thousands to lose homes or thousands to lose their free living scam?

CeilingFly

l headline form the indo
Thousands risk losing their homes
https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/thousands-risk-losing-their-homes-as-they-fail-to-confront-longterm-arrears-36791883.html

Sorry, when you have paid NOTHING for 5 years and refuse to engage with the lender, its not your home. You are scamming the taxpayer and those paying high standard variable rates.

No-one has an issue with those trying their best and engaging with lenders and coming to new arrangements, but isn't time to kick the strategic defaulters who have paid NOT ONE CENT for year out of their free accomodation?

Remember, unless you are on a tracker rate. YOU are paying for these scammers through higher lending rates than there should be

donegaLroad

CeilingFly wrote: »

l headline form the indo
Thousands risk losing their homes
https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/thousands-risk-losing-their-homes-as-they-fail-to-confront-longterm-arrears-36791883.html

Sorry, when you have paid NOTHING for 5 years and refuse to engage with the lender, its not your home. You are scamming the taxpayer and those paying high standard variable rates.

No-one has an issue with those trying their best and engaging with lenders and coming to new arrangements, but isn't time to kick the strategic defaulters who have paid NOT ONE CENT for year out of their free accomodation?

Remember, unless you are on a tracker rate. YOU are paying for these scammers through higher lending rates than there should be

I do not believe for one minute, that the banks in this country will lower the interest rates once they sort out the defaulters issue.

kneemos

donegaLroad wrote: »

I do not believe for one minute, that the banks in this country will lower the interest rates once they sort out the defaulters issue.

Competitors with lower rates aren't interested coming in with this kind of carry on though.

Cuddlesworth

donegaLroad wrote: »

I do not believe for one minute, that the banks in this country will lower the interest rates once they sort out the defaulters issue.

The main issue for European lenders entering our market is how difficult it is to actually collect on the dept. Competition leads to better prices.

It's about Goddamn time we do some repossessions. A case I always use an example from a few years ago on The Late Late Show; couple with a few kids, 2 cars, built a nice McMansion. He lost his job, then her. Well over €2k a month going in, no-one working, both cars still running and they stopped paying the mortgage. I know people with small mortgages and every time there's arrears there's a song and dance (well under €30k owed) and the bank spends more on the time for phone calls etc. than how much they lose out on for a hundred quid being a week late. Pay nothing and ignore them and so far there's no downside.

howamidifferent

No sympathy for the people with 5 years arrears and no intention of engaging. Should be a blanket eviction order given and turf everyone of them out. They should all have a nice few bob squared away having lived rent free for the past 5 years...Let them fend for themselves.

boombang

If you listened to the Morning Ireland interview with the Deputy Head of the Central Bank on the radio this morning you'd swear the only consumer issue was those people who would have to face the consequences of not paying for their homes. I think the RTE coverage is totally biased in favour of those not meeting their responsibility and doesn't consider the costs passed on to mortgage holders that do pay and the tax payers that have indirectly supported this through the state ownership of much of the banks.

Hooks Golf Handicap

Lady in our estate stopped paying in 2010.
Vacated house in 2015 once bank agreed to write off debt.
House only up for sale last month, now damp, moldy, broken windows & ransacked inside.

If that were the US it would have been foreclosed after 3 months of missed payments & back on the market.
And they wonder why there's no homes for millennials.

robarmstrong

Whilst I understand some people go through untold amounts of debt, anyone who doesn't attempt to reconcile with the bank and attempt to reach a resolution with them fully deserves to have their house taken off them tbh, you shouldn't get to live in a house you're refusing to pay a cent for.

suicide_circus

The half in/half out approach the government takes to the market results in neither a free market nor a socialist utopia. Worst of both worlds.

CeilingFly

donegaLroad wrote: »

I do not believe for one minute, that the banks in this country will lower the interest rates once they sort out the defaulters issue.

Santander bank of Spain and Sparkasses of Germany looked at entering Ireland and bringing lower rates.
When they saw how difficult it was to repossess from a defaulter, they walked away. Competition for customers brings better rates and once a bank offers lower rates and can make a profit from that lower rate, all other banks tend to follow suit.

