The Tragic Case of Alfie Evans

EagererBeaver

Another very sad case in the UK, similar to that of Charlie Gard last year. Anyone been following it and, if so, what are your thoughts?

My views haven't changed since the CG case - the rights of the parents to ignore medical opinion do not supersede the rights of the child, and the courts are right to step in when the parents' wishes are not in the best interests of the child. People protesting at the hospital and abusing staff are absolute scum.

The case:

Parents of Alfie Evans launch legal challenge over end-of-life care

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/13/protest-held-liverpool-over-withdrawal-of-toddler-life-support-alfie-evans

The CG thread:

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057759906/1

Temptamperu

Links? info? what are you on about?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Temptamperu wrote: »

Links? info? what are you on about?

Terminally ill child whose parents refused to allow the hospital to withdraw life support, government overruled them and gave hospital permission.

Gatling

He needs to be let go in peace and dignity and all this emotional ,social media campaigns need to be stopped it's doing the family no good ,get away from the Media and social media circus .

Harry Palmr

Usual story in the age of instant outrage and Ordinary Joes thinking they know better or being influenced by outsiders with some sort of campaign mentality based on little or no knowledge.

EagererBeaver

Temptamperu wrote: »

Links? info? what are you on about?

Post updated. On my phone and hit post by mistake.

EagererBeaver

Similar to the CG case, the parents appear to be taking some very bad advice on this - the father has wetted that he has legal proof that he has the right to take the child out of the hospital and has evidenced this by showing a letter (the contents of which are unclear) from the "Christian Legal Centre". The protests at the hospital last night arose from an appeal of his.

SEPT 23 1989

state interference is fine but only when it suits

EagererBeaver

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

state interference is fine but only when it suits

Feel free to elaborate on that a tad...

Graces7

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Usual story in the age of instant outrage and Ordinary Joes thinking they know better or being influenced by outsiders with some sort of campaign mentality based on little or no knowledge.

Parents have rights and NHS etc make mistakes,

Have you forgotten the wee lad , whose parents literally kidnapped him, who is now well and free of cancer?

and there is no mention of what the baby will suffer if they withdraw treatment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3424058/So-Ashya-s-parents-RIGHT-Proton-beam-cancer-therapy-forced-family-run-Spain-couldn-t-NHS-good-chemotherapy-fewer-effects.html

This family have had offers of help abroad and should be allowed to take their child to another hospital . How dare the gvt play God like this

Graces7

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Similar to the CG case, the parents appear to be taking some very bad advice on this - the father has wetted that he has legal proof that he has the right to take the child out of the hospital and has evidenced this by showing a letter (the contents of which are unclear) from the "Christian Legal Centre". The protests at the hospital last night arose from an appeal of his.

????? They are seeking to take the baby to a different hospital who probably can help him. How is that bad advice?

Capt'n Midnight

I haven't checked the specifics of this case because at the end of the day it's just economics.

Health care could always do with more money because you can't save everyone if you are on a budget. All you can do is save as many lives as you can.

If a terminally ill patient is hogging equipment that could be used to save a life in A&E then it's very difficult to justify continued treatment.


On a slightly different topic there's a huge for profit healthcare / big pharma interest in extending life, even if it's in pain, if you can get paid for it.

Canis Lupus

Graces7 wrote: »

????? They are seeking to take the baby to a different hospital who probably can help him. How is that bad advice?

Not according to the BBC. 'But Alder Hey's hospital trust argues that Bambino Gesu has a similar belief that care for Alfie should be palliative.'

The child is dying, moving him to another hospital won't change that.

gctest50

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I haven't checked the specifics of this case because at the end of the day it's just economics.

Health care could always do with more money because you can't save everyone if you are on a budget. All you can do is save as many lives as you can.

If a terminally ill patient is hogging equipment that could be used to save a life in A&E then it's very difficult to justify continued treatment.


.......

He had an air ambulance to get the child out of there to another hospital - exact opposite of hogging equipment

The protest outside Alder Hey began after Tom Evans said in an emotional Facebook video that he had an air ambulance on standby to fly his son for treatment in Rome

Gatling

According to the hospital experts , little Alfie's brain is mostly liquidifed and all thats keeping him alive is the multiple machines he's currently hooked up to ,

It's a very sad case but the parents need to get off facebook and courts and spend what little time they have left with Alfie in peace and free from stress .

Jimbob1977

If the parents are willing to take their son out of the hospital, surely that should suit the hospital?

