Boyfriend issue

LegacyUser

I was staying over last weekend in my Boyfriend's Parents house and last Sunday, my Boyfriend tried to iniatiate foreplay so I told him no and to get off me. He was obviously turned on.

I must have fallen asleep and when I woke, he was attempting to perform foreplay (masturbate me), I was so shocked, I told him to get off me and leave me alone. He did get off but I feel so ill upset about this incident. I told him before it happened that I didn't want it.

I didn't tell his Parents the next day because I don't know what to think.

georgina toadbum

How old are you OP?

What he did was bang out of line.

Jenneke87

It's understandable that you are shocked. You told him no and he should have respected that. Instead, he waited until you were asleep, unaware and unable to consent to what he was doing and that's seriously wrong. He literally didn't take no for an answer, what he did was really creepy and would ruin any trust between the two of you, I imagine.
Personally, I wouldn't stay with someone who did that, he showed a serious disrespect to you and I wonder what he might do next time you say no. What's to stop him from doing this again? Sorry OP, but I'd be out of there...

questionmark?

OP that's called sexual assault. Sorry to hear that happended to you.

leggo

^^^ what they said. I’m sorry OP but that’s sexual assault. Your feelings are totally valid and you’ve been seriously violated. Whether he thinks he did wrong or genuinely doesn’t realise it is inconsequential, this is abhorrent behaviour and, if I were you, I’d break up with him immediately.

It’s a lot to process right now, but also consider getting some kind of admission in writing from him (so over text) in case you decide you want to go to the police about it down the line when this all sinks in. You have to consider that he may do this or worse to others down the line too. I’m not saying go to them immediately or anything, you don’t have to do anything beyond looking after yourself right now (if you need to talk to anyone who understands and can help for free, the DRCC have people that you can call who are trained and deal with this stuff all the time and will give you no judgement), just give yourself the option and get some kind of proof without clueing him in that that’s what you’re doing.

Chancer3001

Just for balance I don't know if it's sexual assault.... think that's a.bit far.

Like , has it happened before where you weren't initially in the mood but a bit of foreplay persuaded you? Maybe he thought it was something like that

leggo

If you touch someone sexually without them expressly consenting, it’s sexually assault. OP specifically told him no before going asleep. It’s open and shut, regardless of what he thought.

zapper55

Chancer she was asleep, foreplay wasn't going to persuade her, as you put it. She said no before she went asleep. That should have been enough. Even if she didn't she was in no position to consent while asleep.

silverharp

leggo wrote: »

If you touch someone sexually without them expressly consenting, it’s sexually assault.

my wife is in big trouble so

zapper55

The more I read about lack of understanding around consent on Ireland the more I think updating sex education is vital.

I've had a chat with more than one (male) partner to check what they are and aren't conformable with. I've always been surprised how happy they are to be touched sexually when they are asleep because it's not something I would want. But I sussed it out because it's too important to just assume.

Silverharp your dismissive comment does nothing to increase understanding around consent.

Chancer3001

leggo wrote: »

If you touch someone sexually without them expressly consenting, it’s sexually assault. OP specifically told him no before going asleep. It’s open and shut, regardless of what he thought.

Not in a relationship. come on.

Never grabbed your girlfriends bottom on the sly?

Stole a kiss from her ?

Even cheekier sometimes ...

It's not a stranger on the bus. It's your sexual partner

utyh2ikcq9z76b

I and I'm sure others have initiated on a sleeping partner only for it to turn into a full session, I personally have awoke to being played with, much to my excitement!

listermint

Ah lads don't be falling for this .


I didn't tell his parents he next day.... Obvious wind up is obvious

TheChizler

Rhys Broad Pluto wrote: »

I and I'm sure others have initiated on a sleeping partner only for it to turn into a full session, I personally have awoke to being played with, much to my excitement!

Presumingly this is something you've established between yourselves over time that is ok to do. The OP made her feelings on it while awake perfectly clear before she fell asleep, never mind her feelings on it while asleep.

There's the possible grey area of lack of explicit consent which can be debatable, but in this case there was an explicit refusal of consent. I can't see any grey area here.

leggo

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Not in a relationship. come on.

Never grabbed your girlfriends bottom on the sly?

Stole a kiss from her ?

Even cheekier sometimes ...

