Workplace issue- Holiday whilst on sick leave

Gabes2016

Hi All,

This is my very first post, although I have been an avid reader for years. Im sure this is going to get a mixed reaction:

What are the views on an employee who is off sick, going on holidays during absence?

Being more specific to the above. If an employee has holidays booked through work, months in advance, but unfortunately closer to the date the employee is signed off work, with work related stress. The employee goes on said holiday( don't even know if it should still be called a holiday). comes back and is hit with a disciplinary process on the below ground, from the policy.

"To be eligible under the sickness and accident policy, all medical treatment and certification should be received in the Republic of Ireland."

I hope this opens for good debate.

TIA

Wanderer78

Interesting topic, thank you, and welcome to boards. Holidays and sickness, always a difficult one, but I've always felt, we simply work too much, work is generally a means to an end, we re not here to be worker drones, spending time doing the things we really wanna do with those that are special to us, is far more important, as time on this planet is limited. I've faked many a sick day for such reasons, I've no regrets, but obviously if I was on the receiving end of this, I wouldn't be happy.

BattleCorp

Gabes2016 wrote: »

"To be eliglible under the sicknes and accident policy, all medical treatment and certification should be received in the Republic of Ireland."

TIA

As members of the EU, aren't we allowed to purchase goods or services anywhere in the EU?

I would have thought that going on a holiday would be excellent therapy for someone who is stressed.

duffman13

While off with stress or work related stress my HR department wouldn't touch it. We would do a stress risk assessment when you came back and that would be it. If you had a certain number of absences however you would be invited to an investigation which could lead to disciplinary. This would be following absence policy though and not for a one off instance

If you said you'd a broken leg however that's a different story. So it depends on the circumstances.

If I was off work for any reason (including stress) I dont think I'd personally go on a holiday simply because of the optics and I'd be concious of how it looked which would probably add to my stress. Each to their own though, mental illness is very misunderstood still in Ireland.

Does your company have a dedicated HR department?

Avatar MIA

Is the person being paid while on sick leave?

A holiday while out on stress could be just what the doctor ordered? I don't think the company policy, effectively dictating what kind of medical treatment you should receive, would hold up - strange policy really.

With that said, I don't think this employee is erm, a valued employee by the company seeing as they've started disciplinary proceedings.

Wanderer78

duffman13 wrote:

If I was off work for any reason (including stress) I dont think I'd personally go on a holiday simply because of the optics and I'd be concious of how it looked which would probably add to my stress. Each to their own though, mental illness is very misunderstood still in Ireland.

From a lifetime of struggling with mental health issues, I can also confirm, it is deeply misunderstood in Ireland, but I suspect it's probably a global problem.

Gabes2016

Thanks for all the replies, I thought it would be a slow start being Easter Sunday.

@ Duffman13
Yes I agree to a point. It depends on the circumstances, but the main one being that the holiday was prebooked (with my partner) and pre approved. Employee was signed off work with WRS by their own company doctor, after being given the specific workplace issues( lets just say that it was not workload stress, but management)

Even on the disciplinary document it was stated " you had claimed to be ill "

Company was more than aware of previous mental health issues.

Yes I was getting paid while off sick.

And yes HR are involved, however the in house HR are there " to assist the manager only" whilst our Hr are in a different country

EDit

How does the company even know the employee went on the holiday? I was signed off with work-related stress a few years ago and, for the period of time that I was deemed unfit for work by a medical professional, I had no contact with my company, ie no-one was allowed to contact me and vice versa (this was actually a rule put in place by my HR dept). If, during that period, I had decided to go on holiday, the company would not have known* and I would have been under no obligation to tell them.

*unless, of course, I had splashed it all over social media, as people are want to do these days

Gabes2016

EDit wrote: »

How does the company even know the employee went on the holiday? I was signed off with work-related stress a few years ago and, for the period of time that I was deemed unfit for work by a medical professional, I had no contact with my company, ie no-one was allowed to contact me and vice versa (this was actually a rule put in place by my HR dept). If, during that period, I had decided to go on holiday, the company would not have known* and I would have been under no obligation to tell them.

