Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

hill16bhoy

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I can't find statistics for this country, but you can be damn well sure rape is a constant threat for prisoners and that it is under-reported too.

I can be damn well sure that it’s not. And do you know why? Because it is not part of our prison’s.... wait for it... culture.

optogirl

Dravokivich wrote: »

Why do we need consent classes?

To me it just seems like something trotted out to look like "an issue" is being addressed.

Channel 4 did a good documentary on sex ed in UK classrooms - eye opening stuff to see how badly wrong teenagers can get it when it comes to all of these issues and more. Education & discussion work.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/sex-in-class

FrancieBrady

kylith wrote: »

Invariably in threads like these women are either naive idiots who should have expected something bad to happen for going back to a man’s house OR man hating feminazis who assume all men are rapists if they don’t go back to a man’s house.

Some men will throw their eyes up to heaven and wring their hands about the death of casual sex and how you can’t even talk to women without being labelled a sex pest, while simultaneously saying that a woman who goes off with a guy and winds up raped brought it on herself for being so stupid, basically.

Others will whinge about it ruining sex when someone suggests taking literally 2 seconds to check with someone if everything’s cool.

Some men will point out that that men aren’t psychic and that women should say no of thy’re not happy while others are saying that men ‘just know’ if a woman is up for it even if she has previously said no to something.

So basically it comes down to the fact that we should trust men, except that we shouldn’t trust men. But we should magically know which men we can and can’t trust, and if we don't we’re feminazis and if we do we should have known not to when something bad happens.

Have I missed anything?

More hysterical over reaction to what is being said.

Women can be raped anywhere, we all know this.

The point is, that just like taking a drink and driving, if you dress in clothes designed to titilate, get so drunk it changes your character and normal behaviour and head off on your own with strangers you dramatically reduce your odds of at least, a nasty experience and at worst being raped.

Maxpfizer

kylith wrote: »

No, but as we’ve seen there are a lot of men who think that a woman going back to his place has automatically consented to sex, or that he’s not a rapist; he just talked her into it, or he slipped it in without asking and she didn’t fight him off so it’s ok.

Can you show a solid example of this?

Someone specifically saying if she goes back to his place then that is automatically consent?

Actually, since you've said there are "a lot" of men who think this can you show 10 explicit examples of that being said?

I don't mean an interpretation of a statement that could be read that way. I mean a few (enough to justify the "a lot of men") obvious instances of people saying that a women has automatically given consent by going back to a mans home.

LLMMLL

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What if your daughter goes upstairs to get her handbag and is pushed onto a bed and freezes? And all your neighbours are asking how she managed to get into that "mess"?

optogirl

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More hysterical over reaction to what is being said.

Women can be raped anywhere, we all know this.

The point is, that just like taking a drink and driving, if you dress in clothes designed to titilate, get so drunk it changes your character and normal behaviour and head off on your own with strangers you dramatically reduce your odds of at least, a nasty experience and at worst being raped.

Please can you stop with the clothing angle. Women in full Muslim dress get raped, Grannies get raped, men get raped, women in tracksuits get raped. Normal people don't become rapists because a girl wore a short skirt. Rapists don't care what you're wearing.

Outlaw Pete

kylith wrote: »

Have I missed anything?

Yes, much of the points being made.

Game Face MCGee

kylith wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

educate the country (I presume you mean young men and boys when you say this) on what tho? not to rape? I would hazard a guess that the vast vast majority of men in this country know not to do this, really look around you at the men you know? are they all budding rapist waiting to pounce, no they are not, get some perspective

No, but as we’ve seen there are a lot of men who think that a woman going back to his place has automatically consented to sex, or that he’s not a rapist; he just talked her into it, or he slipped it in without asking and she didn’t fight him off so it’s ok.

I would disagree, I think a lot of men, again the vast vast majority, see a woman coming back (if its casual sex he is looking for) as 1 set closer to achieving this and not automatic consent.

LLMMLL

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More hysterical over reaction to what is being said.

Women can be raped anywhere, we all know this.

The point is, that just like taking a drink and driving, if you dress in clothes designed to titilate, get so drunk it changes your character and normal behaviour and head off on your own with strangers you dramatically reduce your odds of at least, a nasty experience and at worst being raped.

Why are clothes always brought into this?

I'm trying to think of well known recent rape cases:

1. Paddy Jackson. Nothing to suggest the clothes the girl was wearing were particularly titillating or that it had any bearing on what happened.