Their problem is solved (unless he is re-admitted after new treatment fails).

iamwhoiam

Graces7 wrote: »

Parents have rights and NHS etc make mistakes,

Have you forgotten the wee lad , whose parents literally kidnapped him, who is now well and free of cancer?

and there is no mention of what the baby will suffer if they withdraw treatment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3424058/So-Ashya-s-parents-RIGHT-Proton-beam-cancer-therapy-forced-family-run-Spain-couldn-t-NHS-good-chemotherapy-fewer-effects.html

This family have had offers of help abroad and should be allowed to take their child to another hospital . How dare the gvt play God like this

They have been offered a tracheostomy and a PEG feeding tube . This will not cure the child or make any difference to his quality of life . Its very tough on parents to accept that a life attached to ventilator and no quality of life is not best for their baby . But it isn't and its unfair for anyone to not do what is in the childs best interest
There is no comparison with the child with cancer and this child who has a progressive neurological deteriorating life limiting condition

gctest50

Gatling wrote: »

.......


all thats keeping him alive is the multiple machines he's currently hooked up to ,


.

this is not a lot of gear :

iamwhoiam

gctest50 wrote: »

this is not a lot of gear :

He is ventilated , on artificial feeds via tubes . He is artificially kept alive

buried

Do yourselves a massive f**king favour and ignore all that absolute GRIM f**king noise the likes of the Daily Mail peddle to the masses over in the UK.
You can get enough of a Grimness hit over here with our own problems.

gctest50

iamwhoiam wrote: »

He is ventilated , on artificial feeds via tubes . He is artificially kept alive

It's still not a lot of gear

And if they left him off in the air ambulance, they could have it all back


.

Nettle Soup

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Usual story in the age of instant outrage and Ordinary Joes thinking they know better or being influenced by outsiders with some sort of campaign mentality based on little or no knowledge.

Yeah you're right. Well put too.
It probably applies to most threads here.

CrabRevolution

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

state interference is fine but only when it suits

Like how they intervened to save the child's life in the first place?

iamwhoiam

gctest50 wrote: »

It's still not a lot of gear

And if they left in off in the air ambulance, they could have it all back

I doubt very much that the medical team looking after Alfie are concerned about their " gear " . Its the child best interest that concerns them . The child has a progressive neurological illness and it is not in his best interest to have him face surgical procedures in order to prolong his little life .

iamwhoiam

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Like how they intervened to save the child's life in the first place?

We don't know the full case but it is likely Alfie was ventilated when he first became ill and awaiting diagnosis .

CrabRevolution

iamwhoiam wrote: »

We don't know the full case but it is likely Alfie was ventilated when he first became ill and awaiting diagnosis .

Well yeah. But it's the state's "interference" that provides the hospital, the doctors, the equipment, the medicines, the nurses etc.

gctest50

iamwhoiam wrote: »

We don't know the full case but it is likely Alfie was ventilated when he first became ill and awaiting diagnosis .

They have failed to diagnose

- what they don't want is him going to another hospital and getting diagnosed ( even if he dies )

because lawsuit

iamwhoiam

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Well yeah. But it's the state's "interference" that provides the hospital, the doctors, the equipment, the medicines, the nurses etc.

A sick child arrives to a hospital and is treated for his symptoms until diagnosed . How is that interference ? I am
not with you ?

iamwhoiam

gctest50 wrote: »

They have failed to diagnose

- what they don't want is him going to another hospital and getting diagnosed ( even if he dies )

because lawsuit

Have you read his whole medical file ? Or just plucking facts from the media ?

ohnonotgmail

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Have you read his whole medical file ? Or just plucking facts from the media ?

maybe not from the media but i'm pretty sure we can all guess where.

CrabRevolution

iamwhoiam wrote: »

A sick child arrives to a hospital and is treated for his symptoms until diagnosed . How is that interference ? I am
not with you ?

My original point was aimed at people giving out at state interference, when it's the overall system of state interference that causes the child to be alive.

Ursus Horribilis

People really lose the run of themselves when it comes to cases like these. All they can see is the cute baby and think that the heartless doctors are unrepentant baby killers. The only person not being considered here is poor Alfie himself. What sort of quality of life will he have if they succeed in keeping him hooked up to machines. I don't think any of us would like to spend the rest of our lives in a vegetative state. So why inflict it on a brain damaged child who will never live any sort of meaningful life.

At times like these, the parents are the worst possible people to make decisions. They're emotionally involved and that blinds them to the pragmatic realities.

gctest50

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Have you read his whole medical file ?

Have you ?


How do you know what he has ? :

iamwhoiam wrote: »

....

The child has a progressive neurological illness .

How how ? How do you know ?

iamwhoiam

CrabRevolution wrote: »

My original point was aimed at people giving out at state interference, when it's the overall system of state interference that causes the child to be alive.

Ah , ok I misunderstood your point

ohnonotgmail

gctest50 wrote: »

Have you ?