*unless, of course, I had splashed it all over social media, as people are want to do these days

Unfortunately the manager knew that I was going tried calling me on my mobile( for a made up reason) said he received an international dial tone. Also one of my colleagues took a screenshot of my Instagram story the 24hr mode, i thought a friend:(

Wanderer78

Op I think you have a case here, but proceeding may cause difficulty in continuing your employment with this company and undue stress on you.

TG1

So am I right on the sequence here? due to go on holidays, then signed off sick, then went on holidays, but took the days as sick days?
You 100% are entitled to take the days as sick days if signed off, but I suppose the company's point of view is too sick to work but ok to go on holidays is a bit convenient.
Has the company asked you to attend a company docter to assertain if you are fit to work?
Have you at all times followed sick reporting procedure (certs, notification of absences etc.)
Im not sure a policy worded like that would hold up to a whole lot of scrutiny... I assume you were between treatments/doctors visits while on holiday? However, I presume your sick pay policy has a clause in it about withdrawal of sick pay if there is evidance of abuse of it... And going on holiday during paid sick leave could be viewed as abuse of the sick pay scheme.
If it was me I wouldnt have taken your word for it on the illness and not investigated ( ie through a 2nd opinion from a company doctor) before starting disciplinary proceedings, but every company's procedure is different...

EDit

Agree with Wanderer. The “treatment” for WRS is effectively absence from the workplace and no contact with anyone from the company. As such, where you are and what you doing during that period is irrelevant. That said, it sounds like they are looking for an excuse to push you out and you might be better off just moving on (assuming you can, of course). Good luck anyways.

dixiefly

Gabes2016 wrote: »

Unfortunately the manager knew that I was going tried calling me on my mobile( for a made up reason) said he received an international dial tone. Also one of my colleagues took a screenshot of my Instagram story the 24hr mode, i thought a friend:(

Did the manager learn about the holiday from your fellow employee who took the screenshot or some other way?

Sounds like a haphazard approach to HR in the company.

Some people really do milk the sickness systems but in a case like this where there are stress / mental health issues it is very remiss of the manager to exacerbate things like this.

Gabes2016

TG1 wrote: »

So am I right on the sequence here? due to go on holidays, then signed off sick, then went on holidays, but took the days as sick days?
You 100% are entitled to take the days as sick days if signed off, but I suppose the company's point of view is too sick to work but ok to go on holidays is a bit convenient.
Has the company asked you to attend a company docter to assertain if you are fit to work?
Have you at all times followed sick reporting procedure (certs, notification of absences etc.)
Im not sure a policy worded like that would hold up to a whole lot of scrutiny... I assume you were between treatments/doctors visits while on holiday? However, I presume your sick pay policy has a clause in it about withdrawal of sick pay if there is evidance of abuse of it... And going on holiday during paid sick leave could be viewed as abuse of the sick pay scheme.
If it was me I wouldnt have taken your word for it on the illness and not investigated ( ie through a 2nd opinion from a company doctor) before starting disciplinary proceedings, but every company's procedure is different...

I can confirm that in my opinion I was at times following ie all medical treatment and certification was received in the republic of Ireland.
I was initially signed off by the company doctor.
I think and I say that because i would not be able to prove it my manager still though I was abroad when I obtained my final MC2 cert ( fit to return to work) on the Monday, the holiday database had me off for that day.
And just to avoid any doubt this was not me trying to pull a fast one it is a genuine case.

Avatar MIA

Gabes2016 wrote: »

Yes I was getting paid while off sick.

There was a reason I asked this.

While the policy you referenced wouldn't hold up for disciplinary matters (only receiving medical treatment in the ROI) being paid while out sick is not a statutory requirement of a company and they may be looking for a reason to not pay you.