It's not a stranger on the bus. It's your sexual partner

I hear what you're saying, but what you're saying isn't this. This isn't two people waking up at the same time and having a bit of fun, this is someone directly saying no and the other person ignoring it.

Also you don't have implied consent from someone just because you're in a relationship with them (unless they tell you as much and consent to that, which they can also take away without notice). There's no grey area there. You always need to have it greenlit in some way no matter how long you've been together.

And 'persuading' someone, as you said earlier, is also a massive grey area. If you touch them while in the act of persuading them when it's a no, you've sexually assaulted them, partner or not. You're best off just having sex with people when they actively want to have sex and don't need their arm twisted. Women are coming out in their droves now talking about how men do this and they see it as a violation and sexual assault, and it is.

GingerLily

listermint wrote: »

Ah lads don't be falling for this .


I didn't tell his parents he next day.... Obvious wind up is obvious

That is a very odd thing to say.

eeguy

leggo wrote: »

If you touch someone sexually without them expressly consenting, it’s sexually assault. OP specifically told him no before going asleep. It’s open and shut, regardless of what he thought.

Wow, then I've sexually assaulted every girlfriend I've had. Funny they wake up and go along with it.

leggo

eeguy wrote: »

Wow, then I've sexually assaulted every girlfriend I've had. Funny they wake up and go along with it.

What a weird thing to confess publicly. Maybe stop having sex with people while they’re asleep? People (including partners of people) are going to prison for it these days.

I had an ex who told me before she had an ex who’d have sex with her while she slept. I don’t think she stopped him and just put up with it. But she was very clear that she saw it as rape and it played heavily into her decision to leave him. Don’t be sure that ‘going along with it’ means they’re loving all of your amazing sex movez, there’s a good chance some of these women are telling people how you used to rape them.

eeguy

leggo wrote: »

What a weird thing to confess publicly. Maybe stop having sex with people while they’re asleep? People (including partners of people) are going to prison for it these days.

I had an ex who told me before she had an ex who’d have sex with her while she slept. I don’t think she stopped him and just put up with it. But she was very clear that she saw it as rape and it played heavily into her decision to leave him. Don’t be sure that ‘going along with it’ means they’re loving all of your amazing sex movez, there’s a good chance some of these women are telling people how you used to rape them.

I don't buy into the whole "every man is a rapist" line of thought, like you need a permission slip from a woman to engage physically with her.
Women love sex every bit as much as men in a healthy relationship.
Seeing as my exes often took advantage of my morning wood I doubt they're crying rape.

Why didn't your ex stop the guy from doing it then? Why was she in such a relationship? Maybe her bf thought she was enjoying it seeing as she didn't stop him? Maybe he's a great guy whos now painted as a rapist by a woman who'd rather put up with sex than say no.
Is he now open to losing his livelihood if your gf goes to the gardai and reports him as a rapist even if he thought he was doing nothing wrong?

Your viewpoint is engendering a culture of fear around sex.

leggo

Right. As a man who hasn't had sex with people without consent, I don't buy into that line either. But I do buy into the fact that you are raping someone if you do have sex with someone without consent, or a 'permission slip' as you call it, because that's literally the definition of rape. The law is very clear there. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. Say that to a judge and watch him laugh at how you think your opinion is a matter of law.

So are you noticing there's a massive slew of women coming out complaining about how men don't understand consent? This is why. My ex didn't stay with him. She left him and has him blocked, she never wanted (and I presume still doesn't want) to see him again and now realises that he was a horrible excuse for a human. But people put up with all sorts in a relationship. Just because they don't stop you doesn't mean they're happy with it, that sounds like something you're just telling yourself because you don't want to ask tbh.

But also, I'm sure many do put up with it and just see it as a downside of the relationship that they can deal with. It's tough to tell. Maybe your partners had low self-esteem and were desperate to have someone so were willing to put up with waking up to you sometimes having sex with their unconscious bodies claiming they loved it? It doesn't really matter. If you had sex with them while they were asleep, you raped them. And if they had sex with you while you were asleep, they raped you. Being in a relationship with someone doesn't give you permanent implied consent and I really, really suggest you educate yourself about that because it's something you very much can go to prison for (and people do).

leggo

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Your viewpoint is engendering a culture of fear around sex.

