Explain why my missus is fighting with me.

iamtony

So I've lost all belief in the religion I was born into and then used my own brain to realise its all nonsense to me. Can't understand anyone who follows any religion, Bit that's your own right and I respect it, if not envy it.
My problem is why should I feel forced to baptise my children. Just because I was born into a Catholic family and its just the done thing.
She said she believes in God but I said to her that's fine but how can you believe in a god who will send only Christians who are baptised to heaven and the rest of the world don't get to participate in this.
My belief, if I believed in a god, would be for him/her to accept all good people for the good they have done and felt through there life's not because they prayed or worshipped a particular religion, one that probably incited wars and all that.
No god would force people to worship them! If they are gods and they have a specific criteria to enter heaven why would it include getting baptised and all that. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
Did gandhi not make it because he didn't pray to jesus? Is there a reasonable conversation to be had here or is it just going to be a bunch of you quoting a book? Do you want your religion questioned?

Do suicide bombers go to hell because they were brain washed by bad humans?

I just don't get it. Its full or hatrid and war and killing in the name or god, how can anyone buy into it?

pleas advice

Just because I was born into a Catholic family and its just the done thing.

theres your answer, take it or leave it

NIMAN

Its a difficult one.

Similar situation myself, I wouldn't be a believer and OH probably is, but sometimes its easier to go with the flow.

If you don't baptise your kids, it makes their schooling a lot of hassle. It might get easier in the coming years but for me I really had no option. Its a form of blackmail imho, but if we wanted our kids at the local school, it was mandatory.

Also, the extended family might have been an issue too. Especially the parents.

Sometimes you have to bite your tongue.

sabat

iamtony wrote: »

... but I said to her that's fine but how can you believe in a god who will send only Christians who are baptised to heaven and the rest of the world don't get to participate in this.

Well according to Pope Benedict they do:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/22/pope-benedict-xvi-heaven-non-catholics-church

Nick Park

iamtony wrote: »

So I've lost all belief in the religion I was born into and then used my own brain to realise its all nonsense to me. Can't understand anyone who follows any religion, Bit that's your own right and I respect it, if not envy it.
My problem is why should I feel forced to baptise my children. Just because I was born into a Catholic family and its just the done thing.
She said she believes in God but I said to her that's fine but how can you believe in a god who will send only Christians who are baptised to heaven and the rest of the world don't get to participate in this.
My belief, if I believed in a god, would be for him/her to accept all good people for the good they have done and felt through there life's not because they prayed or worshipped a particular religion, one that probably incited wars and all that.
No god would force people to worship them! If they are gods and they have a specific criteria to enter heaven why would it include getting baptised and all that. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
Did gandhi not make it because he didn't pray to jesus? Is there a reasonable conversation to be had here or is it just going to be a bunch of you quoting a book? Do you want your religion questioned?

Do suicide bombers go to hell because they were brain washed by bad humans?

I just don't get it. Its full or hatrid and war and killing in the name or god, how can anyone buy into it?

Your question is nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with how a marriage works.

Marriage is about two people learning to respect one another, knowing when to let the other person have their own way, and deciding which issues are worth standing up for.

For what it's worth, I don't believe a ceremony of baptism has the slightest bearing whatsoever on whether a child goes to heaven or not. However, if your wife thinks it does, then that makes it very important to her.

If you don't believe in God, then letting your child get baptised is a meaningless ceremony. It won't harm your child, nor will it help them. So it's essentially no different from heaps of other meaningless stuff we do. So the cost to you of letting your wife have her way is minimal.

However, if your wife strongly believes that baptising the child is important, then letting you have your way is, in her mind, harmful to the child. So the cost to her of letting you have your way is (from her perspective) huge.

So your question should not be 'why is the missus fighting with me?' but rather 'why on earth am I fighting with my missus over something that doesn't really matter to me?'.

Why not let her have her way on this one, and save the fighting for something that really matters to you?

Sebastian Dangerfield

My wife and I had a similar issue. I dont believe; she does but doesn't go to mass. She felt strongly about christening them for reasons I felt even worse about; i) schools, ii) so they wouldnt be left out of the social side when they were older, and iii) to keep her parents happy. Had a few rows about it so we came to a simple agreement; she christened them and I had no part in the day. When the kids are older we will tell them people believe in different things; their mammy believes in god, I dont.

