Explain why my missus is fighting with me.

wexie

Squatter wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, Christianity is right! Unlikely I'll grant you, but perhaps it is!

I think there's an episode of Southpark based on this where Cartman realizes that if he (as an atheist) is wrong he's well screwed and if his friends are wrong (with the various religions) then they'll be no worse off....

Something to keep in mind

iamtony

Squatter wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, Christianity is right! Unlikely I'll grant you, but perhaps it is!

In which case, I presume that you'd feel a right b0llix to have deprived your kids of an opportunity to get into the fasttrack queue for the next life?

So it's far better to give them the opportunity to reject religion for themselves when they arrive at adulthood rather than to arrogantly presuppose that they'll share your views on the subject!

So why not just do the baptism/communion/confirmation thing and then walk away and allow them to exercise their own free will.

guess I'll have to sign them up to all the other religions aswell, just incase.

wexie

iamtony wrote: »

guess I'll have to sign them up to all the other religions aswell, just incase.

that's a bit of a quandary though.....because most of the religions will automatically condemn you for following a different one...:D

They could end up timesharing in many different hells :eek:

Avatar MIA

iamtony wrote: »

guess I'll have to sign them up to all the other religions aswell, just incase.

You're all over the place, but at least you know why your wife is fighting with you and have gotten plenty of advice.

mrcheez

iamtony wrote: »

guess I'll have to sign them up to all the other religions aswell, just incase.

Just join a religion all the others borrowed from when they were being conceived, so Zoroastrianism say

Then you can claim to be legit old school

looksee

iamtony wrote: »

this could explain the madness. I don't know why but it bothers me that so many otherwise rational normal humans go along with it all.

Just for the record(I'm the op incase you lost track) my kids are already baptised and communed and one of them confirmed. I went along with it to make life easy for them, not me.

The missus isn't mad religious or anything like it, I don't even know what we were really talking about but it's the first time she ever mentioned actually believing in it all.
I put a few simple questions to her, like the ones in the op, and she got angry and went to bed. That's why I posted it. I'm really trying to understand what is going through her head and anyone else who actually believes in any religion in a modern society.

Maybe she was tired and not in the humour for a full scale discussion. Maybe she hasn't really thought about any of it before and needs time to process what she actually thinks before having to defend it/ debate it. Maybe the ideas are shaking her sense of security in her culture, regardless of whether she actually believes or doesn't believe it. Maybe you should leave it for a bit and see whether she comes back for discussion. And if she doesn't, then leave it go, we have no idea what is going on in her head.

Glass fused light

iamtony wrote: »

this could explain the madness. I don't know why but it bothers me that so many otherwise rational normal humans go along with it all.

Just for the record(I'm the op incase you lost track) my kids are already baptised and communed and one of them confirmed. I went along with it to make life easy for them, not me.

The missus isn't mad religious or anything like it, I don't even know what we were really talking about but it's the first time she ever mentioned actually believing in it all.
I put a few simple questions to her, like the ones in the op, and she got angry and went to bed. That's why I posted it. I'm really trying to understand what is going through her head and anyone else who actually believes in any religion in a modern society.

In your first post the question about why should You feel forced to baptise you and your wife's children is valid personal feeling.
You started off giving reasonable examples for your objection, then started to get bit ranty but then started to question and then directly attack your wife's belief system

iamtony wrote: »

I just don't get it. Its full or hatrid and war and killing in the name or god, how can anyone buy into it?

If this was in the run up to the first or even second baptism, I could kind of understand the discussion and your behavior.

If it is was genuinely the first time you realised she believes, you both need marriage counselling to learn how to communicate.

But IMO as for why she is mad at you

It's late, after 9 at night? it's 10(?) years after the first of a number of religeous events?
You were picking a fight.
You were picking a fight about her parenting.
You were picking a fight about her religious belief.

The fight has nothing to do with what she believes but about what you believe and what you believe she should believe.

She is not fighting with you, you were fighting with her.

iamtony

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You're all over the place, but at least you know why your wife is fighting with you and have gotten plenty of advice.