That fear was already there. It's just you didn't have to feel it until now that people are speaking up. And you should probably be afraid, you've admitted to rape on boards.ie like.

eeguy

leggo wrote: »

Right. As a man who hasn't had sex with people without consent, I don't buy into that line either. But I do buy into the fact that you are raping someone if you do have sex with someone without consent, or a 'permission slip' as you call it, because that's literally the definition of rape. The law is very clear there. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. Say that to a judge and watch him laugh at how you think your opinion is a matter of law.

So are you noticing there's a massive slew of women coming out complaining about how men don't understand consent? This is why. My ex didn't stay with him. She left him and has him blocked, she never wanted (and I presume still doesn't want) to see him again and now realises that he was a horrible excuse for a human.

But also, I'm sure many do put up with it and just see it as a downside of the relationship that they can deal with. It's tough to tell. Maybe your partners had low self-esteem and were desperate to have someone so were willing to put up with waking up to you sometimes having sex with their unconscious bodies claiming they loved it? It doesn't really matter. If you had sex with them while they were asleep, you raped them. And if they had sex with you while you were asleep, they raped you. Being in a relationship with someone doesn't give you permanent implied consent and I really, really suggest you educate yourself about that because it's something you very much can go to prison for (and people do).

But that whole line of thought it's absolutely ridiculous. I was not raped. I would never in a million years so I was raped. I've often been woken up with my gf touching me or having full blown sex with me. And I've done it to her and received positive comments.
So that makes both of us rapists. And we also both enjoy getting raped apparently. Do you not see how stupid this is?

The fact that someone can take something positive and enjoyable in your life and call it illegal is a farce and clearly a " rather safe than sorry approach". Every relationship is different, but applying blanket laws that criminalise couple's having the sex they want to have is wrong.

leggo

You're not understanding this. What you think about the law is irrelevant. The law is still the law. If the Gardai come up to you and put you in cuffs and you tell them you don't accept it because the law is wrong, they'll laugh in your face and put you in the car.

What you describe? It probably means you won't get charged with rape. But you should definitely stop assuming consent and stop having sex with people while they're asleep. My ex, for example, talks about how her ex felt he had a right to her body because he was her boyfriend. It was an abusive relationship like. But if you got his side of the story, it'd probably sounds a lot like yours. I very much doubt he feels he has raped anyone, much like yourself. But the other person doesn't feel that way. And now the world is changing, people are speaking up about things they're uncomfortable with because it's becoming acceptable to do so (in much the same way nobody spoke up about the church for years until the dam broke) and the law around consent is likely to be altered to make this crystal clear, although it is already pretty clear to be fair.

The law is there to protect people from having sex they don't want. That's the point. Maybe your partners don't want you to have sex with them while they're unconscious. Maybe they were just placating you by saying "oh yeah...that was great." That happens like.

eeguy

leggo wrote: »

You're not understanding this. What you think about the law is irrelevant. The law is still the law. If the Gardai come up to you and put you in cuffs and you tell them you don't accept it because the law is wrong, they'll laugh in your face and put you in the car.

What you describe? It probably means you won't get charged with rape. But you should definitely stop assuming consent and stop having sex with people while they're asleep. My ex, for example, talks about how her ex felt he had a right to her body because he was her boyfriend. It was an abusive relationship like. But if you got his side of the story, it'd probably sounds a lot like yours. I very much doubt he feels he has raped anyone, much like yourself. But the other person doesn't feel that way. And now the world is changing, people are speaking up about things they're uncomfortable with because it's becoming acceptable to do so (in much the same way nobody spoke up about the church for years until the dam broke) and the law around consent is likely to be altered to make this crystal clear, although it is already pretty clear to be fair.

The law is there to protect people from having sex they don't want. That's the point. Maybe your partners don't want you to have sex with them while they're unconscious. Maybe they were just placating you by saying "oh yeah...that was great." That happens like.

I do understand you. I do agree that the laws has to be there for occassions where the individuals are not in a healthy, respectful sexual relation.

I suppose my problem is the duality of the situation. What's good may actually be bad. What you think is consual may actually not be. While you think you're having loving sex with your partner you're actually a rapist because she's not enjoying it and wishing it wasn't happening.
It seems farcical that I need to get a clear unambiguous affirmative from my partner to engage in sex evrry single time otherwise I could be a accused of rape and lose my livelihood, friends and family. And even then, she can recant that after the fact and it's my word against hers, where I will nearly always lose, because public opinion always sides with the woman.