One other thing, you cannot take annual leave while out on sick leave . But, that may actually be in your favour in that you may be able to still claim annual leave for the time off.

Franz Von Peppercorn

My guess is it depends on what you are on sick leave for. If the company has signed off on sick leave and somebody was seen dancing or skiing, right enough. Holidays are ok for stress.

TG1

Gabes2016 wrote: »

I can confirm that in my opinion I was at times following ie all medical treatment and certification was received in the republic of Ireland.
I was initially signed off by the company doctor.
I think and I say that because i would not be able to prove it my manager still though I was abroad when I obtained my final MC2 cert ( fit to return to work) on the Monday, the holiday database had me off for that day.
And just to avoid any doubt this was not me trying to pull a fast one it is a genuine case.

Is there anything in your sick pay policy about making yourself available for meetings/reviews/company doctor visits while on sick leave?

Gabes2016

Avatar MIA wrote: »

There was a reason I asked this.

While the policy you referenced wouldn't hold up for disciplinary matters (only receiving medical treatment in the ROI) being paid while out sick is not a statutory requirement of a company and they may be looking for a reason to not pay you.

One other thing, you cannot take annual leave while out on sick leave . But, that may actually be in your favour in that you may be able to still claim annual leave for the time off.

Thanks Mia, I do not have an issue if they said they were not going to pay me for it. The issue is that they have given me a verbal warning (unblemished record)

This has obliviously exasperated my mental health to a point that I am writing this from an acute mental health facility, been here 6 weeks

Gabes2016

TG1 wrote: »

Is there anything in your sick pay policy about making yourself available for meetings/reviews/company doctor visits while on sick leave?

Yes there is, and yes I was at all times.

TG1

Gabes2016 wrote: »

Yes there is, and yes I was at all times.

But if they had wanted you in for review while abroad would you have been able to attend? That's possibly the angle they were going through in a disciplinary action, that you breached procedure by not being available at all times.

Teyla Emmagan

As long as you weren't trying to take the holiday as sick leave and not annual leave I don't think there could be a problem. It is not like being off with stress means you can't walk yourself onto a plane and sit on a beach for the week. Again, if you had a broken leg you would have to cancel your holiday but this is different. You could say your doctor recommended it (I'm sure they would). They must have been all very bitter if they were going to the bother of tracking you down on social media though.

Gabes2016

TG1 wrote: »

But if they had wanted you in for review while abroad would you have been able to attend? That's possibly the angle they were going through in a disciplinary action, that you breached procedure by not being available at all times.

Understand that, but they would of had to arrange an appointment first, they did not. Also I was not in the country for 2 and a half working days. As I said it was the company doctor that signed me off initially.

targus

My opinion would be that if you have an illness, confirmed in the form of a medical certificate by a doctor, it really isn't any of your employers business if you go on holiday.

I doubt any HR department would challenge the opinion of a medical doctor.

With regard to sick pay, that's a different topic altogether.

Had you been out on longterm stress leave, and your doctor recommended a trip abroad or a holiday somewhere to ease that stress, there would be nothing wrong with that, at all and your company would fully understand and support it.

If you're out on sick leave and then have holiday leave coming up, there's a decision point you have to make and inform your company- are you still on sick leave now or holiday leave? - remember, they're the ones paying for this.

I think it's something you should have talked over with your doctor first and then provided some form of update to your company. If you go on holiday leave, and come back- what then? Do you go back and say "hey, I've had my holiday leave- thanks for that- now i'm back on sick leave- byee".

It doesn't work like that and it's certainly something the company will take very seriously.

I think you could have done more around communication with your company around current status of health- just my view and obviously I don't have all the details of this situation and maybe you did all of this?

Gabes2016

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Had you been out on longterm stress leave, and your doctor recommended a trip abroad or a holiday somewhere to ease that stress, there would be nothing wrong with that, at all and your company would fully understand and support it.

If you're out on sick leave and then have holiday leave coming up, there's a decision point you have to make and inform your company- are you still on sick leave now or holiday leave? - remember, they're the ones paying for this.

