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Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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    #212
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    jm08 wrote: »
    ''it takes a village to raise a child''
    Hilary Clinton even wrote a book about it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village

    .

    What a truly bizzare and ironic reference in the context, of decrying the inappropriate behaviour of others...


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    #213
    BBDBB
    Registered Users Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    jm08 wrote: »
    Willie John is old school. What rugby players got away with back in the 60s/70s, they wouldn't now (i.e., pissed drunk, smashing up hotels etc.). IRFU got it wrong over a tour to SA during apartheid as well. Willie John lead World XV as manager as late as 1989 during apartheid (I don't think there were any Irish players on it). He certainly didn't always got it right.


    so off to France with him? Exile is the only solution for bad boys after all. He'd like two weeks in the Dordogne an July if possible?


    Willie John is old school, but he is enormously and rightly proud of his Ireland caps. If he is prepared to allow PJ and SO wear that shirt then thats a much weightier endorsement than the views of a lawyer who hasn't represented her country and doesnt sound like a rugby fan. (Could be wrong on that one)


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    #214
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    winteremerald wrote: »
    Is this the same group that want Irish law changed due to a case in a foreign jurisdiction ?

    I don't think so.


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    #215
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    BBDBB wrote: »
    so off to France with him? Exile is the only solution for bad boys after all. He'd like two weeks in the Dordogne an July if possible?

    Willie John is old school, but he is enormously and rightly proud of his Ireland caps. If he is prepared to allow PJ and SO wear that shirt then thats a much weightier endorsement than the views of a lawyer who hasn't represented her country and doesnt sound like a rugby fan. (Could be wrong on that one)

    I always saw Willie John as more of a Lions legend than an Ireland one (winning a series in NZ would have been a big deal). He didn't win anything much with Ireland, so not a lot to be proud of there.

    The rest is nonsense.

    It would be interesting to know what Syd Miller thinks though.


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    #216
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    jm08 wrote:
    Noeleen Blackwell is a fairly distingushed career as a Human Rights lawer and as a former Director General of Free Legal Aid. You won't get away so easily dismissing her as a 'feminnazi', 'mob' or the usual stuff you use to try and denigrate people.

    You can't say that she doesn't have bias or an agenda.

    NAGDEFI wrote:
    Exactly. So stop repeating the point that a twitterati group are forcing Jackson and Olding out of a job. It's not true. 2/3rds of the irish public don't want them representing Ireland. Not these twitter groups who have taken over the country, by all accounts.

    2/3rds of the irish public haven't been asked and the outraged twitteratti are all we are hearing from.


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    #217
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    jm08 wrote: »
    I bet PJ & his pals respect their mothers. But they have been able to objectify women, probably from watching porn.

    Respect is a two street. People must have respect for themselves.

    How many times has Brian from Accounts Payable, or Andrew from Distribution and Logistics been passed up on, by the local talent in their rush to have a crack at the local sports stars, who themselves have been "objectified" by these lovely ladies, and to "be seen about town" with said sports star.

    It happens in every sport, every walk of life, every socioeconomic demographic.


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    #218
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    You can't say that she doesn't have bias or an agenda.

    Everyone has agenda (including you).

    2/3rds of the irish public haven't been asked and the outraged twitteratti are all we are hearing from.

    You think we should have a referendum on it then, do you?

    Ms Blackwell is far from being an outraged twitteratti! Thats the last thing you will pin on her.


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    #219
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Respect is a two street. People must have respect for themselves.

    Could not agree more.
    How many times has Brian from Accounts Payable, or Andrew from Distribution and Logistics been passed up on, by the local talent in their rush to have a crack at the local sports stars, who themselves have been "objectified" by these lovely ladies, and to "be seen about town" with said sports star.

    Plenty of sports stars manage to fight them off and lead lives like decent human beings.
    It happens in every sport, every walk of life, every socioeconomic demographic.

    That doesn't make it right.


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    #220
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    Exactly. So stop repeating the point that a twitterati group are forcing Jackson and Olding out of a job. It's not true. 2/3rds of the irish public don't want them representing Ireland.

    Just would like a link to your status there that 2/3rds of the Irish public don't want them representing ireland.
    I don't recall being asked to vote on this. Or any of my friends.
    Just so we are clear there is an approximate number of around 6 million people on the entire island of Ireland. The figure you claim is therefore 4 million people who don't want them to play for Ireland. 4 million people.
    So where did you get this figure?
    It wasn't a twitter poll by any chance?


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    #221
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »




    2/3rds of the irish public haven't been asked and the outraged twitteratti are all we are hearing from.

    They have Jimmy in 2 independent polls of 1,000 people this week. Roughly 2/3 of the average man or woman on the street don't want the boys representing Ireland.


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    #222
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    mfceiling wrote: »
    It wasn't a twitter poll by any chance?

