Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

Faugheen

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Not sure whether youre male/female but if you were male, and accused of something as heinous as rape, but knew you were innocent, how angry would you be at being acquitted in very short time, after a lengthy trial? With public figures including elected representatives tweeting their support to the "victim", and uttering doubt as to the acquittal?

Now we can add "pissing people off" for a half arsed apology to his crimes.
There truly is no path to redemption for poor Paddy!

And for all the good it as done olding, he's keeping his head down all right, going about his business, but he was never as high profile as Jackson.

I would be annoyed, anyone would. Thankfully I was never and won't ever be stupid enough to put myself in that position by behaving like an animal. Consensual or not, the way Jackson, Olding and McIlroy (whose messages about multiple threesomes with Jackson did him no favours and exposed that this was regular behaviour for them) showcased how they treat women didn't sit well with people. You might not like that, but it's a fact that a lot of people were appalled by it especially how they spoke about it after.

Olding's statement did Jackson no favours. Jackson came across as the self-entitled boy that him and his mates behaved like after Olding at the very least showed some regret and owned up to his part in the situation, and recognised that his behaviour landed him in a situation that he could have easily avoided while still proclaiming innocence.

If Jackson had released a similar statement, I don't think we'd be having this conversation right now. He still wouldn't be playing in Ireland, but there would have been less of a deal made about him joining LI in my opinion.

Even if you think he was right to say what he did after the trial, it did him no good, and that's all on him because that's the route he decided to go and it's backfired greatly on him.

Faugheen

dont bother wrote: »

well this thread has been hijacked by the hairy kind of feminist since it's beginnings. this is not the place of fact, read the papers from the trial coverage.
it was all over the papers at the time. i'm not looking for links.

she had a grudge against paddy ( i think it was something to do with him not going for her in a club a previous night) and her texts to her friends were to the tune of "i'm going to get him, i'm going to bring down Ulster Rugby".. there was also something about her friends saying "are you sure you want to go ahead with this" etc...

This is a lie. She initially didn't want to give a statement because she felt Ulster Rugby would have weighed in behind them and she wouldn't have stood a chance.

You have literally just said exactly the opposite to what she actually said.

EDIT: a link to back up my claim - https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/utter-scum-belfast-rape-trial-hears-of-text-exchange-1.3391876?mode=amp

Now, you made a claim which nobody else has heard, back it up.

Yeah_Right

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Has she been signed for London Irish too?

No she has gotten on with her life pretty much anonymously. She doesn't have random strangers trying ruin her career and livelihood. She's not being hounded on social media and dragged through the press.

Roger Hassenforder

Faugheen wrote: »

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Not sure whether youre male/female but if you were male, and accused of something as heinous as rape, but knew you were innocent, how angry would you be at being acquitted in very short time, after a lengthy trial? With public figures including elected representatives tweeting their support to the "victim", and uttering doubt as to the acquittal?

Now we can add "pissing people off" for a half arsed apology to his crimes.
There truly is no path to redemption for poor Paddy!

And for all the good it as done olding, he's keeping his head down all right, going about his business, but he was never as high profile as Jackson.

I would be annoyed, anyone would. Thankfully I was never and won't ever be stupid enough to put myself in that position by behaving like an animal. Consensual or not, the way Jackson, Olding and McIlroy (whose messages about multiple threesomes with Jackson did him no favours and exposed that this was regular behaviour for them) showcased how they treat women didn't sit well with people. You might not like that, but it's a fact that a lot of people were appalled by it especially how they spoke about it after.

Olding's statement did Jackson no favours. Jackson came across as the self-entitled boy that him and his mates behaved like after Olding at the very least showed some regret and owned up to his part in the situation, and recognised that his behaviour landed him in a situation that he could have easily avoided while still proclaiming innocence.

If Jackson had released a similar statement, I don't think we'd be having this conversation right now. He still wouldn't be playing in Ireland, but there would have been less of a deal made about him joining LI in my opinion.

