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Workplace issue- Holiday whilst on sick leave

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    #32
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    If this is a question specific to Ireland and Irish employees, then ignore the rest of this post ... On the general principle, though, here in France where holidays are a treasured national institution, even they take second place to sick leave. If you're signed off sick, you are expected to remain at home for the duration of your sick leave, unless justified by a trip to the doctor/hospital, and someone will call to your address to make sure you're there (but only during working hours, and not at lunchtime!)

    You mention that your HR is in another country. If that other country happens to be France - or another one with a similar attitude - that might explain why you've experienced the reaction described.

    thats kinna disturbing


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    #33
    Icaras
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Icaras


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Not sure about this statement, for example if one was sick, and ones employer did not pay employees for sick leave, you seem to state that the employee could not use annual leave to cover the time off...
    From my understanding that is a correct statement, I think its in place to stop employers forcing employees to use up their holidays when they are sick.


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    #34
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Is this a hypothetical or actual case you are seeking Legal advice on ???

    Actual case, but not legal advice ....general consensus.


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    #35
    duffman13
    Registered Users Posts: 8,946 ✭✭✭duffman13


    Gabe, I know it's difficult to accept the verbal warning and I'd appeal as a point of principle and as a nail against the employer.

    Realistically if you were to be dismissed following further absence this warning would be laughed out of a tribunal. Did they give 24 hours notice of investigation, then notice of disciplinary?

    Did you return from stress leave when given this or where you still absent when given notice? The lack of stress risk assessment will be highlighted by any good solicitor in an unfair dismissal hearing etc.

    Your are entitled to take holidays in fact actually encouraged at times by medical professionals to do so whilst on sick leave for mental health issues. A change of environment can be very beneficial to help recovery. The company doctor agreed you were suffering from this condition.

    It all seems weird to me, sounds like a UK or US company with no dedicated HR team in the country. Irish law is very pro employee so stick your ground


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    #36
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,765 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    thats kinna disturbing

    I don't think so: If you're too sick to work, then you're too sick to be gadding about the place.

    Especially international travel - airports are very stressful places, more so than most workplaces.

    Unless of course a doctor had prescribed the activity.


    I actually find the policy which the OP was disciplined under more disturbing: there are various reasons why a person may receive treatment outside the Republic - including that the HSE sometimes refer people there.


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    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    thats kinna disturbing

    A statement like that indicates to me a culture of mistrust within whatever company may have such as statement- it sounds like you're under house arrest when sick.

    If you say, had an operation on your leg or hip or something, I'd imagine part of your recovery would be to get out and about walking at some point and strengthen back your muscles and bones.

    Someone came up with that statement because in general, they don't want to see people out and about or on social media when they're stated as being sick.

    And that's fair enough but it could be said in a different way i.e. the company has a duty of care to those staff out sick. It is suggested that employees, where possible remain at home and follow all doctors advice to aid a full recovery.

    In my experience it's the minority who abuse company sick leave and there are other (legal) ways to deal with them over time.


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    #38
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Not sure about this statement, for example if one was sick, and ones employer did not pay employees for sick leave, you seem to state that the employee could not use annual leave to cover the time off...

    Under Irish law there should be clear and concise procedures in place to be followed. However this is a grey area as one, there is not situation that Hr were aware of 2 I know employees who have been out of country and provided sick certs and medical certs from abroad.


    OPEN TO ALL FOR COMENT
    Would people agree that this sort of situation should be included in the policy. The onus being on the employer to avoid any ambiguity ?


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    #39
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Not sure about this statement, for example if one was sick, and ones employer did not pay employees for sick leave, you seem to state that the employee could not use annual leave to cover the time off...

    The purpose of annual leave is to ensure the employee receives appropriate rest. You don't get that while out sick.

    In practice, though not strictly correct, some employers do substitute annual leave for sick leave.


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    #40
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A statement like that indicates to me a culture of mistrust within whatever company may have such as statement- it sounds like you're under house arrest when sick.