    I think the poll was one done by Amarach Research for Claire Byrne Live on RTE on whether they should play for Ireland. 1000 by telephone. Think it was 55% No, 26% Yes, Rest Undecided.

    Amarach claim to be within a range of +/-3%.


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    #223
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Just would like a link to your status there that 2/3rds of the Irish public don't want them representing ireland.
    I don't recall being asked to vote on this. Or any of my friends.
    Just so we are clear there is an approximate number of around 6 million people on the entire island of Ireland. The figure you claim is therefore 4 million people who don't want them to play for Ireland. 4 million people.
    So where did you get this figure?
    It wasn't a twitter poll by any chance?

    Maybe you don't listen to Current Affairs programmes but 2 opinion polls of ordinary irish people, accurate 3% each way.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/jackson-and-olding-poll-3949171-Apr2018/


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    #224
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Just would like a link to your status there that 2/3rds of the Irish public don't want them representing ireland.
    I don't recall being asked to vote on this. Or any of my friends.
    Just so we are clear there is an approximate number of around 6 million people on the entire island of Ireland. The figure you claim is therefore 4 million people who don't want them to play for Ireland. 4 million people.
    So where did you get this figure?
    It wasn't a twitter poll by any chance?

    I presume you've heard of representative polls mcfeckling? They ask people, just like you and your friends.


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    #225
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jm08 wrote: »
    She was brought on to address Willie John McBride's comments.



    Noeleen Blackwell is a fairly distingushed career as a Human Rights lawer and as a former Director General of Free Legal Aid. You won't get away so easily dismissing her as a 'feminnazi', 'mob' or the usual stuff you use to try and denigrate people.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/flac-boss-noeline-blackwell-to-move-to-rape-crisis-charity-1.2506804

    I don't care who or what she is.

    The item was introduced as a response to the new info.

    She discussed that and then went on to rant, male responsibility and about male rugby.

    If she was serious about her remit she would also address the responsibilities of women in staying safe.

    She didn't.


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    #226
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    If she was serious about her remit she would also address the responsibilities of women in staying safe.

    She didn't.

    Why don't you address it so? Tell me what my responsibility is in staying safe?


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    #227
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Just would like a link to your status there that 2/3rds of the Irish public don't want them representing ireland.
    I don't recall being asked to vote on this. Or any of my friends.
    Just so we are clear there is an approximate number of around 6 million people on the entire island of Ireland. The figure you claim is therefore 4 million people who don't want them to play for Ireland. 4 million people.
    So where did you get this figure?
    It wasn't a twitter poll by any chance?

    For one so opinionated you really need to keep abreast of current affairs. Opinions with no knowledge behind them, like your quotation, and mathematical deductions above are useless.

    And again one doesn't have to be asked personally with regards to opinion polls. You have heard of political opinion polls being used for over a century haven't you?

    Apart from knowing who Joe Schmidt is there's a whole world of knowledge out there.


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    #228
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Why don't you address it so? Tell me what my responsibility is in staying safe?

    Discussed earlier in the thread.

    And it isn't my 'remit/job' to prevent/reduce rape.


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    #229
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,189 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Why don't you address it so? Tell me what my responsibility is in staying safe?

    The safest thing you could do is not fall asleep for a start...


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    #230
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Discussed earlier in the thread.

    And it isn't my 'remit/job' to prevent/reduce rape.

    You seem to think it's women's


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    #231
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    winteremerald wrote: »
    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Why don't you address it so? Tell me what my responsibility is in staying safe?

    I would suggest not getting blind drunk and passing out in the street.

    What if she's spiked? How would you know if this happened if you made flippant reactions like above?

    I actually think some people here are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Every point that is made they've something non-substantial to respond with, and it eventually stems to victim blaming comments like above ^


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    #232
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Why don't you address it so? Tell me what my responsibility is in staying safe?

    Dare I be so bold as to advise you not get drunk and not to leave night clubs with strange men if you are plastered. Dont follow them up to their bedrooms because this might have them conclude that you are going somewhere private with them to do something that requires privacy. You will lose your inhibitions but thats the alcohols affect, you may then do something you regret but you cant call that rape.

    Thats taking personal responsibility for your safety, you cant do anything about other peoples behaviour but you can change your own.


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    #233
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,241 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    tretorn wrote: »
    Dare I be so bold as to advise you not get drunk and not to leave night clubs with strange men if you are plastered. Dont follow them up to their bedrooms because this might have them conclude that you are going somewhere private with them to do something that requires privacy. You will lose your inhibitions but thats the alcohols affect, you may then do something you regret but you cant call that rape.

    Thats taking personal responsibility for your safety, you cant do anything about other peoples behaviour but you can change your own.

    So, can I ask you George, do you you ever think you'll get your drivetime slot back on Newstalk?


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    #234
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    tretorn wrote: »
    Dare I be so bold as to advise you not get drunk and not to leave night clubs with strange men if you are plastered. Dont follow them up to their bedrooms because this might have them conclude that you are going somewhere private with them to do something that requires privacy. You will lose your inhibitions but thats the alcohols affect, you may then do something you regret but you cant call that rape.