I'm not sure what you mean by all over the place. If you mean in my beliefs them I'm pretty sure where I stand. It's other people I worry about.
Yes lots of advice thanks for that, and yes it does answer her response I guess, I just can't understand people.

piplip87

iamtony wrote: »

So I've lost all belief in the religion I was born into and then used my own brain to realise its all nonsense to me. Can't understand anyone who follows any religion, Bit that's your own right and I respect it, if not envy it.
My problem is why should I feel forced to baptise my children. Just because I was born into a Catholic family and its just the done thing.
She said she believes in God but I said to her that's fine but how can you believe in a god who will send only Christians who are baptised to heaven and the rest of the world don't get to participate in this.
My belief, if I believed in a god, would be for him/her to accept all good people for the good they have done and felt through there life's not because they prayed or worshipped a particular religion, one that probably incited wars and all that.
No god would force people to worship them! If they are gods and they have a specific criteria to enter heaven why would it include getting baptised and all that. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
Did gandhi not make it because he didn't pray to jesus? Is there a reasonable conversation to be had here or is it just going to be a bunch of you quoting a book? Do you want your religion questioned?

Do suicide bombers go to hell because they were brain washed by bad humans?

I just don't get it. Its full or hatrid and war and killing in the name or god, how can anyone buy into it?

Same craic here. You have to look at whole primary school system. When you child is in second class so much time is dedicated to preparation for Holy Communion. Your child will more than likely be sat doing homework or even out of the room for all of this. Kids pick up on differences quite quickly and it could lead to bullying.

The exact same will happen for confirmation. I would just get them baptized and let them make up their own minds about attending Mass Etc.

iamtony

Glass fused light wrote: »

In your first post the question about why should You feel forced to baptise you and your wife's children is valid personal feeling.
You started off giving reasonable examples for your objection, then started to get bit ranty but then started to question and then directly attack your wife's belief system


If this was in the run up to the first or even second baptism, I could kind of understand the discussion and your behavior.

If it is was genuinely the first time you realised she believes, you both need marriage counselling to learn how to communicate.

But IMO as for why she is mad at you

It's late, after 9 at night? it's 10(?) years after the first of a number of religeous events?
You were picking a fight.
You were picking a fight about her parenting.
You were picking a fight about her religious belief.

The fight has nothing to do with what she believes but about what you believe and what you believe she should believe.

She is not fighting with you, you were fighting with her.

yeah I'll admit to most of that ha, there was alcohol involved also

wexie

iamtony wrote: »

yeah I'll admit to most of that ha, there was alcohol involved also

.......

Sounds like perhaps an apology might be in order

Glass fused light

iamtony wrote: »

yeah I'll admit to most of that ha, there was alcohol involved also

And yet you are posting on here this morning as if she was the reason the fight started?

iamtony wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by all over the place. If you mean in my beliefs them I'm pretty sure where I stand. It's other people I worry about.
Yes lots of advice thanks for that, and yes it does answer her response I guess, I just can't understand peoplemy wife.

IMO this ^^ is a very demeaning attitude. She is entitled to hold her beliefs and has a right to object to being 'evangelised' on whatever you believe in.

Prehaps, until you can come to terms with your wife holding different beliefs, you need figure out a respectful way of discussing and agreeing how to parent your childern.

smacl

wexie wrote: »

TL/DR : It's a discussion worthwhile having with your mrs but it's also a discussion to be had with a lot of patience, respect and understanding

I'd say it would have been a discussion worth having before starting a family with someone in the first place. You'll invariably have strong differences of opinion on parenting as kids grow up, but things like what religion you're planning on raising your kids should be figured out well in advance.

Baptism is the first stage of raising someone as a Christian. If you're not happy with that, it is certainly something worth discussing in depth with your missus now. I'm guessing the attitude, 'sure just go with it, it makes no difference to you', is not the case or you wouldn't have posted here in the first place. Making a personal sacrifice like this grudgingly without discussion could just as easily sow a seed of antipathy in your relationship. You can only start from where you're at, so maybe talk through how you both want to raise the kids long term and agree a plan, which will no doubt have some compromises on both sides. Raising a family involves a bunch of compromises, which should be made equally by both sides. Baptism could well be one you'll end up making now, but if it is something you feel strongly about, its worth having the discussion.

Nick Park wrote: »

If you don't believe in God, then letting your child get baptised is a meaningless ceremony. It won't harm your child, nor will it help them. So it's essentially no different from heaps of other meaningless stuff we do. So the cost to you of letting your wife have her way is minimal.