From experience you can waste a lot of time and stress arguing over this, and you'll probably only get further apart in your views. Try to find a way past it that you can both live with.

tritriagain

Nick Park wrote: »

Your question is nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with how a marriage works.

Marriage is about two people learning to respect one another, knowing when to let the other person have their own way, and deciding which issues are worth standing up for.

For what it's worth, I don't believe a ceremony of baptism has the slightest bearing whatsoever on whether a child goes to heaven or not. However, if your wife thinks it does, then that makes it very important to her.

If you don't believe in God, then letting your child get baptised is a meaningless ceremony. It won't harm your child, nor will it help them. So it's essentially no different from heaps of other meaningless stuff we do. So the cost to you of letting your wife have her way is minimal.

However, if your wife strongly believes that baptising the child is important, then letting you have your way is, in her mind, harmful to the child. So the cost to her of letting you have your way is (from her perspective) huge.

So your question should not be 'why is the missus fighting with me?' but rather 'why on earth am I fighting with my missus over something that doesn't really matter to me?'.

Why not let her have her way on this one, and save the fighting for something that really matters to you?

Exactly this . I got married in church.my 2kids he even baptised, made 1st Communion and confirmed . All because my wife wanted it. I did question it on 2nd baptism but let it go in the end. At that time I was becoming quite vocal about atheism whereas soon after I learned you won't change people's mind , as they won't change mine, so why bother. On a side note both my kids went to Catholic school.hes 19 and he's an atheist and so is my 13year old girl. My wife believes in something but she's not sure what.we often talked about belief and non belief at home and gave them free choice in anything religious. I think they are better people for that.i am biased though.

Mr.Wemmick

Nick Park wrote: »

If you don't believe in God, then letting your child get baptised is a meaningless ceremony. It won't harm your child, nor will it help them. So it's essentially no different from heaps of other meaningless stuff we do. So the cost to you of letting your wife have her way is minimal.

However, if your wife strongly believes that baptising the child is important, then letting you have your way is, in her mind, harmful to the child. So the cost to her of letting you have your way is (from her perspective) huge.

So your question should not be 'why is the missus fighting with me?' but rather 'why on earth am I fighting with my missus over something that doesn't really matter to me?'.

Why not let her have her way on this one, and save the fighting for something that really matters to you?

Spot on.

OP, allow your wife to baptize the child and you stay away. You can have all these discussions with your child when he/she is older to give them a balanced view, enable them to make their own choice, but in this instance you need to respect your wife's belief. If religion means nothing to you, then exactly as written by Nick, why is the baptism important if it were to happen, surely it doesn't matter.

Your child will have to access education, school and it will make their life easier in the beginning. I would allow it.. and I, like you, don't really care about ceremonies, the rituals surrounding religion. They are also meaningless to me.

No matter how you feel, respect for your wife's feelings is so incredibly important. What is the point of throwing away unimportant religion if we lose our love, respect and regard for our family's feelings in the process.

Avatar MIA

You believe in logic, right. Read Nick's post above.

Unless Atheism is actually some form of religion for you, then go with the flow. Attend, and be gracious. Trust your kids will figure it out for themselves.

Oh, and swallow your pride... it's a sin :P

GarIT

Is this not 2nd or 3rd date material for most people? If someone said they would be willing to let their child be baptised I wouldn’t be seeing them again never mind marrying them.

Baptism is like a tattoo, ones it’s done you can’t get rid of it.

Avatar MIA

GarIT wrote: »

Baptism is like a tattoo, ones it’s done you can’t get rid of it.

What? If you believe, then you probably should let your child be baptised.

If you don't believe some village elder is pouring water over your child's head. It's not like the kid is going to remember it.

Quazzie

GarIT wrote: »

Baptism is like a tattoo, ones it’s done you can’t get rid of it.

I'd say 99% of atheists in this country were baptised so that statement is a load of nonsense.

The Bishop Basher

GarIT wrote: »

Baptism is like a tattoo, ones it’s done you can’t get rid of it.

