the masses???
A big mistake in the making????

funny I was reading a thread on the motors forum and people are complaining about the 3008 because the glove box is so small....personally the glovebox holds the service book and that is it for me

embraer170

I am not sure if this was posted before but this a pretty interesting video on the VW MEB platform:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRFzmdEQ3sM

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They don't have to, as I said if they want to start a battery business tomorrow they will just go out and buy someone and suddenly they are in the battery business

At the moment the sales of combustion engines versus electric is what percentage Worldwide?



Combustion engines will still be around in 30 years times and will still need parts. Even if all the government stop selling new combustion engines they can't just throw them off the roads and that mean parts...parts that Bosch supply.....



Those rumours you mentioned, any links?

You realise that Bosch have seen the writing on the wall and sold their alternator and starter business a few years ago already?

That might be just one division but it’s a big one and a sign of how they see the future.

They are not waiting around for the wind-down of ICE.

And if it was so easy to buy into the battery business VW would have done it.

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

You realise that Bosch have seen the writing on the wall and sold their alternator and starter business a few years ago already?

That might be just one division but it’s a big one and a sign of how they see the future.

They are not waiting around for the wind-down of ICE.

And if it was so easy to buy into the battery business VW would have done it.

A question was asked, I answered it

Why would VW buy into battery business when they can just partner with someone?

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A question was asked, I answered it

Why would VW buy into battery business when they can just partner with someone?

You were suggesting that because VW and Bosch are big that they can just write cheques and it’ll all be grand. I think you put too much faith in the idea that big companies can just write cheques.

If VW could make batteries cheaper than LG etc, they would. They are partnering because they have to, not because it’s the right decision for them financially.

liamog

The partnership model is pretty standard, Tesla and Panasonic for instance

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

You were suggesting that because VW and Bosch are big that they can just write cheques and it’ll all be grand. I think you put too much faith in the idea that big companies can just write cheques.

If VW could make batteries cheaper than LG etc, they would. They are partnering because they have to, not because it’s the right decision for them financially.

All large corporations use partnership instead of buying, loads of reasons...VW make cars so why would they want to make batteries?

Charger network, get a partner and let them roll it out, do what your good at and partner with someone who is excellent at their job

Companies don’t partner because they have too, in makes sense to partner and always will.....

it was posted as some huge failing Bosch haven’t gone into batteries, what’s this based on? Market for BEV is tiny at the moment compared to what other business Bosch are doing

Show me a case when a huge company hasn’t bought a smaller one to advance? Peugeot buying Opel, VW buying Skoda etc etc etc...it was coincidence that when VW released a tender for batteries the value of it was bigger than Tesla....

Shefwedfan

No news on the Crozz from what I can see, hopefully at Geneva car show

samih

Car makers are really car assemblers these days. They get assemblies like the dashboard, front subframe with suspension and engine attached made somewhere offsite and then just bolt it together at the assembly plant.

VW doesn't make diesel fuel injection bits or seats. Some supplier specializes and makes them. Same with pistons, valves, thermostats.

BEV battery pack is the same. Assemble components made by supplier in a casing. Let the supplier LG perfect their process using their expertise.