I'd agree with you if the OP said they were indifferent to religion, but their attitude is that it is 'full or hatred and war and killing in the name or god, how can anyone buy into it?'. Preparing to raise your child in a tradition you display open antipathy towards is no small thing and should not be treated lightly. It may end up being a necessary compromise but it is hardly a small one.

smacl

wexie wrote: »

But if there's one thing I noticed is that there are a lot of atheists out there that are incredibly disrespectful to other people's religion and choices.

Fair enough, but if you look through any period of history you'll note that religious people aren't exactly tolerant of other peoples religious beliefs either. I'd say in terms of total numbers slaughtered for the sake of religious intolerance, atheists have a fair bit of catching up to do

Squatter

iamtony wrote: »

guess I'll have to sign them up to all the other religions aswell, just incase.

No you just sign up to one. Then, even if it's the wrong one, you'll get a free pass for having tried.

It's the ones who were so confident in the superiority of the human mind over every other force in the universe (or universes) that they didn't bother joining any of them who will end up with major egg on their faces, come judgement day!

GarIT

Quazzie wrote: »

I'd say 99% of atheists in this country were baptised so that statement is a load of nonsense.

I didn’t say baptism makes you stay Catholic, I said once it’s done you can’t get rid of it.

My local church when I was a child holds a record that I was baptised, no matter what I do they will not remove that record. I understand their argument that it is a historical record and not necessarily a reflection of my current beliefs but I much rather that wasn’t there. I have a lot of problems with the RCC, so I fear someday if I ever achieve something or even just great grandchildren are curious and people look me up that they will see me associated with the RCC.

I am deeply ashamed that I was baptised, I am ashamed that there could be any connection between the RCC and I. I wish I could remove that association but I can’t. So yes being baptised is exactly like getting a tattoo on a child that cant consent to it.

iamtony

Squatter wrote: »

No you just sign up to one. Then, even if it's the wrong one, you'll get a free pass for having tried.

It's the ones who were so confident in the superiority of the human mind over every other force in the universe (or universes) that they didn't bother joining any of them who will end up with major egg on their faces, come judgement day!

OK. I've just started my own religion it's called iamtonyism. Pearly Gates here I come! Damn this brain god gave me with the ability to question his very existence in the name of free will.
I feel sorry for all the creatures that aren't human and couldn't join a religion if they wanted to. Are these not worthy either because we have the ability to talk and they don't?

GarIT

Swanner wrote: »

Interesting that you give the baptismal ceremony so much validity and credence.

I don’t necessarily know what is the correct belief, I find it incredibly unlikely there is a god but if they is I believe they must be a deeply evil being for creating such a horrible world.

If Catholics are correct and god is real then I wish I was never baptised. If they are wrong and god is not real then the RCC is an organisation that is also deeply evil and I would not want to be associated with it anyway.

coffee_cake

I couldn't disagree with nick park's response any more. Signing up your child into a particular religion is a big deal and i imagine any of the 'just go along with it' folk would have as much of an issue with it if it were any other religion. particularly as the historical record is there forever.
Perpetuating it as 'it's just easier' makes it harder for everyone else facing education barriers and the like.
It is not meaningless, and not being a member of a religion is not fair grounds to disrespect them and what they believe in just because it's not a religion. It should be a considered and deliberate choice, not the status quo and being mocked if you don't go along with it

iamtony

looksee wrote: »

Maybe she was tired and not in the humour for a full scale discussion. Maybe she hasn't really thought about any of it before and needs time to process what she actually thinks before having to defend it/ debate it. Maybe the ideas are shaking her sense of security in her culture, regardless of whether she actually believes or doesn't believe it. Maybe you should leave it for a bit and see whether she comes back for discussion. And if she doesn't, then leave it go, we have no idea what is going on in her head.

Its water under the bridge now. I don't think it will be ever mentioned again. It just bugged me that she though the route to heaven included baptism and organised religion. Just for the record, there is somewhere in my brain that can see a possibility of a higher power, be it mother nature or the universe itself but its definitely not a church on a tiny planet in a gigantic universe with billions of other planets.

Avatar MIA

iamtony wrote: »

OK. I've just started my own religion it's called iamtonyism. Pearly Gates here I come! Damn this brain god gave me with the ability to question his very existence in the name of free will.
I feel sorry for all the creatures that aren't human and couldn't join a religion if they wanted to. Are these not worthy either because we have the ability to talk and they don't?

Is this a sly thread to trot out your amazing and original thoughts as to why there is no god. Is the wife back talking to you yet?