2. The "tinder" rape case where a guy met a girl for a tinder date and they went for a drive. Again there was nothing to suggest she was dressed in a particularly titillating way. I think most girls date-wear would be more conservative and casual than their night-out-wear.

3. The woman cycling along beside the Phoenix park. I doubt she was cycling in a miniskirt and boobtube and 6 inch heels.

So is there any reason part of lectures on "safety" is to dress conservatively?

FrancieBrady

optogirl wrote: »

Please can you stop with the clothing angle. Women in full Muslim dress get raped, Grannies get raped, men get raped, women in tracksuits get raped. Normal people don't become rapists because a girl wore a short skirt. Rapists don't care what you're wearing.

Clothing designed to titilate and arouse coupled with excessive amounts of drink will send the wrong messages or result in the wrong messages being received.

They are connected.

optogirl

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Clothing designed to titilate and arouse coupled with excessive amounts of drink will send the wrong messages or result in the wrong messages being received.

They are connected.

Stop telling women what they should or shouldn't wear and to expect rape as a result of a clothing choice. It's not on.

hynesie08

LLMMLL wrote: »

So is there any reason part of lectures on "safety" is to dress conservatively?

I would imagine, although I don't know, that the theory is if you are wearing clothes that are harder to get off, then you lower your chances of being a target.

If an attacker is doing it for sexual relief, surely he'd want to get in and out as easily as possible? ( Pardon the expression)

Game Face MCGee

optogirl wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

educate the country (I presume you mean young men and boys when you say this) on what tho? not to rape? I would hazard a guess that the vast vast majority of men in this country know not to do this, really look around you at the men you know? are they all budding rapist waiting to pounce, no they are not, get some perspective

I think the consent classes and education is for everyone - not just men & boys. I don't now why you would make that presumption. It wont stop the stranger pouncing on you down a lane attack but it might clarify for both men & women what is acceptable behaviour and that being explicit about what you want & do not want to happen can avoid any unnecessary confusion or upset later. I really think the notion of checking in with your sexual partner has to become as routine as using contraception. the real issues arising out of this trial are less about whether it was rape or not, but the absolute inhumanity this girl was treated with - thrown home bloody & hysterical and then called a slut & laughed at by the grown men who used her. That's what people are hoping to change - that manky attitude.

While you say its for everyone in reality its aimed a young men and boys(just look at the medias portrayal of this and the undertone of the concept. its clearly aimed at men and not the population as a whole)
The second point on it is what will it achieve. men go through formal sex education right now, which teaches safe sex but if the STI stats and young pregnancy stats show that "formal" education isn't really doing much is it? so what will be so different about consent classes? other than satisfy a cohort of society who will believe that men are sexual deviant and closeted rapists that need to be controlled and educated.

FrancieBrady

optogirl wrote: »

Stop telling women what they should or shouldn't wear and to expect rape as a result of a clothing choice. It's not on.

Again the sensationalist over reaction.

The point is the behaviour outlined, combined, will dramatcally reduce your odds of a bad experience.
I DID NOT SAY what you are implying.

Game Face MCGee

FrancieBrady wrote: »

optogirl wrote: »

Please can you stop with the clothing angle. Women in full Muslim dress get raped, Grannies get raped, men get raped, women in tracksuits get raped. Normal people don't become rapists because a girl wore a short skirt. Rapists don't care what you're wearing.

Clothing designed to titilate and arouse coupled with excessive amounts of drink will send the wrong messages or result in the wrong messages being received.

They are connected.

no they are not, look at a sat night in town, women are dressed to the 9s in the latest fashion, guess what, most don't get raped. a women can wear what they want and in 99.9% of case don't end up in situations where there is confusion or consent.

zedhead

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

I would disagree, I think a lot of men, again the vast vast majority, see a woman coming back (if its casual sex he is looking for) as 1 set closer to achieving this and not automatic consent.

Of course the majority think that. The majority of people do not commit rape. But you don't know until the rape occurs who has misunderstood the 'bravado' 'bragging' talk to be what it is, just talk. You don't know who is going to get angry when he assumed sex was going to happen and consent is withdrawn and just go ahead anyway. You don't know who is going to assume the lack of no means yes. So we educate and teach people as a whole. We teach people to have more respect when speaking of others. We teach people that casual sex is ok, with however many partners you want but you can always draw a line and say no. We teach people to be communicative so there can be less chance for misunderstanding.