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

If that were the US it would have been foreclosed after 3 months of missed payments & back on the market.
And they wonder why there's no homes for millennials.

Not just the US, but most normalised markets. In France it would be extremely rare to be able to go 6 months without dialogue and still be in the house. And if you suddenly start dialogue after ignoring them for 6 months, they don't care. And because this is well known, anyone in difficulty there contacts their bank immediately to come to an agreement.

I just wish the media and the government would stop pandering to these scammers and permit automatic repossession to anyone who has not engaged with the bank and has not paid for over 12 months.

JohnnyFlash

I’m holding out for my forever home, and I ain’t going paying for it either. Cause I’ve been told that everyone is entitled to a free gaff, and that someone else should pay for it.

Wheety

You can thank all the populist politicians. They don't really care about these people. Just whip them up into a frenzy, telling them they're owed a house and they're owed free, clean water and if anyone tries to evict them or make them pay, they're big evil corporations.

Surefire way of getting elected again next time with their us v them game.

These people, defaulting on their loans or others being told not to pay rent as there's nothing anyone can do about it for a couple of years, should be evicted. There are plenty of people out there who would pay.

Wheeliebin30

Welcome to the new Ireland where personal responsibility is a thing of the past.

Country is going one way with the entitlement culture.

Uncharted

It's de gubberment I blame...... and de fordiners.

beefburrito

New cars, two sun holiday's a year...

No mortgage payments, it's a well know fact Jimmy and Mary down the road are 6 year's in debt but still going to Peter Mark's...

Great country

A quarter of the thread on boards are about a tiny amount of people and situations. Why no threads on the 90% of people who pay their mortgages no problems.

donegaLroad

Irish mortgage rates are still nearly double euro-area average.

whiskeyman

mariaalice wrote: »

A quarter of the thread on boards are about a tiny amount of people and situations. Why no threads on the 90% of people who pay their mortgages no problems.

Because the actions of a minority can have devastating consequences on the majority

WHIP IT!

mariaalice wrote: »

A quarter of the thread on boards are about a tiny amount of people and situations. Why no threads on the 90% of people who pay their mortgages no problems.

What exactly would those threads say, Luv?

"Friend of mine and her husband paid the mortgage and the gas there the other day... flash c*nts!"

hmmm

The defaulters are the reason our mortgage interest rates are so high. Everyone else is paying for them.

Someone who has paid 50 quid towards their mortgage over 10 years is taking the piss.

ChikiChiki

mariaalice wrote: »

A quarter of the thread on boards are about a tiny amount of people and situations. Why no threads on the 90% of people who pay their mortgages no problems.

Ridiculous post. Well done lads paying your mortagages and covering of the 10%.

WHIP IT!

WHIP IT! wrote: »

What exactly would those threads say, Luv?

"Friend of mine and her husband paid the mortgage and the gas there the other day... flash c*nts!"

Exactly because that it the life of the vast majority, there is a tiny amount not paying their mortgage, scamming the system or what every, yes they need to be dealt with but the forming at the mouth fury along with the anecdotes are laughable.

Yet, we see the madness of the Celtic Tiger returning. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/in-pictures-desperate-househunters-queue-outside-new-dublin-development-days-ahead-of-sale-36792964.html

donegaLroad

hmmm wrote: »

The defaulters are the reason our mortgage interest rates are so high. Everyone else is paying for them.

Someone who has paid 50 quid towards their mortgage over 10 years is taking the piss.

I bought my house in 2006, and the intetest rate is roughly the same today as is was back then. 2006 is before all this defaulting began.

I haven't missed one payment btw.


The question is, why are Irish interest rates twice the European average?

banie01

At the start of 2009 when news of mortgage defaults and arrears became known in financial circles there was a view taken that a substantial hit was incoming to banks balance sheets.
The imterest rates continuing above Euro averages are a reflection of that risk being priced into the market offerings.
The MABS process and the screaming of PBP and other put the impact of these arrears on the long finger.
The typical Irish response of kicking the can down the road, along with apportioning a significant portion of the blame to the banks for engaging in reckless lending.