Jasper79

Yeah I think sexual assault is a bit extreme.

You are in a relationship with the guy, he chanced his arm and you said no.

It's about setting boundaries, telling him that that's not acceptable when you're asleep/not in mood.

I personally don't mind somebody trying while i'm asleep, previous girlfriends have and haven't minded either. About accepting if it's not for them then don't try it again.

silverharp

leggo wrote: »

The law is there to protect people from having sex they don't want. That's the point. Maybe your partners don't want you to have sex with them while they're unconscious. Maybe they were just placating you by saying "oh yeah...that was great." That happens like.

I know this isn't supposed to be a general debate thread , but there is an inherent contradiction here, in your scenario the other person says "oh yeah...that was great." and you are suggesting that this is placating?, then you might as well say that all consent is placating, you havnt added anything to the picture. If people are in these miserable relationships that you are suggesting then they should break up and find people more suitable to their needs.

leggo

Lads I’m a bloke who’s had sex with my share and I’m telling you: this stuff is not difficult! Just don’t have sex with someone unless you’re sure beforehand* that they want to. If in doubt? Ask! If they’re asleep, you can’t possibly know that. This has genuinely never caused me any difficulty in my life, I don’t see how it breaks some people’s brains tbh.

I don’t get the sleep thing. I’d feel so creepy mounting, or feeling up, someone who was unconscious. Partner or not.

And sexual assault isn’t extreme, it’s what it is, particularly in the OP’s case when she specifically said no. Again the law is not grey in this area, it’s really clear.

*That beforehand is why my post isn’t a contradiction. It doesn’t matter what they say afterwards, consent isn’t a retrospective thing. You have to be sure before anything happens that’s they’re happy with what you’re doing. That’s it.

TheChizler

eeguy wrote: »

IWhat's good may actually be bad. What you think is consual may actually not be. While you think you're having loving sex with your partner you're actually a rapist because she's not enjoying it and wishing it wasn't happening.

It's nothing to do with not enjoying it, and I think this is one of the misunderstandings that gets exposed every so often. It's about whether they consented or not. You can consent and not enjoy (I'm sure it's possible to not consent and enjoy as well, but I'd imagine that's vanishingly rare).

What happened between you and your girlfriends sounds ethically consentual at least, as you had an established pattern in your relationship where you both felt it was ok (legally I'd be unsure as the law says a sleeping person cannot give consent, but maybe consent can be given for when your asleep when you're awake, I dunno). If you have sex with a sleeping person and haven't established that trust and explicit knowledge of what they're ok with in advance then that's pure rape in my book.

In the OP's case there was no consent established in advance, and also to make it perfectly clear consent was explicitly refused before she went to sleep. I don't see any possibility of how that can be ok ethically.

kylith

A) if you have to ‘persuade’ someone then it’s something they don’t really want to do.

if you want to fiddle with someone in their sleep check they’re ok with that kind of thing first. And be aware it could turn nasty for you: it is by definition assault and by law a person cannot consent to assault (it’s a big thing in the BDDM community) so if they decide they’re actually _not_ ok with claiming they said ok 8 hours earlier means nothing.

C) there are other, non assaulty, ways of waking someone up to see if they’d like to have sex rather than going straight for the genitalia. Why not try those instead?

silverharp

TheChizler wrote: »

If you have sex with a sleeping person and haven't established that trust and explicit knowledge of what they're ok with in advance then that's pure rape in my book.

unless they are out of it on horse tranquilizers the general idea is that the partner wakes up sooner rather than later. It would indeed be creepy to have sex with someone who is asleep

TheChizler

silverharp wrote: »

unless they are out of it on horse tranquilizers the general idea is that the partner wakes up sooner rather than later. It would indeed be creepy to have sex with someone who is asleep

But they were fast asleep at the start, how does the likelyhood that they'll wake up and decide if they're ok with it or not make up for that?

Edit: I'm not sure we're supposed to debate in this forum, so to the OP I'll just say this. It's totally ok to feel that what happened to you wasn't ok or was wrong. You explicitly refused consent and they betrayed your trust. It's up to you whether you feel you want to give them an opportunity to regain that trust or you want to take it further, be that break up and keep it between yourselves, bring it to your parents, their parents, or more. But I feel they need to figure out one way or another that what they did to you wasn't ok, or else I'd worry they're likely to do it again, to you or to someone else.