All of these things apply to other things such as harrasment and assault. We teach people that playing games, or playing hard to get is feeding into the confusion around consent. We teach people that its not funny to grab someone in an intimate are unless they are in on the joke and ok with it.

optogirl

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

While you say its for everyone in reality its aimed a young men and boys(just look at the medias portrayal of this and the undertone of the concept. its clearly aimed at men and not the population as a whole)
The second point on it is what will it achieve. men go through formal sex education right now, which teaches safe sex but if the STI stats and young pregnancy stats show that "formal" education isn't really doing much is it? so what will be so different about consent classes? other than satisfy a cohort of society who will believe that men are sexual deviant and closeted rapists that need to be controlled and educated.

Who thinks men are closeted rapists? The women on here saying I'll wear what I like and go to any party I like or the men saying that's foolish? The men & boys we are referring to are our sons, nephews, brothers, husbands, cousins, friends etc - just as very few of them are deviants, very few people believe all men to be so. I think young boys & girls need better sex education - the focus at the moment is very much on STIs and not getting pregnant and one-off encounters. There is very little on the amount of fun you can have - in particular the amount of safe fun you can have. There is very little on what is good practice in a sexual relationship & what are good ways of communicating with each other. All of this can surely only help. All young people can be taught to have more confidence in these relationships & be more explicit about what is OK and what is not and how to approach those conversations with your partner.

FrancieBrady

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

no they are not, look at a sat night in town, women are dressed to the 9s in the latest fashion, guess what, most don't get raped. a women can wear what they want and in 99.9% of case don't end up in situations where there is confusion or consent.

Which bit of my post said 'they would get raped'?

I outlined a combination of things that would reduce the odds of you having a bad experience.
From assault up to and including rape.

Triceratops Ballet

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Clothing designed to titilate and arouse coupled with excessive amounts of drink will send the wrong messages or result in the wrong messages being received.

They are connected.

hynesie08 wrote: »

I would imagine, although I don't know, that the theory is if you are wearing clothes that are harder to get off, then you lower your chances of being a target.

If an attacker is doing it for sexual relief, surely he'd want to get in and out as easily as possible? ( Pardon the expression)

Except that this totally ignores the fact the most rapes occur between people who already know each other, and probably see each other in various different clothing combinations.

For those that do not know their victims rape is often less about sexual gratification and more about power. They identify a weak/vunerable target they can dominate and have power over.

Entertaining the idea that "skimpy outfits" lead you to getting raped, is incredibly patronising to men as well as women, you really think that men are such animals that they'll lose all sense of reason and decency when presented with some woman in a short skirt and heels?

joe40

Maxpfizer wrote: »

Can you show a solid example of this?

Someone specifically saying if she goes back to his place then that is automatically consent?

Actually, since you've said there are "a lot" of men who think this can you show 10 explicit examples of that being said?

I don't mean an interpretation of a statement that could be read that way. I mean a few (enough to justify the "a lot of men") obvious instances of people saying that a women has automatically given consent by going back to a mans home.

If you mean on this thread then no I haven't seen any posters here say that is their opinion.
However that must be the opinion of a sizeable number of men in society, otherwise why would it be irresponsible/risky behaviour for a woman to do that

optogirl

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again the sensationalist over reaction.

The point is the behaviour outlined, combined, will dramatcally reduce your odds of a bad experience.
I DID NOT SAY what you are implying.

Why is it that every time a woman posts here you call them hysterical or sensationalist? I see absolutely no hysteria from anyone but I do see a lot of outdated rubbish with no grounding in fact.

hynesie08

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Except that this totally ignores the fact the most rapes occur between people who already know each other, and probably see each other in various different clothing combinations.

For those that do not know their victims rape is often less about sexual gratification and more about power. They identify a weak/vunerable target they can dominate and have power over.

Entertaining the idea that "skimpy outfits" lead you to getting raped, is incredibly patronising to men as well as women, you really think that men are such animals that they'll lose all sense of reason and decency when presented with some woman in a short skirt and heels?

I didn't take a side in the debate, just gave my thoughts on why they'd say it.

Game Face MCGee

zedhead wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

I would disagree, I think a lot of men, again the vast vast majority, see a woman coming back (if its casual sex he is looking for) as 1 set closer to achieving this and not automatic consent.

Of course the majority think that. The majority of people do not commit rape. But you don't know until the rape occurs who has misunderstood the 'bravado' 'bragging' talk to be what it is, just talk. You don't know who is going to get angry when he assumed sex was going to happen and consent is withdrawn and just go ahead anyway. You don't know who is going to assume the lack of no means yes. So we educate and teach people as a whole. We teach people to have more respect when speaking of others. We teach people that casual sex is ok, with however many partners you want but you can always draw a line and say no. We teach people to be communicative so there can be less chance for misunderstanding.