Edgarfrndly

The kids could always get baptised when they are adults, if they choose to. At least then it would be an informed decision made by them alone. I can see the complexities of marriage at work here, and the compromises that go with it.

Personally, I would never have my kids baptised. Especially not into the Catholic church, given its history in this country. But it all boils down how strongly you feel about it. If it's something that only mildly irritates you, then I'd just let her have her day. But if it's something you want to take a principled stand against, then make yourself heard.

Mancomb Seepgood

bluewolf wrote: »

I couldn't disagree with nick park's response any more. Signing up your child into a particular religion is a big deal and i imagine any of the 'just go along with it' folk would have as much of an issue with it if it were any other religion. particularly as the historical record is there forever.
Perpetuating it as 'it's just easier' makes it harder for everyone else facing education barriers and the like.
It is not meaningless, and not being a member of a religion is not fair grounds to disrespect them and what they believe in just because it's not a religion. It should be a considered and deliberate choice, not the status quo and being mocked if you don't go along with it

I think what Nick was saying that the matter of baptising your children (or not) is a matter which a couple needs to discuss and if necessary, come to some sort of compromise on.My personal view is that baptism holds no meaning in of itself, but if it's important to the OP's wife then he needs to consider that.Particularly given that they've been married for a few years and already have children which have been baptised and through the other sacraments.

The education system and baptism barrier is a whole other different story.

wexie

smacl wrote: »

Fair enough, but if you look through any period of history you'll note that religious people aren't exactly tolerant of other peoples religious beliefs either. I'd say in terms of total numbers slaughtered for the sake of religious intolerance, atheists have a fair bit of catching up to do

I dunno man, if that's where you want to set the bar.....

The point I was trying to make is that you can't go about being disrespectful of someone's beliefs (whatever they may be) and then bemoan the fact you're not getting a meaningful discussion out of them.

smacl

GarIT wrote: »

My local church when I was a child holds a record that I was baptised, no matter what I do they will not remove that record. I understand their argument that it is a historical record and not necessarily a reflection of my current beliefs but I much rather that wasn’t there.

A bit OT, and just a thought, but that sounds very much like personal data. I wonder if, by refusing to delete such a record at your request, the church is in breach of the new GDPR legislation? So far as I'm aware, as of next month, every organisation in the EU can only hold your personal information on file with your explicit consent.

wexie

smacl wrote: »

A bit OT, and just a thought, but that sounds very much like personal data. I wonder if, by refusing to delete such a record at your request, the church is in breach of the new GDPR legislation? So far as I'm aware, as of next month, every organisation in the EU can only hold your personal information on file with your explicit consent.

There's an interesting thought.....

Mancomb Seepgood

smacl wrote: »

A bit OT, and just a thought, but that sounds very much like personal data. I wonder if, by refusing to delete such a record at your request, the church is in breach of the new GDPR legislation? So far as I'm aware, as of next month, every organisation in the EU can only hold your personal information on file with your explicit consent.

That would be covered by the need for legitimate administration of church affairs.The church would need a record that a person was baptised in order to carry out it's affairs (if GarIT decided that he wanted to get married in a Catholic church,for example).It would also greatly effect geneology if such records could be deleted.

That doesn't give a church the right to harvest non-essential information or pass it on to third parties, though.

smacl

wexie wrote: »

I dunno man, if that's where you want to set the bar.....

The point I was trying to make is that you can't go about being disrespectful of someone's beliefs (whatever they may be) and then bemoan the fact you're not getting a meaningful discussion out of them.

Cuts both ways though, particularly if the OP has a major problem with those beliefs. I'm guessing if he'd married a Muslim woman or a Scientologist and he was objecting to the child being brought up in that tradition, he'd be getting a bit more sympathy here. Either way, it sounds like something they need to talk through on a more gentle footing. When you marry someone from a different tradition, these are the hurdles you have to get across.

Squatter

iamtony wrote: »

OK. I've just started my own religion it's called iamtonyism. Pearly Gates here I come! Damn this brain god gave me with the ability to question his very existence in the name of free will.
I feel sorry for all the creatures that aren't human and couldn't join a religion if they wanted to. Are these not worthy either because we have the ability to talk and they don't?

Have you found a woman foolish enough to breed with you yet?

wexie

smacl wrote: »

Cuts both ways though, particularly if the OP has a major problem with those beliefs.

You'll get no argument from me there