Swastika removed from Nazi Bell in Germany

Pero_Bueno

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43633747

'Anti Nazis' removed it - how ironic.
They don't even see the irony, they are the neo fascists ..

I thought displaying the swastika in public was illegal in Germany anyway, no? Though I'm not sure if a church bell tower exactly constitutes "public display", clearly someone knew it was there if they went to vandalise it. Personally I see it like throwing a bucket of p!ss over a statue of Cromwell or Hitler, I'm not bothered by the gesture and if it's a 20th century artefact then then it's not of such historical importance that we need to be bothered. After all, what the nazis did is still very much fresh in the memories of a lot of people still alive today.

Next, people will be demanding that the Union Jack be removed because of its association with mass murder, genocide, gassing people to death, enforced 'famines', the deaths of tens of thousands of people in concentration camps and so very much else...

CalamariFritti

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43633747

'Anti Nazis' removed it - how ironic.
They don't even see the irony, they are the neo fascists ..

True. The savages. Pales gassing 6 million jews into insignificance really.

kneemos

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Next, people will be demanding that the Union Jack be removed because of its association with mass murder, genocide, gassing people to death, enforced 'famines', the deaths of tens of thousands of people in concentration camps and so very much else...

The Germans still have their flag too.
The swastika is a symbol of the Nazi party and should be eliminated.

Manic Moran

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought displaying the swastika in public was illegal in Germany anyway, no?

It's a little more complicated than that.
There are a number of exceptions to the laws governing the prohibition of the Swastika in Germany, but one of them is historical. If it is being presented in a historical context, the prohibition does not apply. If this bell has been there since 1934, it seems reasonable that it's present in that context. Especially so given that the bell seems to be up inside the church tower, and thus is not exactly publicly displayed.

20Cent

Good work whoever did it.

pleas advice

First they came for the National Socialists..

kneemos

kneemos wrote: »

The Germans still have their flag too.
The swastika is a symbol of the Nazi party and should be eliminated.

The Union Jack is the symbol of the British Empire, which only in the minds of its jingoistic, war-glorifying, nostalgic/delusional apologists is something worthy of commemoration.

Edgarfrndly

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43633747

'Anti Nazis' removed it - how ironic.
They don't even see the irony, they are the neo fascists ..

I don't think you understand what the word irony means.

EPAndlee

The swastika should have stayed. Its part of history

Skylinehead

Deleted User wrote: »

Next, people will be demanding that the Union Jack be removed because of its association with mass murder, genocide, gassing people to death, enforced 'famines', the deaths of tens of thousands of people in concentration camps and so very much else...

Can you not soapbox every thread?

baylah17

Deleted User wrote: »

The Union Jack is the symbol of the British Empire, which only in the minds of its jingoistic, war-glorifying, nostalgic/delusional apologists is something worthy of commemoration.

Would sir like salt and vinegar for the chip on his shoulder?:D:rolleyes:

JohnnyFlash

Deleted User wrote: »

The Union Jack is the symbol of the British Empire, which only in the minds of its jingoistic, war-glorifying, nostalgic/delusional apologists is something worthy of commemoration.

Do you have to wedge in your frankly bizarre hatred towards Britain into every discussion vaguely related to nationalism? Gets very tiresome for the causal reader of the website. Start a blog or something.

_Kaiser_

As said above, this is a part of history at this stage and history which should indeed be remembered (lest we repeat the same mistakes again!)

Unfortunately though that doesn't fit with the more extreme liberal agenda who are seemingly intent on reviewing such events through "modern" eyes and white-washing the bits of history they don't like.

This attitude is arguably more fascist and dangerous than what they're trying to erase.

"Progress", eh? :rolleyes:

kneemos

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Union Jack is the symbol of the British Empire, which only in the minds of its jingoistic, war-glorifying, nostalgic/delusional apologists is something worthy of commemoration.

You can change a national flag,but it's still gonna a symbol of that country.
Unless you think countries such as the UK,US,France,Germany etc shouldn't have a flag.

The swastika is a symbol of a particular party and more importantly an ideology.

Mutant z

Germany really needs to get over its past like seriously its being paralyzed by it.

_Kaiser_

Mutant z wrote: »

Germany really needs to get over its past like seriously its being paralyzed by it.