Even if you think he was right to say what he did after the trial, it did him no good, and that's all on him because that's the route he decided to go and it's backfired greatly on him.

That it was found to be consensual is very pertinent, as it makes it none of our business, how they treat women who choose to place themselves in such a position. Unless we wish to appoint ourselves as some sort of moral police, where we adjudicate on what is acceptable behaviour for young adults.

Do i like how they behaved? No. I wouldn't, and I'd kill Padawan if he treated a girl as a spunk sponge.

But having played sports at a decent level, such high profile players enjoy fruits the rest of us can only imagine. That girl fully knew to whose house she was going. )This doesnt mean she deserved to be raped) The lads i reckon didnt even know her name. She was just the latest "groupie" to be fcuked by lads. With such girls they'd boast they'd a spit roast - she'd boast to her friends she was with paddy jackson. Kudos all round. I dont approve or condemn, its none of my business until a crime is alleged, as was in this case, where we get to dwell and discuss every prurient detail of the sex lives of elite. Many might not like how people treat each other. But thats casual sex between attractive people. And i think there may be a small bit of jealousy in play with some people rushing to condem or cry foul.

It didnt matter a fcuk what he did afterwards. Lets not cod ourselves, the reaction of the mob is not a function of his post acquittal behaviour.
He was damned- A rapist, only the court got it wrong. Fulsome apology on the steps if the court would be seen as an admission of guilt - Oh look, the cossetted rich pampered, privately educated white rugby player gets off, but we all know he did it, dont we #ibelieveher" He does what he did, he's damned as well. The mob didnt care what he did to express his regret. Some might have more nuanced positions.
But the fact remains, he was acquitted. All the baying mob had to console themselves with was a whatsapp message, his on the more benign end of the scale with a " there was a lot of spit". Others saying far worse, have recieved a slap on the wrist.

Sure the IRFU are entitled to terminate his contract, but he should be allowed start afresh elsewhere. So again I ask.How much atonement must he do?

FrancieBrady

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

That it was found to be consensual is very pertinent, as it makes it none of our business, how they treat women who choose to place themselves in such a position. Unless we wish to appoint ourselves as some sort of moral police, where we adjudicate on what is acceptable behaviour for young adults.

This x 100. I think much of the reaction uncovered a whole undercurrent of Catholic puritanical disgust and guilt about what goes on in peoples private lives.

I know married middle aged women who talk about men - especially much younger men - in exactly the same way as these guys talked about women. Thats "liberated" though, whereas they are disgusting.

Fact is that there would never have been a trial if the other woman hadn't come in the room phone in hand. It was the social stigma of people finding out that made her say it was rape.

Sure these men have lots of sex with willing young women... They are rich young handsome celebrities. Of course they arent going to put much value on it. It's casual sex FFS. This is normal for them.

Roger Hassenforder

Deleted User wrote: »

I know married middle aged women who talk about men - especially much younger men - in exactly the same way as these guys talked about women. Thats "liberated" though, whereas they are disgusting.

What gets me is there are many here who profess never to have discussed sex, casual fcuking, good sex, bad sex, neighbours smoking fags sex, one night stands, members of the opposite sex, desires and fantasys, what they'd do to someone given half a chance etc. in such a "base, disrespectful, offensive" manner.

Male or female, we've all done it. Thankfully our private conversation havent been ventilated to stoke faux public outrage.

Dick phelan

Who honestly cares what their attitudes to women are, like here's a newsflash there's probably a high proportion of sports stars that think similar. They can basically get any women they like the girls throw themselves at them, hard to say what your attitude would be towards women if that was your life. All i care about is Jackson's ability to play rugby. Looking to athletes to be shining lights of morality is stupid. Leave the man alone to get on with his life and career, maybe if the girl didn't throw herself so cheaply at them she might have got some respect. Respect is earned and if you act a certain way don't cry when you don't get it. Is Jackson a nice guy, no probably not but the same can probably be said for half the players.