Interesting that you give the baptismal ceremony so much validity and credence.

dr.fuzzenstein

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

From experience you can waste a lot of time and stress arguing over this, and you'll probably only get further apart in your views. Try to find a way past it that you can both live with.

It's funny how the human mind works.
People believe the earth is flat, that sugarpills cure diseases and that there is a magic man living in the clouds that judges you and you must please him or you go to hell.
If you present rational, logical arguments to them that the above are ludicrous superstitions, they get insulted, defensive and they will redouble their faith for reasons that I cannot fathom.
I have no idea why this particular defect in the human mind exists, I cannot see the evolutionary benefit in deliberately clinging onto nonsensical ideas.
Trump and Brexit have used this human flaw to maximum effect by indoctrinating people into their propaganda.
Once you have created an atmosphere of "us vs them", people will follow to the bitter and inevitable end. When the dust has settled, everyone will say " I have no idea how this happened".
It is kind of sad that people won't be won over by rational, logical arguments and facts, but shout loud enough and tell people "those other people are all against you, follow me and I'll look after you, us against them!", you will have won over the crowd and they will follow you till the end of the earth.
I guess "faith" is a word that describes following an idea for which there is no basis in reality and which doesn't hold up to even the most basic, reasoned scrutiny.
It's all about emotions and bypasses sense. What emotions? I guess fear would be chief amongst them.
Fear of retribution in the form of hell and fear of others coming to take their cheese.
Now offer these people protection from their fears and you have them.
Maybe it's a strong desire to be lead, to have others tell you what to think, feeling taken care of and that everything is in order.
I guess it overrules your rational capacity to logically evaluate facts, you just don't want to know as long as someone else tells you "don't worry, don't think, just trust me and everything is going to be OK".
If now someone comes along and says " actually, there are a few problems with the concept you believe in", you will get defensive. You have it how you like it. Everything is nice and comfy. The last thing you want is someone pissing in your soup and present cold, hard reality to you.
This doesn't actually cover everyone who believes in a nonsensical concept. There will be a large percentage of people who are just running along with the crowd.
They want to belong and not upset their fellow believers, also because in a lot of cases there are consequences for going against dogma, so it's easier to just surrender to a system that you know is illogical, but you haven't the power to change it.
Give it a few million years, maybe humanity will evolve into a rational species, but for the next few thousand years don't hold your breath.

Bonzo Delaney

Have to agree with Nick parks reply
It more about marriage than religion it's a game of stragety
And you pick your battles carefully if you don't believe sure what's the harm in going along with a little fairy tale for a day .everyone's happy and,
Realisticly you've nothing to loose.

The high horse brigade

I'm with you here OP. If you don't want to go with it then you should sit down and explain your thoughts to her. Let her know that as joint partners it takes two to make a big decision like this and without your backing it just can't go ahead.

mrcheez

GarIT wrote: »

Is this not 2nd or 3rd date material for most people? If someone said they would be willing to let their child be baptised I wouldn’t be seeing them again never mind marrying them.

Baptism is like a tattoo, ones it’s done you can’t get rid of it.

It's pouring a glass of water over the kids head just like what happens when they have a bath. No permanent mark unless you WANT it to mean something. To OP I reckon just go with flow (pun intended) on this one. As an atheist it shouldnt matter to you if some h2O hits your kids head just to save a few arguments.

Avatar MIA

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Let her know that as joint partners it takes two to make a big decision like this and without your backing it just can't go ahead.

And how long are you happily divorced?

And why do you think it cannot go ahead without the OP's consent. What law are you citing?

Huntergonzo

Well look the catholic church like all religions amount to nothing more than a dangerous cult, now it's one with many many many members but that doesn't give it any extra legitimacy, is this really an organisation you want to introduce a child to?

Anyway joining a church should be an adult decision, the church needs people to be signed up well before they reach the age of reason otherwise they likely wouldn't exist at all.

Ps, our education system is an international embarrassment and should be challenged relentlessly, people feeling pressure to baptize their children just to ensure a place in a publicly funded school is outrageous.

bilbot79

In Ireland you have to get your communion money right. And then you have to still have it in your 40's so people can say things like 'Sure he still has his communion money'.