You could say the same really about certain parts of Irish society as well though... as the recent resurgence of NI threads and gushing about possible unification would show.

kneemos

sugarman wrote: »

Moronic behavior.

As someone big into history, particularly WWI & II, I am fairly disgusted at how much of their history the Germans have tried to destroy over the last century. Particularly in recent years.

The Neo Nazi excuse always pops up, but its absolutely bull****.

A little over 20 years ago, they found Hitlers Fuhrerbunker almost perfectly intact in central Berlin while excavating building apartments. What did they do? Tried to blow it up, but the 6m thick walls were still too strong so they filled the whole thing in with cement and placed a car park over it.

The **** like?

Probably didn't want a shrine for brain dead racists.

Skylinehead

sugarman wrote: »

Moronic behavior.

As someone big into history, particularly WWI & II, I am fairly disgusted at how much of their history the Germans have tried to destroy over the last century. Particularly in recent years.

The Neo Nazi excuse always pops up, but its absolutely bull****.

A little over 20 years ago, they found Hitlers Fuhrerbunker almost perfectly intact in central Berlin while excavating building apartments. What did they do? Tried to blow it up, but the 6m thick walls were still too strong so they filled the whole thing in with cement and placed a car park over it.

The **** like?

Having been there, they're entirely up front about it. Massive Holocaust memorials, preserved concentration camps, the lot. You call that covering up?

And yes, the bunker was filled in to stop it being an inevitable breeding ground for Nazis. Being aware of your past is not the same as covering it up.

Nazis, erased Jewish (and other undesirable) literature in book-burning ceremonies, modern Germans erase swastikas because it reminds them of their history.
The danger is that future Germans may not have these reminders to make them think about not recreating the Nazi party.

Skylinehead

sugarman wrote: »

How would it have been anymore a shrine than it currently is? It was and still is underground. Only difference now is, its filled in. Surely they could have kept it under the car park and preserved it with an unmarked entrance for historians and government officials and the likes. Its a massive piece of history lost.

...and I never once accused the Germans of covering anything up. They've done the opposite as you said, by building dozens of memorials to those who lost their lives at key sites around the country.

But they also dont like referencing anything Nazi or War related, otherwise there wouldnt have been any need to demolish/remove their history. The world gets it, the vast majority of the country (Neo Nazis aside) are ashamed of their history but you cant just erase it. It happened.

Germany had 2 dozen Concentration camps during the war, only 1 partially survives. Hitlers bunker wasnt even acknowledged by a plaque until a few years ago. Theres 2 or 3 dozen other examples and the only reason most sites still exist is because they were re-purposed after the war and only later turned into museums or memorials.

You're defeating your own argument...you say they're destroying history yet there's a plaque there now (why, if they're trying to hide/destroy it?), and "only later" made memorials....seems they're going the other way to what you're claiming.

Capt'n Midnight

another bell widely publicised earlier - but like most was hidden from public view
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43210993

A village in Germany has voted to keep a controversial church bell embossed with a swastika and the words "All for the Fatherland - Adolf Hitler".

The parish council of Herxheim argued that the Nazi-era bronze bell acted as a reminder for the nation's dark past.

Wouldn't take a genius to figure out that there's a good chance that other churches that got new bells in that era might have similar logos.

Skylinehead

sugarman wrote: »

Memorials and plaques are not preserving history. They just acknowledge to an extent what happened in that place. The physical historical remains are what have been / being destroyed and lost.

Put it this way, would the Irish public be happy if we had of knocked Kilmainham Gaol after Independence? Because that was the plan after it was decommissioned. It too was seen as a place that represented oppression and suffering. Imagine it now, leveled, a field... with little more than a plaque in its place. Instead it was fully restored and attracts 500k visitors a year and represents a massive piece of our history.

Or the GPO ...or Parliament house (BOI college green)? or even the removal of all British statues and monuments erected during their occupation?

But the Germans haven't done that either. Sachsenhausen, the Olympiastadion, Nazi creations.