    If you say, had an operation on your leg or hip or something, I'd imagine part of your recovery would be to get out and about walking at some point and strengthen back your muscles and bones.

    Someone came up with that statement because in general, they don't want to see people out and about or on social media when they're stated as being sick.

    And that's fair enough but it could be said in a different way i.e. the company has a duty of care to those staff out sick. It is suggested that employees, where possible remain at home and follow all doctors advice to aid a full recovery.

    In my experience it's the minority who abuse company sick leave and there are other (legal) ways to deal with them over time.

    i actually think it shows the absolute complete misunderstanding of complex health issues such as mental health issues, and the fact our employment sector hasnt a clue about them or more worryingly, doesnt want to know


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    #41
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,732 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    thats kinna disturbing

    Not really: the way they see it is that - as an employee - either you're sick and unable to work, or you're not. If you're fit enough to be able to leave the house, there's no reason not to be able to make the journey to your workplace and put in the hours you're being paid for.

    There are ways around the restriction - you can, for example, ask your doctor to prescribe a visit to thermal baths or some other such "curative resort", or you can ask for permission to stay with family elsewhere because they'll be better able to care for you; but ultimately, it's the person paying for your time "at rest" (employer or state) who decides whether or not you should be at home or at work. There's no question of being allowed to go travelling.

    On the other hand, the concept of suffering from work-related stress in France, and needing to be signed off for that reason, is only recently being recognised as a legitimate concern. Obviously, once it was identified as a problem, the natural reaction of French workers to the proposals necessary to reduce it was ... to go on strike! :pac:


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    #42
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    I don't think so: If you're too sick to work, then you're too sick to be gadding about the place.

    Especially international travel - airports are very stressful places, more so than most workplaces.

    Unless of course a doctor had prescribed the activity.


    I actually find the policy which the OP was disciplined under more disturbing: there are various reasons why a person may receive treatment outside the Republic - including that the HSE sometimes refer people there.

    oh deary me, we ve a lot of work to do to try explain the complexities of mental health issues in society


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    #43
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    Not really: the way they see it is that - as an employee - either you're sick and unable to work, or you're not. If you're fit enough to be able to leave the house, there's no reason not to be able to make the journey to your workplace and put in the hours you're being paid for.

    There are ways around the restriction - you can, for example, ask your doctor to prescribe a visit to thermal baths or some other such "curative resort", or you can ask for permission to stay with family elsewhere because they'll be better able to care for you; but ultimately, it's the person paying for your time "at rest" (employer or state) who decides whether or not you should be at home or at work. There's no question of being allowed to go travelling.

    On the other hand, the concept of suffering from work-related stress in France, and needing to be signed off for that reason, is only recently being recognised as a legitimate concern. Obviously, once it was identified as a problem, the natural reaction of French workers to the proposals necessary to reduce it was ... to go on strike! :pac:

    see previous point, thank you


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    #44
    duffman13
    Registered Users Posts: 8,946 ✭✭✭duffman13


    Seechange.ie for anyone who works in HR and would either like more info around mental health issues as an enployer. I did one day with these guys and it opens your eyes no end. Excellent organisation and work with all sizes. OP you should give there details to your employer, might change the perception and mindset


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    #45
    Homer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,267 ✭✭✭Homer


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    oh deary me, we ve a lot of work to do to try explain the complexities of mental health issues in society

    Oh deary me, we’ve a lot of work to do to try explain the complexities of running a business while an employee who’s claiming to be off sick is able to head away on holidays for a couple of days and post on Instagram while away :rolleyes:


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    #46
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Homer wrote: »
    Oh deary me, we’ve a lot of work to do to try explain the complexities of running a business while an employee who’s claiming to be off sick is able to head away on holidays for a couple of days and post on Instagram while away :rolleyes:

    please research mental health issues, theres been some fantastic research done on these issues over the last couple of decades, but unfortunately our social institutions, including our employment sectors, have been very slow to adapt and integrate these findings. i would also recommend talking to people that have and continue to experience these kind of issues, i will remain active in this thread for a while, for obvious reasons. thank you.