You're not denying the child religion, you're denying them a part of Irish culture.

Baptism is a sound financial investment for your child.

A lot of posters here advising the OP just to go along with it to stop rows with the wife!!
Sorry OP, why should you baptise your children into a religion if you don't want to?
Maybe your wife should let this one go for the same of no rows.
Let her tell them about religions & allow them to make up their own mind when they are older

mrcheez

bubblypop wrote: »

A lot of posters here advising the OP just to go along with it to stop rows with the wife!!
Sorry OP, why should you baptise your children into a religion if you don't want to?
Maybe your wife should let this one go for the same of no rows.
Let her tell them about religions & allow them to make up their own mind when they are older

its also to avoid hassle with Irish institutions

tritriagain

bubblypop wrote: »

A lot of posters here advising the OP just to go along with it to stop rows with the wife!!
Sorry OP, why should you baptise your children into a religion if you don't want to?
Maybe your wife should let this one go for the same of no rows.
Let her tell them about religions & allow them to make up their own mind when they are older

Because it will make no difference to him but it obviously means alot to his wife. Just enjoy the session afterwards. Life's too short for the aggro. It's alright for the religious they are going to heaven. Me I'll enjoy the short time I have here.

Peregrinus

iamtony wrote: »

So I've lost all belief in the religion I was born into and then used my own brain to realise its all nonsense to me. Can't understand anyone who follows any religion, Bit that's your own right and I respect it, if not envy it.
My problem is why should I feel forced to baptise my children. Just because I was born into a Catholic family and its just the done thing.
She said she believes in God but I said to her that's fine but how can you believe in a god who will send only Christians who are baptised to heaven and the rest of the world don't get to participate in this . . .

Has your missus told you that she believes this? I can't but notice that in the OP you have a long screed against a whole series of things that you don't, at any point, say your missus believes or says.

The underlying problem here may be that you and she are not talking. It's possible that your missus believes all the stuff you say in your OP, but it's not very likely; Catholics generally do not believe this and the Catholic church does not teach it.

So the problem here may be that you're reacting to beliefs that you mistakenly think your missus holds, or that you mistakenly think are connected with Christian baptism. You could be arguing over a misunderstanding.

She needs to explain to you why it's important to her that the kids are baptised, and you need to listen to what she says. And then you need to think about your attitude to baptism, based possibly on a better understanding of what it means to your missus.

The Bishop Basher

I heard a great saying once..

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married ?

As has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, pick your battles.

A baptism can only have meaning if you attach meaning to it.

If it means nothing to you and means so much to your wife, why wouldn't you let her have it.

There's a time to make a point about your principals and lack of beliefs, this isn't it..

I'd much rather save that battle for discussion about schools.

The high horse brigade

Avatar MIA wrote: »

And how long are you happily divorced?

And why do you think it cannot go ahead without the OP's consent. What law are you citing?

I'm in a relationship for 21 years. We make decisions together, we don't force them on each other

Avatar MIA

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I'm in a relationship for 21 years. We make decisions together, we don't force them on each other

If one person denies another person they are forcing their decision on them.

Of course in the OP's case the mum is going to get the baby baptised anyway.

mrcheez

mrcheez wrote: »

its also to avoid hassle with Irish institutions

If people stopped baptising children to suit Irish institutions, then the system would change.

