Boyfriend issue

leggo

kylith wrote: »

C) there are other, non assaulty, ways of waking someone up to see if they’d like to have sex rather than going straight for the genitalia. Why not try those instead?

This! I love morning sex (probably more than any other time)! But like...I wait until they’re awake before starting!

Jasper79

leggo wrote: »

Lads I’m a bloke who’s had sex with my share and I’m telling you: this stuff is not difficult! Just don’t have sex with someone unless you’re sure beforehand* that they want to. If in doubt? Ask! If they’re asleep, you can’t possibly know that. This has genuinely never caused me any difficulty in my life, I don’t see how it breaks some people’s brains tbh.

I don’t get the sleep thing. I’d feel so creepy mounting, or feeling up, someone who was unconscious. Partner or not.

And sexual assault isn’t extreme, it’s what it is, particularly in the OP’s case when she specifically said no. Again the law is not grey in this area, it’s really clear.

*That beforehand is why my post isn’t a contradiction. It doesn’t matter what they say afterwards, consent isn’t a retrospective thing. You have to be sure before anything happens that’s they’re happy with what you’re doing. That’s it.

In the ops case he stopped when she said no, so yes I would say calling it sexual assault is a bit OTT.

TheChizler

Jasper79 wrote: »

In the ops case he stopped when she said no, so yes I would say calling it sexual assault is a bit OTT.

Are you saying that undoes what happened while she was unconscious? What would make it assault in your book, continuing on when she woke up and said no, but nothing less? Consent is an active yes (explicit or implied through actions), not lack of a no.

OP for me this ticks every box as being wrong and illegal, you'd be fully in your rights to be angry about this.

Jasper79

TheChizler wrote: »

Are you saying that undoes what happened while she was unconscious? What would make it assault in your book, continuing on when she woke up and said no, but nothing less? Consent is an active yes (explicit or implied through actions), not lack of a no.

OP for me this ticks every box as being wrong and illegal, you'd be fully in your rights to be angry about this.

To me there is an implied level of consent when in a relationship. If it's new the boundaries may not yet be set/understood by both persons.

Having sex with somebody unconscious is a different thing, but trying to encourage and wake up partner I would not consider illegal.

Yes she should be angry and she should put him straight to whats acceptable in their relationship, anything more I think is very OTT.

kylith

Jasper79 wrote: »

In the ops case he stopped when she said no, so yes I would say calling it sexual assault is a bit OTT.

He stopped assaulting her when she said no. Assault had already taken place and the OP is fully justified in being uncomfortable around him. We’re it me i’m Not sure I would feel comfortable going to sleep with that person again, and certainly wouldn’t if he had your attitude that this was something that it was ok for him to do.

Jasper79

kylith wrote: »

He stopped assaulting her when she said no. Assault had already taken place and the OP is fully justified in being uncomfortable around him. We’re it me i’m Not sure I would feel comfortable going to sleep with that person again, and certainly wouldn’t if he had your attitude that this was something that it was ok for him to do.

so if he rubbed or back/head or bum would u also consider this assault ?

Again op should talk him tell him its not acceptable and if he does again then there's issues and call it a day .

leggo

Jasper that’s not how it works. Again this is crystal clear in the eyes of the law.

Consent, or lack thereof, doesn’t mean you stop when someone tells you to or continue if they don’t. It means you only proceed with anything if the other party is happy and enthusiastic to. There is no implied consent in a relationship. There’s not a section of the law that says “But when you’re in a relationship, these are the rules.” Consent is consent and lack of consent is lack of consent, relationship or not. Your opinion of the law is irrelevant and if someone made a complaint about you wouldn’t be taken into consideration.

I know people are getting defensive because they recognise some of their own behaviour here, but can we remember there’s a distressed OP here who has clearly described her situation and must be going through a lot of emotions here? Deal with your own defensiveness in your own time if you can’t help her.

Grab All Association

Wasn’t there a German lad imprisoned for this last year?

Jasper79

leggo wrote: »

Jasper that’s not how it works. Again this is crystal clear in the eyes of the law.

Consent, or lack thereof, doesn’t mean you stop when someone tells you to or continue if they don’t. It means you only proceed with anything if the other party is happy and enthusiastic to. There is no implied consent in a relationship. There’s not a section of the law that says “But when you’re in a relationship, these are the rules.” Consent is consent and lack of consent is lack of consent, relationship or not. Your opinion of the law is irrelevant and if someone made a complaint about you wouldn’t be taken into consideration.

I know people are getting defensive because they recognise some of their own behaviour here, but can we remember there’s a distressed OP here who has clearly described her situation and must be going through a lot of emotions here? Deal with your own defensiveness in your own time if you can’t help her.

If that's the case, every couple would ask each either if they are they consenting before having sex. in reality this doesn't happen. Or how would you confirm they are happy and enthusiastic ? Or would it be implied by their actions ?

kylith

Jasper79 wrote: »

If that's the case, every couple would ask each either if they are they consenting before having sex. in reality this doesn't happen. Or how would you confirm they are happy and enthusiastic ? Or would it be implied by their actions ?

You mean you don’t? You just grab your partner, pull off her underwear and stick your willy in without so much as a ‘do you want to’?

The issue here is that a person who is awake can say yes or no, and yes; that yes can be implied by their actions. A person who is asleep can do neither and therefore should not be assumed, especially early in a relationship, to be consenting. What would that guy have done if the OP hadn’t woken up when she did?

Jasper79

kylith wrote: »

You mean you don’t? You just grab your partner, pull off her underwear and stick your willy in without so much as a ‘do you want to’?

No but i will give her a kiss without asking permission, a hug, grab a cheek.
There is an implied level of intimacy in our relationship.