I think it's something you should have talked over with your doctor first and then provided some form of update to your company. If you go on holiday leave, and come back- what then? Do you go back and say "hey, I've had my holiday leave- thanks for that- now i'm back on sick leave- byee".

It doesn't work like that and it's certainly something the company will take very seriously.

I think you could have done more around communication with your company around current status of health- just my view and obviously I don't have all the details of this situation and maybe you did all of this?

Interesting, communication wise I agree. However, it comes down to the reason for WRS.

It was a brief absence 2 and a half weeks, management knew days previous thay I had the trip planned.

The question here is whats the difference in going for a midweek hotel break to let's say Kenmare and the difference between out of country ?

If you claim disability benefit from the department of social welfare then I know that you are allowed to go out of country on a break/holiday ?

If feels as if they are pushing this because the company doctor and my private doctor signed me off WRS.

Gabes2016

duffman13 wrote: »

While off with stress or work related stress my HR department wouldn't touch it. We would do a stress risk assessment when you came back and that would be it. If you had a certain number of absences however you would be invited to an investigation which could lead to disciplinary. This would be following absence policy though and not for a one off instance

If you said you'd a broken leg however that's a different story. So it depends on the circumstances.

If I was off work for any reason (including stress) I dont think I'd personally go on a holiday simply because of the optics and I'd be concious of how it looked which would probably add to my stress. Each to their own though, mental illness is very misunderstood still in Ireland.

Does your company have a dedicated HR department?

No risk assessment of return to work meeting was actioned .

But what about the stress it would cause in not going. ?

Gabes2016

Gabes2016 wrote: »

Interesting, communication wise I agree. However, it comes down to the reason for WRS.

.

Once you're out sick, you're out sick. You get sick pay. If you then decide to go on holiday, without updating your company, what is your manager supposed to think?
Had you said- "hey guys, i've consulted with my doctor- i'm feeling much better now than i was-thank you for your patience- I have annual leave coming up- my doctor has recommended I take this annual leave as he feels it would be very beneficial for me- and on my return, we'll review and hopefully he'll sign me off as fit to go back to work at that point, depending on how i've felt over the holiday- that I understand.

Who pays for what when you're on that holiday is something I'm not sure about but certainly the company now is clear about what you're doing and why.

I wish you luck and hope you're feeling better soon, but the company needs to be informed if you're on sick leave, and then go on holiday- otherwise, it can lead to distrust, which it apparently has in this situation. 2.5 weeks is not a "brief absence".

Icaras

What does the company want out of this Gabes2016? Did they give any improvements/changes needed for the future or did you just get a verbal warning and thats it? 
A verbal warning is generally 6 months on file so really is nothing to worry about unless they are trying to build a case against you.

GerardKeating

Gabes2016 wrote: »

Unfortunately the manager knew that I was going tried calling me on my mobile( for a made up reason) said he received an international dial tone. Also one of my colleagues took a screenshot of my Instagram story the 24hr mode, i thought a friend:(

Is this a hypothetical or actual case you are seeking Legal advice on ???

CelticRambler

If this is a question specific to Ireland and Irish employees, then ignore the rest of this post ... On the general principle, though, here in France where holidays are a treasured national institution, even they take second place to sick leave. If you're signed off sick, you are expected to remain at home for the duration of your sick leave, unless justified by a trip to the doctor/hospital, and someone will call to your address to make sure you're there (but only during working hours, and not at lunchtime!)

You mention that your HR is in another country. If that other country happens to be France - or another one with a similar attitude - that might explain why you've experienced the reaction described.

GerardKeating

Avatar MIA wrote: »

One other thing, you cannot take annual leave while out on sick leave . But, that may actually be in your favour in that you may be able to still claim annual leave for the time off.

Not sure about this statement, for example if one was sick, and ones employer did not pay employees for sick leave, you seem to state that the employee could not use annual leave to cover the time off...