SirGerryAdams

Did anyone else see Diageo saying they're concerned about London Irish signing Jackson because it doesn't match with their values?

While they employed Gareth Thomas for an advert who had admitted to shagging other men bareback behind his wife's back??

SirGerryAdams

Also what did they think of O'Garas comments about his wife? Treating her like a piece of meat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFZdQkDfEk0&t=54s

Note how all the ladies in the audience have no problem with it either.

brendanwalsh

These boys may have been found not guilty on a technicality but anyone who followed the trail in detail knew those two lads were guilty as sin. The poor girl was nearly skinned alive, being passed around like a slab of meat for 'the lads' to lay into.

The only justice is their careers are ruined while she can continue in her own successful career anonymously.

Outlaw Pete

All this talk about the lads texts and how we should take them so seriously, but yet the girls' texts to one another not so much, which I always found odd given the subject matter was 'what would you do if someone raped you'.

"If I ever get raped I am not going to the police. You've just got to find a way to blackmail or stab them or something"

The following one the day after the party I also thought was quite odd:

"Pretend you don't know they are from Ulster Rugby. Pretend you'd never seen them before."

ohnonotgmail

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

All this talk about the lads texts and how we should take them so seriously, but yet the girls' texts to one another not so much, which I always found odd given the subject matter was 'what would you do if someone raped you'.



The following one the day after the party I also thought was quite odd:

do you have a source for those quotes?

salmocab

brendanwalsh wrote: »

These boys may have been found not guilty on a technicality but anyone who followed the trail in detail knew those two lads were guilty as sin. The poor girl was nearly skinned alive, being passed around like a slab of meat for 'the lads' to lay into.

The only justice is their careers are ruined while she can continue in her own successful career anonymously.

Not sure lack of evidence is a technicality.

Yurt2

We don't have to like PJ and Olding, and the kindest thing that that can be said about them is that they behaved dishonourably that night, but a trial in front of your peers is the best thing we have to determine justice. If it didn't exist, we'd have to invent it for the sake of the administration of justice. They went through that process under the white-hot glare of the media in two countries and were found not guilty. That's all we have, we can do no better so these men have the right to get on with their lives - even if they behaved in a way that ought to attract scorn.

Roger Hassenforder

brendanwalsh wrote: »

These boys may have been found not guilty on a technicality but anyone who followed the trail in detail knew those two lads were guilty as sin. The poor girl was nearly skinned alive, being passed around like a slab of meat for 'the lads' to lay into.

The only justice is their careers are ruined while she can continue in her own successful career anonymously.

Most wrong post yet in this thread.
And thats some achievement.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

I know married middle aged women who talk about men - especially much younger men - in exactly the same way as these guys talked about women. Thats "liberated" though, whereas they are disgusting.

Fact is that there would never have been a trial if the other woman hadn't come in the room phone in hand. It was the social stigma of people finding out that made her say it was rape.

Sure these men have lots of sex with willing young women... They are rich young handsome celebrities. Of course they arent going to put much value on it. It's casual sex FFS. This is normal for them.

I’m sure there is. That would just as disgusting. I can assure you that I wouldn’t be defending them as “liberated”. A few men of my acquaintance were annoyed at the sentiment too that “sure, every man has talked that way with their friends!” and, yes, there were some comments to that effect at the time of the case and verdict. Introducing whataboutery here doesn’t help. They came across like massive cünts. The verdict was right and having a chronic case of cüntitis isn’t illegal but people are free to think of them in that way.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

What gets me is there are many here who profess never to have discussed sex, casual fcuking, good sex, bad sex, neighbours smoking fags sex, one night stands, members of the opposite sex, desires and fantasys, what they'd do to someone given half a chance etc. in such a "base, disrespectful, offensive" manner.

Male or female, we've all done it. Thankfully our private conversation havent been ventilated to stoke faux public outrage.

I can comfortably say I’ve never discussed sex in the manner they did. If you ever have, speak for yourself only.