iamtony

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's funny how the human mind works.
People believe the earth is flat, that sugarpills cure diseases and that there is a magic man living in the clouds that judges you and you must please him or you go to hell.
If you present rational, logical arguments to them that the above are ludicrous superstitions, they get insulted, defensive and they will redouble their faith for reasons that I cannot fathom.
I have no idea why this particular defect in the human mind exists, I cannot see the evolutionary benefit in deliberately clinging onto nonsensical ideas.
Trump and Brexit have used this human flaw to maximum effect by indoctrinating people into their propaganda.
Once you have created an atmosphere of "us vs them", people will follow to the bitter and inevitable end. When the dust has settled, everyone will say " I have no idea how this happened".
It is kind of sad that people won't be won over by rational, logical arguments and facts, but shout loud enough and tell people "those other people are all against you, follow me and I'll look after you, us against them!", you will have won over the crowd and they will follow you till the end of the earth.
I guess "faith" is a word that describes following an idea for which there is no basis in reality and which doesn't hold up to even the most basic, reasoned scrutiny.
It's all about emotions and bypasses sense. What emotions? I guess fear would be chief amongst them.
Fear of retribution in the form of hell and fear of others coming to take their cheese.
Now offer these people protection from their fears and you have them.
Maybe it's a strong desire to be lead, to have others tell you what to think, feeling taken care of and that everything is in order.
I guess it overrules your rational capacity to logically evaluate facts, you just don't want to know as long as someone else tells you "don't worry, don't think, just trust me and everything is going to be OK".
If now someone comes along and says " actually, there are a few problems with the concept you believe in", you will get defensive. You have it how you like it. Everything is nice and comfy. The last thing you want is someone pissing in your soup and present cold, hard reality to you.
This doesn't actually cover everyone who believes in a nonsensical concept. There will be a large percentage of people who are just running along with the crowd.
They want to belong and not upset their fellow believers, also because in a lot of cases there are consequences for going against dogma, so it's easier to just surrender to a system that you know is illogical, but you haven't the power to change it.
Give it a few million years, maybe humanity will evolve into a rational species, but for the next few thousand years don't hold your breath.

this could explain the madness. I don't know why but it bothers me that so many otherwise rational normal humans go along with it all.

Just for the record(I'm the op incase you lost track) my kids are already baptised and communed and one of them confirmed. I went along with it to make life easy for them, not me.

The missus isn't mad religious or anything like it, I don't even know what we were really talking about but it's the first time she ever mentioned actually believing in it all.
I put a few simple questions to her, like the ones in the op, and she got angry and went to bed. That's why I posted it. I'm really trying to understand what is going through her head and anyone else who actually believes in any religion in a modern society.

wexie

iamtony wrote: »

this could explain the madness. I don't know why but it bothers me that so many otherwise rational normal humans go along with it all.

Just for the record(I'm the op incase you lost track) my kids are already baptised and communed and one of them confirmed. I went along with it to make life easy for them, not me.

The missus isn't mad religious or anything like it, I don't even know what we were really talking about but it's the first time she ever mentioned actually believing in it all.
I put a few simple questions to her, like the ones in the op, and she got angry and went to bed. That's why I posted it. I'm really trying to understand what is going through her head and anyone else who actually believes in any religion in a modern society.

Religion is a funny thing, personally I find it fascinating people can get so much strength and comfort from something for which (in my mind) there is absolutely no proof or logical argument. But, having said that, I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be helpful to have that faith and to be able to believe that we do live in a world where there is a benevolent being watching over us in a kind of ignorance is bliss way.

With regards to your mrs it sounds like perhaps you've underestimated her faith and she feels attacked over it? It's a delicate kind of discussion to have without coming across as disrespectful. When you're pointing out all the gaps in the theories of someones else's faith and how their reasoning is wrong it's easy enough to get offended if you're sitting there thinking you do adhere to the same faith.

Personally I'm still trying to work out where I stand on the whole thing, I seem to fluctuate between atheist and agnostic and I'm happy enough with that I guess.

But if there's one thing I noticed is that there are a lot of atheists out there that are incredibly disrespectful to other people's religion and choices.

Whether or not you think (believe?) that religion is all fairytales and skypeople doesn't really matter when at the end of the day there are billions of people in this world who believe in a God of some description. I think simply dismissing it as mass hysteria and fairytales would be very disrespectful, narrow minded and simplistic.

TL/DR : It's a discussion worthwhile having with your mrs but it's also a discussion to be had with a lot of patience, respect and understanding

Squatter

Maybe, just maybe, Christianity is right! Unlikely I'll grant you, but perhaps it is!

In which case, I presume that you'd feel a right b0llix to have deprived your kids of an opportunity to get into the fasttrack queue for the next life?

So it's far better to give them the opportunity to reject religion for themselves when they arrive at adulthood rather than to arrogantly presuppose that they'll share your views on the subject!

So why not just do the baptism/communion/confirmation thing and then walk away and allow them to exercise their own free will.