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    #47
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    Homer wrote: »
    Oh deary me, we’ve a lot of work to do to try explain the complexities of running a business while an employee who’s claiming to be off sick is able to head away on holidays for a couple of days and post on Instagram while away :rolleyes:

    Homer, don't know if you read the whole thread. It is work related stress (due to bullying and harassment).

    Believe me if you asked me 6 months ago would I have mental health difficulties I would have certainly said not. However, as previously stated I am writing this from an acute mental hospital that I have been in for 7 weeks.

    To put things into perspective I had a very serious road traffic accident years ago and i was in hospital for a much shorter time.

    This was pre planned annual leave purchased in Feb approved in May. And signed off for 2 and a half weeks in Nov due to Wrs. This was not a claim to be ill. This was certified sick absence just at an unfortunate time.

    I had a partner to consider, non refundable trip and the unknown mental health consequences to consider in cancelling. I discussed this woth my gp and they advised me to go.


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    #48
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,732 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    oh deary me, we ve a lot of work to do to try explain the complexities of mental health issues in society

    "Work related stress" has nothing to do with mental health issues in society. Certainly, some individuals with mental health problems may be more susceptible to the "natural" stress of certain work places, but chances are someone with (for example) recurrent clinical depression will suffer debilitating episodes regardless of what job they're doing, or indeed whether they're at work or on holiday.

    But "work related stress" is problem specific to the workplace in question. I know more people who have been signed off "sick" with WRS against their wishes (or who continued to go to work due to external pressures, e.g. needing the money) than have chosen to use it as an excuse for extra time off.

    I also know more employers (especially in small business, and especially in France) who have burnt out and/or have commited suicide because of the stress caused to them by the protection given to their non-performing employees than I know employees who have suffered in the same way.

    Bundling up genuine mental health problems with poor management of the work environment is not going to help either party.


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    #49
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    "Work related stress" has nothing to do with mental health issues in society. Certainly, some individuals with mental health problems may be more susceptible to the "natural" stress of certain work places, but chances are someone with (for example) recurrent clinical depression will suffer debilitating episodes regardless of what job they're doing, or indeed whether they're at work or on holiday.

    But "work related stress" is problem specific to the workplace in question. I know more people who have been signed off "sick" with WRS against their wishes (or who continued to go to work due to external pressures, e.g. needing the money) than have chosen to use it as an excuse for extra time off.

    I also know more employers (especially in small business, and especially in France) who have burnt out and/or have commited suicide because of the stress caused to them by the protection given to their non-performing employees than I know employees who have suffered in the same way.

    Bundling up genuine mental health problems with poor management of the work environment is not going to help either party.

    oh dear! some more facts on this one, terms such as 'work related stress' and 'burnt out' are in fact a 'soft approach' in saying, 'environmentally induced mental health issues', id highly recommend the work of people such as harriet fraad in explaining such matters. thank you


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    #50
    appledrop
    Registered Users Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭appledrop


    In my opinion sick leave is sick leave + I don't think anyone should be going on holidays if they are on paid sick leave from work.


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    #51
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    OmegaGene wrote: »
    This

    100% agree
    If you’re off sick and have annual leave booked it’s cancelled to be taken at a time when you’re better
    If you want to go on a jaunt on the sly stay off social media and block work numbers until you’re back
    This thread has gone off the rails into mental health issues

    You would be cancelling your holiday due to the negligence of another party ie WRS.

    Therefore that is why we are bring mental health into it.

    It's not like saying I have a torn alc and then get found out that I was climbing mountains 2 weeks later


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    #52
    Gabes2016
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Gabes2016


    appledrop wrote: »
    In my opinion sick leave is sick leave + I don't think anyone should be going on holidays if they are on paid sick leave from work.