Comparing it to Ireland is a fallacy. The British were here for hundreds of years, they built everything we have, pretty much. Can't tear that down, or you don't have a city. The Nazis? 12 years. And for half that time they weren't building much in the way of grand buildings. Also remember that most German cities were wrecked by bombing, and I mean utterly destroyed.

wakka12

Seems pointless vandalism to me. Its very interesting historical artefact..dont need to support it to appreciate historical significance

wakka12

Deleted User wrote: »

Nazis, erased Jewish (and other undesirable) literature in book-burning ceremonies, modern Germans erase swastikas because it reminds them of their history.
The danger is that future Germans may not have these reminders to make them think about not recreating the Nazi party.

Id hope their moral compass and common sense would prevent rather than old bells with swastikas engraved on them lying around

wakka12

sugarman wrote: »

Moronic behavior.

As someone big into history, particularly WWI & II, I am fairly disgusted at how much of their history the Germans have tried to destroy over the last century. Particularly in recent years.

The Neo Nazi excuse always pops up, but its absolutely bull****.

A little over 20 years ago, they found Hitlers Fuhrerbunker almost perfectly intact in central Berlin while excavating building apartments. What did they do? Tried to blow it up, but the 6m thick walls were still too strong so they filled the whole thing in with cement and placed a car park over it.

The **** like?

Yes there was a plan to demolish hitlers childhood home just last year wasnt there? Pretty crazy alright.

wingsof daun

Skylinehead

History is written by the winners. What about the Eisenhower death camps? How many Germans were genocided extremely cruelly in those?? That's post 1945 (WWII ended in 1945) I might add. We are all supposed to be never forget the holocaust of Jews but the genocide of Germans and other peoples are quickly swept under the rug. A Holocaust in which some of the so-called facts and figures and survivors are somewhat dubious or even, might I dare to call... - fantasy!

Zebra3

I take it the swastikas in the Hofbräuhaus are ok?

spurious

Deleted User wrote:

if it's a 20th century artefact then then it's not of such historical importance that we need to be bothered.

What would your cut off date for 'historical importance' be?

Anne1982h

sugarman wrote: »

Moronic behavior.

As someone big into history, particularly WWI & II, I am fairly disgusted at how much of their history the Germans have tried to destroy over the last century. Particularly in recent years.

The Neo Nazi excuse always pops up, but its absolutely bull****.

A little over 20 years ago, they found Hitlers Fuhrerbunker almost perfectly intact in central Berlin while excavating building apartments. What did they do? Tried to blow it up, but the 6m thick walls were still too strong so they filled the whole thing in with cement and placed a car park over it.

The **** like?

Yes isn’t it awful the Germans didn’t leave it as a tourist attraction so someone big into history such as yourself could go visit it.

Having lived in Germany previously and visited again recently they are in no way covering up the of past or destroying it. There are memorials and concentration camp memorials all preserved. We were told secondary school children visit two concentration camps before they leave school and are taught about what happened. Lest we forget etc.

Anne1982h

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As said above, this is a part of history at this stage and history which should indeed be remembered (lest we repeat the same mistakes again!)

Unfortunately though that doesn't fit with the more extreme liberal agenda who are seemingly intent on reviewing such events through "modern" eyes and white-washing the bits of history they don't like.

This attitude is arguably more fascist and dangerous than what they're trying to erase.

"Progress", eh? :rolleyes:

If you were to visit Germany you would see that this is not the case at all. The Germans are almost at pains to ensure that no one forgets what happened. In particular in nazi Germany. As I said in a different post they even ensure school children visit two concentration camps before leaving school.

kneemos

As long as the History Channel survives the war will never be forgotten.

dav3

wingsof daun wrote: »

We are all supposed to be never forget the holocaust of Jews but the genocide of Germans and other peoples are quickly swept under the rug. A Holocaust in which some of the so-called facts and figures and survivors are somewhat dubious or even, might I dare to call... - fantasy!

Yes you're right, what this thread definitely needs is some holocaust denial.

evolving_doors

dav3 wrote: »

Yes you're right, what this thread definitely needs is some holocaust denial.

Calling Kevin Myres to cleanup on isle 3.

tara73

Anne1982h wrote: »

If you were to visit Germany you would see that this is not the case at all. The Germans are almost at pains to ensure that no one forgets what happened. In particular in nazi Germany. As I said in a different post they even ensure school children visit two concentration camps before leaving school.