    Thats taking personal responsibility for your safety, you cant do anything about other peoples behaviour but you can change your own.

    So... assume all men are potential rapists?

    That seems a little unfair to the majority of men who aren't.


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    #235
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Noeline Blackwell as head of the rape crisis centre was not an unbiased person so she should not have been given a platform to talk about whatsapp messages. If she had a problem with the word slut being used then she should have mentioned that it was very wrong of the woman in the rape case to call other women sluts. You cant have feminists making it a sackable offence for using the word slut if its said by a man but then ignore it if its said by a woman.

    WE dont need to hear anymore from Noeline Blackwell about the Belfast case, she is paid to advocate for rape victims so this is what she should be doing. Sacking Jackson and Olding is not going to help rape victims in anyway, Jackson and Olding are not rapists and nor are they a danger to women so why is a woman running a rape crisis centre making her way to a studio to talk about whatsapp messages sent by young men to other young men.


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    #236
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    B0jangles wrote: »
    So... assume all men are potential rapists?

    That seems a little unfair to the majority of men who aren't.

    Its not assuming anything, its about taking personal responsibilty for your safety, I would give the same advice to young men except they are in more danger of getting a punch in the head than they are of being raped.

    Leaving a night club drunk and travelling to the home of men you dont know is risky behaviour, doing it while you are drunk with your inhibitions lowered is even more risky.

    Noeline Blackwell would be better off going on the radio and giving the alcohol levels of the women who present at rape clinics. If the majority of the women are highly intoxicated or have taken drugs or maybe are drunk and drugged then their behaviour is part of the problem.

    This would do a lot more to prevent rape than coming on radio to waffle about bragging text messages sent by men who are generally very nice people.

    Remember Rory Harrison helped an old lady across the road, he is a nice guy lol


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    #237
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    tretorn wrote: »
    Noeline Blackwell as head of the rape crisis centre was not an unbiased person so she should not have been given a platform to talk about whatsapp messages. If she had a problem with the word slut being used then she should have mentioned that it was very wrong of the woman in the rape case to call other women sluts. You cant have feminists making it a sackable offence for using the word slut if its said by a man but then ignore it if its said by a woman.

    WE dont need to hear anymore from Noeline Blackwell about the Belfast case, she is paid to advocate for rape victims so this is what she should be doing. Sacking Jackson and Olding is not going to help rape victims in anyway, Jackson and Olding are not rapists and nor are they a danger to women so why is a woman running a rape crisis centre making her way to a studio to talk about whatsapp messages sent by young men to other young men.

    Why do you need unbiased person. This is not referendum campaign where you need some sort of a balance.

    Btw do you actually understand a difference between a slut and slutty behaviour? For example if I call you a moron I would be carded but if I say your post is moronic I am attacking the post not the poster. However if you claim it's all the same then who am I to argue...


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    #238
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    B0jangles wrote: »
    So... assume all men are potential rapists?

    That seems a little unfair to the majority of men who aren't.

    I assume everyone is a car thief - that is why I lock the thing everywhere I go.


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    #239
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    B0jangles wrote: »
    So... assume all men are potential rapists?

    That seems a little unfair to the majority of men who aren't.

    Since when are you concerned with that being unfair? Of course what the poster means is that you cant possibly know which men, of the incredibly small proportion of men who rape, from the ones who do. They tend not to wear signs. But you knew that before twisting the posters words.


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    #240
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Why do you need unbiased person. This is not referendum campaign where you need some sort of a balance.

    Btw do you actually understand a difference between a slut and slutty behaviour? For example if I call you a moron I would be carded but if I say your post is moronic I am attacking the post not the poster. However if you claim it's all the same then who am I to argue...

    Who carries out 'slutty' behaviour?


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    #241
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    tretorn wrote: »
    Its not assuming anything, its about taking personal responsibilty for your safety, I would give the same advice to young men except they are in more danger of getting a punch in the head than they are of being raped.

    Leaving a night club drunk and travelling to the home of men you dont know is risky behaviour, doing it while you are drunk with your inhibitions lowered is even more risky.

    Noeline Blackwell would be better off going on the radio and giving the alcohol levels of the women who present at rape clinics. If the majority of the women are highly intoxicated or have taken drugs or maybe are drunk and drugged then their behaviour is part of the problem.

    This would do a lot more to prevent rape than coming on radio to waffle about bragging text messages sent by men who are generally very nice people.

    Remember Rory Harrison helped an old lady across the road, he is a nice guy lol

    You are saying that if women don't want to get raped they shouldn't be alone with strange men - ergo they should assume that all men are rapists.

    I would have thought the lads around here would be a bit more bullish about defending the good name of Irish men, unless they agree that women should assume all men are rapists?

    Seems a bit extreme to me, but hey.


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