    Let's say it was a wedding and take the word holiday out of it!?!

    Let's say it was an over night stay in a hotel ?

    Is it that you are saying your signed unfit for work so you are unfit for everything ?


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    #53
    appledrop
    Registered Users Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭appledrop


    In my opinion yes if you are unfit for work you are unfit for all other holidays, breaks away, stays in hotels etc. Otherwise what is the point of paid sick leave if people just take advantage?


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    #54
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    appledrop wrote: »
    In my opinion yes if you are unfit for work you are unfit for all other holidays, breaks away, stays in hotels etc. Otherwise what is the point of paid sick leave if people just take advantage?

    so what should people with mental health issues do in order to become well again?


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    #55
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    appledrop wrote: »
    In my opinion yes if you are unfit for work you are unfit for all other holidays, breaks away, stays in hotels etc. Otherwise what is the point of paid sick leave if people just take advantage?

    Complete and utter bollox.

    It depends on the sickness as well as what the work entails.

    If you've a broken leg and you work from home doing web design you may well be perfectly fine. The same broken leg would stop an account manager from hopping in the car and doing 500 miles and 3 appointments.

    If you're suffering from anxiety then going on holidays away from everything exacerbating that anxiety could well be (speaking from experience) exactly what the dr. ordered.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OP- you've decided to ignore my last post and focus on other posts. So I'm out of this thread.


    Let's say it was a wedding and take the word holiday out of it!?!

    Let's say it was an over night stay in a hotel ?

    Is it that you are saying your signed unfit for work so you are unfit for everything ?


    Best of luck but it's becoming apparent to me what your motivation is on this thread.


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    #57
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Best of luck but it's becoming apparent to me what your motivation is on this thread.

    Not sure it is, if the OP wasn't spending their 8th week in a mental care unit you might be on to something, as it is he's hardly faking it for a long weekend abroad.


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    #58
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Not sure it is, if the OP wasn't spending their 8th week in a mental care unit you might be on to something, as it is he's hardly faking it for a long weekend abroad.

    You couldn't if you wanted to, beds in mental health units are too valuable and scarce and unless the team feels you NEED to be there you'd be shown the door with a referral to the local team.

    You certainly wouldn't be there for that length of time.


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Not sure it is, if the OP wasn't spending their 8th week in a mental care unit you might be on to something, as it is he's hardly faking it for a long weekend abroad.

    (a) I never said OP is faking it
    (b) the original discussion was about a 2.5 week "vacation"
    (c) Since when did you know so much about the OP?


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Gabes2016 wrote: »
    I discussed this woth my gp and they advised me to go.

    And did you tell your employer?


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    #61
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    With regards to the OP here are my thoughts and experiences :

    - Yes you are ABSOLUTELY (there aren't any doubts here) entitled to go abroad while on sick leave. I'm purposely not calling them holidays as you aren't taking holidays when you are on sick leave. When you are on sick leave it's none of anyone's business where you are, in the country or not. Provided obviously the reason you are on sick leave doesn't stop you from going. Claiming to have a broken leg and posting pictures from the slopes in Austria clearly isn't going to go over well. Being off with work related stress/anxiety/depression and posting pictures of you chillin in the south of France, that's perfectly acceptable and in many cases encouraged by medical professionals (alcohol intake aside) and if nothing else a management/hr team should have every interest in the employee recovering as soon as possible.

    - not only are you entitled to travel abroad while on sick leave, you're previously booked days should be refunded (hence you not being 'on holidays') AND you will still accrue days while on sick leave.

    FWIW it sounds like your company (IT I'm going to go ahead and guess) has very similar approach to management and 'support' to my previous employer.

    If you are in hospital there is absolutely no way you should have to be dealing with any work issues. The problem is that...pointing this out to an employer, no matter how politely, generally doesn't go over too well.

    Best of luck with it all.


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