At its simplest, a mortgage, ANY mortgage is a security backed loan based on the value of the secured property.
To have a functioning property market, both for property sales and rentals it is imperative that non performing mortgage holders face a process that includes actual foreclosure.
Why any commercial entity would engage in lending into the Irish market is beyond me.
It is a hugely difficult task to gain a repossession order, it then becomes an emotional and publicity bombshell when any such order is attempted to be enforced.
There is a rallying cry to raise resistance to people losing their homes...
Well its not theirs is it?
They were afforded a degree of credit to allow its purchase, and where someone fails to meet their loan terms banks need to be able to repossess the propertt, crystallize any loss and get the property back to market again as quickly as possible to ensure continuity both of credit availabilty and gousing supply.

As it stands so many mortgages are in arrears and long fingered that the pillar banks are in actuality acting as a quasi social housing landlord by not initiating proceedings!
These mortgages should by right be included on housing wait list figures as the mortgage holders will need near immediate rehousing if ever evicted.
By it via social housing or rental support programmes.

The volume of housing stock and actual capital tied up in non performing mortgages could very quickly have a significant economic impact if rectified.
And the provisions made for impaired loans by "our" banks could be crystalized and balance sheets corrected fairly rapidly if the mortgage market was allowed function in a rational manner.

donegaLroad

donegaLroad wrote: »

I bought my house in 2006, and the intetest rate is roughly the same today as is was back then. 2006 is before all this defaulting began.

I haven't missed one payment btw.


The question is, why are Irish interest rates twice the European average?

Mostly the "defaulters".
If you have 90% of loans being repaid instead of, say, 97%, that's 3 times as much of a loss. We just don't have actual defaulting.

silverharp

no sympathy , 5 to 10 years mortgage stashed away is a tidy sum, repo them and let the generation behind have a chance

Chips Lovell

donegaLroad wrote: »

I bought my house in 2006, and the intetest rate is roughly the same today as is was back then. 2006 is before all this defaulting began.

The rate shouldn't be the same. It should be less.

Take a look at what the ECB rate was in 2006 relative to what it is today.

Irish mortgage lenders haven't been passing on ECB rate cuts.

Assetbacked

boombang wrote: »

If you listened to the Morning Ireland interview with the Deputy Head of the Central Bank on the radio this morning you'd swear the only consumer issue was those people who would have to face the consequences of not paying for their homes. I think the RTE coverage is totally biased in favour of those not meeting their responsibility and doesn't consider the costs passed on to mortgage holders that do pay and the tax payers that have indirectly supported this through the state ownership of much of the banks.

This, for me, is the single-biggest reason I can see the current government taking a hammering in the next election and being surprised that they do. Their support base of "middle classes" (i.e. "those that get up in the morning") is what they rely on but they will lose a lot of these people. The people who have moved from abroad to Ireland for work are likely unable to vote so those foreign "tech company" workers, in a good position within the economy, cannot support the government.

There is anger there among ordinary working people, particularly with the last patronising budget where workers were rewarded with a pathetic tax cut, worth nothing to their wallets; while the dole was raised for people not currently working and paying taxes.

suicide_circus

Assetbacked wrote: »

This, for me, is the single-biggest reason I can see the current government taking a hammering in the next election and being surprised that they do. Their support base of "middle classes" (i.e. "those that get up in the morning") is what they rely on but they will lose a lot of these people. The people who have moved from abroad to Ireland for work are likely unable to vote so those foreign "tech company" workers, in a good position within the economy, cannot support the government.

There is anger there among ordinary working people, particularly with the last patronising budget where workers were rewarded with a pathetic tax cut...

Agreed but what is the alternative? FG and FF are essentially the same party and the rest of the parties are the types that push for legislation that results in the non functioning housing market described in this thread and who are certainly not fans of the people who get up in the morning?

Ipso

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The rate shouldn't be the same. It should be less.

Take a look at what the ECB rate was in 2006 relative to what it is today.

Irish mortgage lenders haven't been passing on ECB rate cuts.

As has been mentioned in the past, as long as there are long term non performing mortgages you can kiss lower rates goodbye.
No business will charge lower rates when there is the risk of non payment.

Assetbacked

suicide_circus wrote: »

Agreed but what is the alternative? FG and FF are essentially the same party and the rest of the parties are the types that push for legislation that results in the non functioning housing market described in this thread and who are certainly not fans of the people who get up in the morning?