?? what should that mean? is there a nazi germany and a non nazi germany these days???

Inviere

If was glorifying Nazism or somesuch, I'd get it...but it's a historical relic, an object of history, and one that reminds us of a truly dark era. To permamently deface it because it goes against your political and social leanings, is akin to a child scribbling over a picture of something they don't like. Pathetic behaviour, but then, I expect that from extreme left leaning nutjobs. They've gone so far left, they've became the thing they hate the most, and they don't even see it.

Maxpfizer

kneemos wrote: »

Probably didn't want a shrine for brain dead racists.

Anne1982h wrote: »

Yes isn’t it awful the Germans didn’t leave it as a tourist attraction so someone big into history such as yourself could go visit it.

Having lived in Germany previously and visited again recently they are in no way covering up the of past or destroying it. There are memorials and concentration camp memorials all preserved. We were told secondary school children visit two concentration camps before they leave school and are taught about what happened. Lest we forget etc.

Why does it automatically have to be a shrine or a tourist attraction though?

Couldn't they just secure the location and have it available to legitimate historians and the like?

There are plenty of historical tourist attractions in the world that you cannot just go in and have a look whenever you feel like it.

Why are people talking as if the only 2 options are "open to the public as a shrine or tourist attraction" or "total destruction"?

The thing about the bell is that it's 84 years old and the end of WW2 was almost 73 years ago. So why the sudden important need to vandalize/destroy it now, in 2018?

Was there a issue in the village with legit Neo-Nazis coming in to treat this bell like a shrine? Was there even a fear that they would?

Mickeroo

kneemos wrote: »

As long as the History Channel survives the war will never be forgotten.

Never forget what those damn Martian Nazi Pyramid building bastards did.

Sonics2k

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This attitude is arguably more fascist and dangerous than what they're trying to erase.

This is quite possibly, hands-down, the absolutely most mind-bendingly stupid thing I have ever read on boards.ie.

How you can compare the removal of the Swastika from a bell, to the mass murder of millions of people across Europe and think anyone can take you seriously, I truly can never understand. You also show a total lack of understanding of German modern culture and more recent history.

The people of Germany are very very aware of their actions in the past, and do not seek to erase their history.

Anne1982h

tara73 wrote: »

?? what should that mean? is there a nazi germany and a non nazi germany these days???

It refers to the era where nazis were in charge of Germany. Read a history book.

Anne1982h

Sonics2k wrote: »

This is quite possibly, hands-down, the absolutely most mind-bendingly stupid thing I have ever read on boards.ie.

How you can compare the removal of the Swastika from a bell, to the mass murder of millions of people across Europe and think anyone can take you seriously, I truly can never understand. You also show a total lack of understanding of German modern culture and more recent history.

The people of Germany are very very aware of their actions in the past, and do not seek to erase their history.

This times a million

jimgoose

I suppose they left "Alles fürs Vaterland Adolf Hitler" intact.

corks finest

Deleted User wrote: »

Next, people will be demanding that the Union Jack be removed because of its association with mass murder, genocide, gassing people to death, enforced 'famines', the deaths of tens of thousands of people in concentration camps and so very much else...

Why not?

pleas advice

sugarman wrote: »

Moronic behavior.

As someone big into history, particularly WWI & II, I am fairly disgusted at how much of their history the Germans have tried to destroy over the last century. Particularly in recent years.

Nothing from the allied side?

super_furry

Not really a good look to be the person defending nazi symbols or telling the Germans how they should deal with their past.

Zebra3

If only some other countries were as committed to Germany is to dealing with its genocidal past.

kneemos

Similar really to cleaning "up the IRA" off your local church Bell.

Except the IRA were like Ghandi in comparison.

Skylinehead

Zebra3 wrote: »

If only some other countries were as committed to Germany is to dealing with its genocidal past.

Skylinehead wrote: »

Can you not soapbox every thread?

You too.

Zebra3

Skylinehead wrote: »

You too.

So you’ve no issue with countries sweeping their genocidal past under the carpet?

Skylinehead

Zebra3 wrote: »

So you’ve no issue with countries sweeping their genocidal past under the carpet?

Like I said, I've issues with the two of you (and others) bringing the Brits up in every single thread. That's all.