How do you know what he has ? :




How how ? How do you know ?

well his doctors think so, unless you know better?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/20/parents-lose-legal-fight-keep-liverpool-toddler-life-support

The toddler, born on 9 May 2016, is in a semi-vegetative state and has a degenerative neurological condition that has never been definitively diagnosed by doctors.

gctest50

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well his doctors think so, unless you know better?

ttp://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/20/parents-lose-legal-fight-keep-liverpool-toddler-life-support

were you talking to them, you were ?

iamwhoiam wrote: »

.......Or just plucking facts from the media ?

.

iamwhoiam

gctest50 wrote: »

.

Followed the court case and statements

iamwhoiam

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well his doctors think so, unless you know better?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/20/parents-lose-legal-fight-keep-liverpool-toddler-life-support

Thank you I don't know how to quote or post links on my phone . Thanks for that one

iamwhoiam

Poor Alfie . He just needs some peace and quiet and love and care , he needs his mum and dad and family to help him be at peace . Not this media frenzy and people shouting and blocking the entrance to a paeds hospital . Most of them haven't a blessed clue about Alfies illness or prognosis or daily care

gctest50

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Followed the court case and statements

Well then, you are the best person to ask :

Have they diagnosed ?

[ ] Yes

[ ] No

For example these four different paediatricians failed, the child died needlessly :

"Aimee's death should not have happened. Despite reviews by not only one, but by four different paediatricians, no one detected that she had this life threatening problem," Mr Keogh said in his heartbreaking statement.

https://bit.ly/2HhO3Uf

Healthcare errors are the third leading cause of death ( US )

A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.
Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.

,

Mrs OBumble

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I don't think any of us would like to spend the rest of our lives in a vegetative state. So why inflict it on a brain damaged child who will never live any sort of meaningful life.

At times like these, the parents are the worst possible people to make decisions. They're emotionally involved and that blinds them to the pragmatic realities.

If the kid is in a vegetative state, he's not suffering. Whether there's any meaning in his life, who knows - different meanings apply to different people.

The ones who are suffering are the parents and family, and the other sick kids who are not able to use the hospital bed because he is in it, and the state which is footing the bill. And the doctors who couldn't find a diagnosis.

EagererBeaver

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

maybe not from the media but i'm pretty sure we can all guess where.

Just repeating the same ****e he did on the CG thread. The big bad sinister children's hospital is only interested in covering its ass etc. Absolute nonsense.

Graces7

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Just repeating the same ****e he did on the CG thread. The big bad sinister children's hospital is only interested in covering its ass etc. Absolute nonsense.

You think drs are infallble? Certainly not in the UK and what you write sounds about right and accurate. .

gctest50

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Just repeating the same ****e he did on the CG thread. The big bad sinister children's hospital is only interested in covering its ass etc. Absolute nonsense.

The NHS paid out about 1.6 billion pounds last year due to negligence


The estimated total liabilities, which is the cost if all current claims are successful, stands at £ 65 billion pounds

end of the road

gctest50 wrote: »

The NHS paid out about 1.6 billion pounds last year due to negligence


The estimated total liabilities, which is the cost if all current claims are successful, stands at £ 65 billion pounds

that's a massive amount of money. both figures.

Ursus Horribilis

Just because doctors working with the NHS have made mistakes does not mean they're wrong in this case. It's likely that because this case has gone through the courts, Alfie has been thoroughly assessed by numerous doctors. The sooner this case is resolved, the better for everyone. That bed needs freeing up for some child who needs it. I also wonder what it's like in that hospital for the staff, families and patients of the children in there. The racket from that baying mob outside can't be pleasant to deal with.

EagererBeaver

Graces7 wrote: »

You think drs are infallble? Certainly not in the UK and what you write sounds about right and accurate. .

Did you read, anywhere, me saying that doctors are infallible?

end of the road

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

That bed needs freeing up for some child who needs it.

that's irrelevant really to be fair. it isn't even a consideration in these cases.

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I also wonder what it's like in that hospital for the staff, families and patients of the children in there. The racket from that baying mob outside can't be pleasant to deal with.

i'm sure it can't, but protests are a fact of life whether one agrees with a particular protest or not, at least for now anyway as i'd imagine children's and other hospitals will be next on the list for protest banns. so this may not be an issue for much longer.

iamwhoiam

end of the road wrote: »

that's irrelevant really to be fair. it isn't even a consideration in these cases.



i'm sure it can't, but protests are a fact of life whether one agrees with a particular protest or not, at least for now anyway as i'd imagine children's and other hospitals will be next on the list for protest banns. so this may not be an issue for much longer.

Stressed parents of very sick children should not have to be disturbed and upset by shouting mobs outside . Its selfish to even contemplate such a thing

gctest50

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

....

That bed needs freeing up for some child who needs it.

Exactly - his parents want to remove him from that hospital ( air ambulance etc )

end of the road

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Stressed parents of very sick children should not have to be disturbed and upset by shouting mobs outside . Its selfish to even contemplate such a thing

people also have a right to protest whether i agree with them or not.