Voter apathy or protest voting is the consequence in the absence of a proposed solution. A proposed solution could come in the form of populism or an independent with a stance that fits in with the individual so we would have a rake of independents and only 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc priorities going to FF/FG.

Trigger Happy

Ipso wrote: »

As has been mentioned in the past, as long as there are long term non performing mortgages you can kiss lower rates goodbye.
No business will charge lower rates when there is the risk of non payment.

You can keep explaining this time and time again but some people just dont want to hear or even try to understand.

suicide_circus

Assetbacked wrote: »

Voter apathy or protest voting is the consequence in the absence of a proposed solution. A proposed solution could come in the form of populism or an independent with a stance that fits in with the individual so we would have a rake of independents and only 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc priorities going to FF/FG.

All the populism in this country is of the "Can't Pay - Won't Pay" variety. I don't see the independents in the current government breaking any ground for middle income families at the moment. We're just not a sexy news topic. The media likes stories about whatever leftist hobby horse is currently de rigueur. Leo was unmasked as an out and out spoofer in terms of his rhetoric about those that get up in the morning.

What.Now

CeilingFly wrote: »

Santander bank of Spain and Sparkasses of Germany looked at entering Ireland and bringing lower rates.
When they saw how difficult it was to repossess from a defaulter, they walked away. Competition for customers brings better rates and once a bank offers lower rates and can make a profit from that lower rate, all other banks tend to follow suit.




Not just the US, but most normalised markets. In France it would be extremely rare to be able to go 6 months without dialogue and still be in the house. And if you suddenly start dialogue after ignoring them for 6 months, they don't care. And because this is well known, anyone in difficulty there contacts their bank immediately to come to an agreement.

I just wish the media and the government would stop pandering to these scammers and permit automatic repossession to anyone who has not engaged with the bank and has not paid for over 12 months.

One of the problems here is that the banks won't engage until you have missed 3 months payments and then from there the phone calls start and the pressure and the warnings and the threats and the solicitor letters and so forth...

If you go to the bank and tell them your in danger of missing next months payment they don't care, it's as if it's a policy they have. Let them get into **** first and then we negotiate.

Ipso

suicide_circus wrote: »

All the populism in this country is of the "Can't Pay - Won't Pay" variety. I don't see the independents in the current government breaking any ground for middle income families at the moment. We're just not a sexy news topic. The media likes stories about whatever leftist hobby horse is currently de rigueur. Leo was unmasked as an out and out spoofer in terms of his rhetoric about those that get up in the morning.

They are from the magical bottomless pit of money brigade. Absolutely nothing to offer.

What.Now

What.Now wrote: »

One of the problems here is that the banks won't engage until you have missed 3 months payments and then from there the phone calls start and the pressure and the warnings and the threats and the solicitor letters and so forth...

If you go to the bank and tell them your in danger of missing next months payment they don't care, it's as if it's a policy they have. Let them get into **** first and then we negotiate.

Missing the point a bit, there should be no negotiation regarding the mortgage if someone cant pay then the house is either repossessed or sold and the mortgage paid off is what the posters want.

Uncharted

Wacker and Shelly can't be expected to pay their bills AND keep the bookies/pub going while they feed their 60 johnny blues a day habit.

Especially with him on the disability.

Uncharted

Uncharted wrote: »

Wacker and Shelly can't be expected to pay their bills AND keep the bookies/pub going while they feed their 60 johnny blues a day habit.

Especially with him on the disability.

How did they get a mortgage in the first place?

Hitman3000

mariaalice wrote:

A quarter of the thread on boards are about a tiny amount of people and situations. Why no threads on the 90% of people who pay their mortgages no problems.

The permanently outraged need something to vent their outrage, sure I might start up a social welfare bashing thread I haven't seen one in 3 days. Surely one is due?

namloc1980

What.Now wrote: »

One of the problems here is that the banks won't engage until you have missed 3 months payments and then from there the phone calls start and the pressure and the warnings and the threats and the solicitor letters and so forth...

If you go to the bank and tell them your in danger of missing next months payment they don't care, it's as if it's a policy they have. Let them get into **** first and then we negotiate.