SirGerryAdams

Let's see what the IRFU do about Sean O'Brien pissing on someone in a pub. Will he still get paid until the end of his contract? I bet he will..

Outlaw Pete

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

do you have a source for those quotes?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/rugby-rape-trial-friend-told-alleged-victim-she-would-blackmail-attacker-if-she-was-raped-36609892.html

ohnonotgmail

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/rugby-rape-trial-friend-told-alleged-victim-she-would-blackmail-attacker-if-she-was-raped-36609892.html

so none of those texts were sent by the woman who was allegedly raped.

Outlaw Pete

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so none of those texts were sent by the woman who was allegedly raped.

Did someone say they were?

Poor comprehension on your part there, chief. Here's what I said:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

All this talk about the lads texts and how we should take them so seriously, but yet the girls' texts to one another not so much, which I always found odd given the subject matter was 'what would you do if someone raped you'.

Wrongway1985

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/rugby-rape-trial-friend-told-alleged-victim-she-would-blackmail-attacker-if-she-was-raped-36609892.html

That was her friends opinion, she also says her feelings were due to the likes of what was happening there in court and that her friend wouldn't lie to her she felt she was telling the truth.

ohnonotgmail

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Did someone say they were?

Poor comprehension on your part there, chief. Here's what I said:

they were texts from witnesses at the trial to the girl that was allegedly raped. No mention of the alleged victim responding to them. The poster who originally posted those texts tried to make out that it was the alleged victim that sent them. I was just making it clear that was not the case.

selectamatic

dont bother wrote: »

it's in the court transcripts that she actually texted her mate BEFORE the night of the alleged rape to say that she hated paddy jackson and would do anything to "bring him down". she had a grudge against Ulster rugby BEFORE the night she was lucky enough to meet paddy et al,

selectamatic wrote: »

Is this true?

I don't think I've ever seen this mentioned before, and I've followed the thread here pretty closely.

Just while we're on the matter of the girls texts. I had a look and couldn't find any where the plaintiff said anything about Jackson specifically before the incident so I'd have my doubts as to the veracity of a claim a poster made on here the other day.

If anyone can find anything to the contrary please post it up.

ohnonotgmail

selectamatic wrote: »

Just while we're on the matter of the girls texts. I had a look and couldn't find any where the plaintiff said anything about Jackson specifically before the incident so I'd have my doubts as to the veracity of a claim a poster made on here the other day.

If anyone can find anything to the contrary please post it up.

there is no mention of a text mentioning paddy and the other texts that poster mentioned were not sent by the alleged victim.

selectamatic

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there is no mention of a text mentioning paddy and the other texts that poster mentioned were not sent by the alleged victim.

I was referring to the post by "dont bother"
I just wanted to clear that up because misinformation doesn't do anyone any good.


Outlaw Pete's link does mention that the alleged victim had sent a text talking about rape statistics when replying to texts sent by her friend on the subject of rape 10 days prior to the incident.

facehugger99

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Did someone say they were?

Poor comprehension on your part there, chief. Here's what I said:

You were caught good and proper son.

You tried to imply that the girl who was raped said it.

Faugheen

selectamatic wrote: »

I was referring to the post by "dont bother"
I just wanted to clear that up because misinformation doesn't do anyone any good.

It wasn’t ‘misinformation’.

It was complete and utter bullsh*t.

Wrongway1985

selectamatic wrote: »

Outlaw Pete's link does mention that the alleged victim had sent a text talking about rape statistics when replying to texts sent by her friend on the subject of rape 10 days prior to the incident.

You think this is suspect? I'm in my mid thirties the females in my circle of friends commonly discuss this sort of stuff. I would hazard a guess it isn't exclusive to them.

Outlaw Pete

facehugger99 wrote: »

You were caught good and proper son.

You tried to imply that the girl who was raped said it.

I said the texts were sent between the girls and they were and when asked for a source with further info, I provided one.

'Caught good and proper son'. Think you've been watching too many repeats of The Sweeney.