Do you ask permission before kissing or touching a partner ?

There is a difference between myself for eg. grabbing other halfs bum, and a stranger. which one of us would be done for sexual assault ? if a stranger does it it's assault but not partner as there is that implied intimacy .

kylith

Jasper79 wrote: »

No but i will give her a kiss without asking permission, a hug, grab a cheek.
There is an implied level of intimacy in our relationship.

Do you ask permission before kissing or touching a partner ?

There is a difference between myself for eg. grabbing other halfs bum, and a stranger. which one of us would be done for sexual assault ? if a stranger does it it's assault but not partner as there is that implied intimacy .

There is a HUGE difference between a hug or a kiss with someone with whom you are in a relationship and someone deciding to put their fingers in your vagina while you are asleep.

Jasper79

kylith wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference between a hug or a kiss with someone with whom you are in a relationship and someone deciding to put their fingers in your vagina while you are asleep.

To some there is and others there isn't, again it's about boundaries. If it's not acceptable than he should respect that from now on .

GingerLily

Jasper79 wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

There is a HUGE difference between a hug or a kiss with someone with whom you are in a relationship and someone deciding to put their fingers in your vagina while you are asleep.

To some there is and others there isn't, again it's about boundaries. If it's not acceptable than he should respect that from now on .

No - there is a massive difference between the two.
He should have respected her when she said no the first time - not molester her when she fell asleep.

leggo

Jasper79 wrote: »

No but i will give her a kiss without asking permission, a hug, grab a cheek.
There is an implied level of intimacy in our relationship.

Do you ask permission before kissing or touching a partner ?

There is a difference between myself for eg. grabbing other halfs bum, and a stranger. which one of us would be done for sexual assault ? if a stranger does it it's assault but not partner as there is that implied intimacy .

Again, it’s really simple: be sure they actively and enthusiastically want to have sex or be touched. If in doubt? Yeah just ask. It’s not difficult unless you make it so.

leggo

Jasper79 wrote: »

To some there is and others there isn't, again it's about boundaries. If it's not acceptable than he should respect that from now on .

The law is the boundary. If she got him to admit it over text, he could be put in prison and deservedly so.

Jasper79

leggo wrote: »

Again, it’s really simple: be sure they actively and enthusiastically want to have sex or be touched. If in doubt? Yeah just ask. It’s not difficult unless you make it so.

But if I don't ask my other half if want's a bum smack before doing it, do you really think I would be arrested for assault ??

To the OP's isssue I guess she can

1) give the bf benefit of the doubt, advise not acceptable and move on.
2) Dump him
3) Dump him and report for sexual assault.

or any other options im missing ?

Jasper79

leggo wrote: »

The law is the boundary. If she got him to admit it over text, he could be put in prison and deservedly so.

I disagree it would be deservedly, and regardless of what the law says, its 12 people on a jury that decide if somebody is guilty. as per the belfast trial

kylith

Jasper79 wrote: »

But if I don't ask my other half if want's a bum smack before doing it, do you really think I would be arrested for assault ??

To the OP's isssue I guess she can

1) give the bf benefit of the doubt, advise not acceptable and move on.
2) Dump him
3) Dump him and report for sexual assault.

or any other options im missing ?

I would advise the OP to do 2. The only way to know if he takes her unhappiness on board is to wait and see if she is molested in her sleep again, which is rather too late as she would then have been violated twice.

Jasper79

kylith wrote: »

I would advise the OP to do 2. The only way to know if he takes her unhappiness on board is to wait and see if she is molested in her sleep again, which is rather too late as she would then have been violated twice.

I would agree, if she feels she has been assaulted then there's no real going back.

eeguy

kylith wrote: »

You mean you don’t? You just grab your partner, pull off her underwear and stick your willy in without so much as a ‘do you want to’?

Sometimes. Girls like spontenaiety.

eeeee

The OP said no, and he still continued. They expressly did not consent. This is sexual assault. There's absolutely no ambiguity here beeping in a relationship with someone does not give them a right to your body.

OP I hope you're doing alright, and you're being supported and looked after. Mind yourself. Give yourself as much space and time as you need to feel safe again. Get help. The Dublin Rape Crisis Centre are trained to help people in your situation. Really hope you're ok.

kirving

TheChizler wrote: »

Consent is an active yes (explicit or implied through actions), not lack of a no.

OP for me this ticks every box as being wrong and illegal, you'd be fully in your rights to be angry about this.

How can you possibly state that a "yes" can just be implied? Your understanding of what an implied yes is might be different to your partners. You could be put in prison for misinterpreting what you thought a yes was, and deservedly so since you didn't take the time to seek and receive an explicit "yes".

kirving

leggo wrote: »

The law is the boundary. If she got him to admit it over text, he could be put in prison and deservedly so.

Yeah agreed, the law is the boundary for absolutely all human iteration ever. There should be no ambiguity between two people agreeing consent. Anyone who goes beyond pre-defined list of actions should be put in prison, as they have violated consent. This kind of behavior has no place in modern society.

Jasper79

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Yeah agreed, the law is the boundary for absolutely all human iteration ever. There should be no ambiguity between two people agreeing consent. Anyone who goes beyond pre-defined list of actions should be put in prison, as they have violated consent. This kind of behavior has no place in modern society.

The only way for no ambiguity is for both parties to ask the other for consent every time. . In reality this isn't going to happen , especially in a relationship. Or at least none I've ever been in.

Edit. prob to be debated in another thread, not to take away from Ops issue.

Neyite

mod:

Back to advice to the OP please and leave general discussion for another forum thanks.

BadTurtle

eeguy wrote: »

Sometimes. Girls like spontenaiety.

"....your honour".