That is not true at all. Under the Code of Conduct for Mortgage Arrears lenders are legally obligated to engage the very next day after a payment is missed and legally obligated to write to the customer outlining their arrears and potential resolution options after 30 days and every 90 days thereafter as well making every effort to make phone contact. If you know of lenders not doing this you should immediately report it to the Central Bank.

suicide_circus

mariaalice wrote: »

How did they get a mortgage in the first place?

Some bank manager probably put a gun to their head

Hitman3000

donegaLroad wrote:

The question is, why are Irish interest rates twice the European average?

'Treasure Ireland' to borrow a phrase from a Tesco executive.

banie01

suicide_circus wrote: »

All the populism in this country is of the "Can't Pay - Won't Pay" variety.

It makes one wonder if those particular populists ever heard of Mazdak or the Gracchi brothers!
And then wonder if their own fates are at all foreshadowed!

_Kaiser_

This is what happens when you have a country obsessed with owning property as the ultimate metric of success and achievement

- It's seen as a "right" regardless of your ability to actually pay for it
- The rental market is a disaster because everyone sees it as something to put up with on the glorious road to ownership, rather than the long term viable-in-itself option it SHOULD be. It doesn't help that many of the decision makers (TD's) are landlords themselves and doing quite well out of it again
- When your obsession with property results in sub-prime lending, you crash the economy and everyone else picks up the tab

Until Ireland gets past the idea that everyone should be able to (and should be entitled to!) buy property, then property will continue to cause serious problems in this country.

Graces7

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is what happens when you have a country obsessed with owning property as the ultimate metric of success and achievement

- It's seen as a "right" regardless of your ability to actually pay for it
- The rental market is a disaster because everyone sees it as something to put up with on the glorious road to ownership, rather than the long term viable-in-itself option it SHOULD be. It doesn't help that many of the decision makers (TD's) are landlords themselves and doing quite well out of it again
- When your obsession with property results in sub-prime lending, you crash the economy and everyone else picks up the tab

Until Ireland gets past the idea that everyone should be able to (and should be entitled to!) buy property, then property will continue to cause serious problems in this country.

Excellent post. Thank you

Ipso

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is what happens when you have a country obsessed with owning property as the ultimate metric of success and achievement

- It's seen as a "right" regardless of your ability to actually pay for it
- The rental market is a disaster because everyone sees it as something to put up with on the glorious road to ownership, rather than the long term viable-in-itself option it SHOULD be. It doesn't help that many of the decision makers (TD's) are landlords themselves and doing quite well out of it again
- When your obsession with property results in sub-prime lending, you crash the economy and everyone else picks up the tab

Until Ireland gets past the idea that everyone should be able to (and should be entitled to!) buy property, then property will continue to cause serious problems in this country.

But owning property is smart and ballsy, especially when you borrow everything.

Franz Von Peppercorn

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is what happens when you have a country obsessed with owning property as the ultimate metric of success and achievement

- It's seen as a "right" regardless of your ability to actually pay for it
- The rental market is a disaster because everyone sees it as something to put up with on the glorious road to ownership, rather than the long term viable-in-itself option it SHOULD be. It doesn't help that many of the decision makers (TD's) are landlords themselves and doing quite well out of it again
- When your obsession with property results in sub-prime lending, you crash the economy and everyone else picks up the tab

Until Ireland gets past the idea that everyone should be able to (and should be entitled to!) buy property, then property will continue to cause serious problems in this country.

This last point is nonsense. We don’t think everybody should be able to buy - hence social housing. And Ireland has relatively low home ownership by European standards.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-home-ownership-rates.html

Franz Von Peppercorn

Ipso wrote: »

But owning property is smart and ballsy, especially when you borrow everything.

It’s better than the alternative in Ireland. Most countries actually.

Rather than expect the population to stop buying rather than renting ( which is unusual in most countries except the Germanic countries) you need stability of tenure. Not 4 years. 20 years.

silverharp

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The rate shouldn't be the same. It should be less.

Take a look at what the ECB rate was in 2006 relative to what it is today.

Irish mortgage lenders haven't been passing on ECB rate cuts.

before the current voodoo economics banks were a market maker between borrowers and savers , central banks have decided to penalise savers, the current mortgage rate is cheap