All of these things apply to other things such as harrasment and assault. We teach people that playing games, or playing hard to get is feeding into the confusion around consent. We teach people that its not funny to grab someone in an intimate are unless they are in on the joke and ok with it.

Consent as a formal education class will not address this type of person TBH, We don't need to "teach" people about respect, most have it naturally, and the ones that don't, again formal education won't make a difference. There are angry and bad people out there, and always will be.

Triceratops Ballet

hynesie08 wrote: »

I didn't take a side in the debate, just gave my thoughts on why they'd say it.

and these are just my thoughts on why that's wrong?!

Game Face MCGee

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

no they are not, look at a sat night in town, women are dressed to the 9s in the latest fashion, guess what, most don't get raped. a women can wear what they want and in 99.9% of case don't end up in situations where there is confusion or consent.

Which bit of my post said 'they would get raped'?

I outlined a combination of things that would reduce the odds of you having a bad experience.
From assault up to and including rape.

if you believe what a woman wears has any bearing on the risk of her being assaulted, then you need to check yourself,

Appledreams15

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again the sensationalist over reaction.

The point is the behaviour outlined, combined, will dramatcally reduce your odds of a bad experience.
I DID NOT SAY what you are implying.

What do you want women to wear: hijabs?

Appledreams15

optogirl wrote: »

I think the consent classes and education is for everyone - not just men & boys. I don't now why you would make that presumption. It wont stop the stranger pouncing on you down a lane attack but it might clarify for both men & women what is acceptable behaviour and that being explicit about what you want & do not want to happen can avoid any unnecessary confusion or upset later. I really think the notion of checking in with your sexual partner has to become as routine as using contraception. the real issues arising out of this trial are less about whether it was rape or not, but the absolute inhumanity this girl was treated with - thrown home bloody & hysterical and then called a slut & laughed at by the grown men who used her. That's what people are hoping to change - that manky attitude.

SO is a monster. I feel chills looking at him. He also used the worst language.

tritium

kylith wrote: »

HArdly the same thing. Big Bad Rapists know what thwy’re Doing is wrong, but the guy throwing an extra vodka into a girl’s glass so she gets drunk faster probably wouldn’t see himself as a Rapist, even though what he’s doing is pretty skeevy. Consent classes would be for all young people and would focus on ‘if you have to badger her into it then she probably doesn’t want to’ and ‘take 2 seconds to check your sexual partner would like to try the thing with the chains and ball weights before you get them out’.

Jesus, is it really so difficult to see that on this case the two parties have very different views of the level of consent of hat was sought and given. No-one forced drink down either her or Jackson’s throat. Both sides were realistically too drunk to consent to anything, The reality in this case is while she is unlikely to be lying neither are the four men. Trying to paint this case in black and white is frankly nonsense.

Five lives are now ruined because of a lack of maturity with respect to drink and an inability by any of them to communicate clearly. Maybe those are the things we should look to fix. While there’s frankly plenty of blame to go around here they’ve all still paid a price well in excess of that.

Fann Linn

Appledreams15 wrote: »

I wouldn't think that a man coming back to my house means he wants to have sex.

I would never make that presumption.

I wish I hadnt read this thread.

Women shouldn't wear this. Women shouldn't go there.

Not that I think that it is my fault for doing either of these things, but has shown me the very worrying mentality of some men.




I am going to be volunteering with Syrian refugees in June in Turkey. This thread has genuinely put fear into my mind. Will I be safe? Should I not go? Is this thread how many men think?

Its not like anything nasty has ever happened in Cologne or Stockholm. It's just Ireland with the rape culture.
You should be grand.

Triceratops Ballet

Game Face MCGee wrote: »

Consent as a formal education class will not address this type of person TBH, We don't need to "teach" people about respect, most have it naturally, and the ones that don't, again formal education won't make a difference. There are angry and bad people out there, and always will be.

respect is very much something you learn, if it wasn't possible to teach people things like that why do kids sit learning about morality and ethics in religion classes.
I don't think specific consent classes are needed, but I do thing young people would benefit from it being an integral part of sex ed. What is consent? what does it look/sound like, how do you assertively say yes or no. It's all part of a bigger conversation about sexuality that doesn't centre around "don't have sex because you will get pregnant and or and STD"